Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Thanks for reposting the links! I must have been blind...

Lots of weird thoughts about how to Orks now. No idea how bad my next list will be, not very good probably..

Was jokingly thinking about loads of grots before I knew they have a save of +7 now. Kinda sucks for 5 PPM...

I'm thinking about an MSU boys list for sure now with just one or two large mobs. Just so much to unpack still. I think Storm boys are looking good and had been planning a list featuring them. I have 60 I'd like to plop on to the table. I can still field my Warboss so I'm happy about that.
Tempted to try the Boss Bunkas on tellyporta pad loaded with burnas or shoora boys, maybe lootas and just see what happens. Sounds like a lot of Cp to throw that way.
Have to stack that with Kommandos to make sure I have some possible landing spots, don't want to be screened out of a drop zone.

Madness.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
why was zodgrod even added to the pre order package?

Hes a useless glorified runtherd, and grots have already been super gutted this edition.

Yeah, I don't know. The wild thing is, I run an all-grot army list, and I have zero use for zogrod. whatever unit of grots I choose to buff, that's just gonna be the one my opponent targets instantly.

They can't all be winners I guess! Never forget folks: GW always makes every new release OP so that people will buy them!

Runtherds have also been completely nerfed. they cant even auto pass morale for grots anymore with the squighounds. Given that grots suffers heavily from morale now, and our mek gunz also come in units so morale is now a thing, they could at least help with dealing with morale.

That runtherds have an aura that combats the cowardice ability of grots as the only thing is just sad..

Engage in all fronts will be so easy to do with our greatly improved kommandos and stormboyz, I really don’t see any other battlefield supremacy objective ever making the cut. Other than green tide, the rest of these secondaries are total trash (and even green tide ain’t so great).

Anyway secondaries are really 9th éditions weak point

I am pretty disappointed that our secondaries are pretty much non-starters for the most part. I was hoping some of the nuance of this new book would come with the objectives at some level, but again there seems to be a real disconnect for this book when it comes to how things come together. I'm not sure if its because the book was rushed or if the playtesters/rulewriters were all on different pages but it feels like the codex really feels slapped together.

So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.

If you're going to run boy equivalents on foot, why not use these guys after you get your 3 troops.

And Snikrot gives them +1 to hit. And Snikrot ain't too bad either with his 5++, -2 AP and 2 damage attacks.

I don't really think the Blood Axe strategem synergizes very well with them but they get a ton of odds and ends as it is. I think it'd be kind of neat to run them as Blood Axes with Snikrot, but they're kinda good regardless. With Goffs they would pack a serious punch with the +1 to wound in terrain. The cheaper Power Klaw means they really don't cost much more than Boys either, at only 5 points more per kitted mob.

Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.

If "trukk boyz" swap their key word for "trukk boyz" then how will they get into a trukk which doesn't change its keyword when a trukk says it can only take freebootas and <clan> infantry?

they cant, thats the fundamental issue with all subkultures. Suddenly they dont get auras, most strats, command buffs, or transport access.
Most of them are worthless for that fact and trukkboyz is literally impossible to use until they fix that crap.

 TedNugent wrote:
So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.

Have you every played with kommandos recently? The fact they can me 9” away from enemy before turn one means, they are dead on the end of turn one. They die whenever anything looks at them and they hit like a wet noodles. Good for killing guardsman, that is all. They had only 2 advetages. They were the cheapest obsec and free deepstrike, so you was able to drop them somewhere, where nobody is, hide there and score for enage/scramblers/linebreaker and win the contest “who has more cheap bodies on objective in the far corner”. All gone. Only thing you can do with them now is put them in front of some fast non-flying CC focused dudes to deny them the Alpha strike. Like…. Some tyranids without the wings… some rare deamosn without the wings…. is there something else? The most of I want to block in his deploy has a wings or can walk over infantry.

Sorry I' m so rude, but i ' ve finaly read throw the leaked rules and I 'm very disappointed. So you get the punch instead of GW, sorry mate

Generaly - it' s super boring. Mostly wasted paper. Just very few strategems/traits whatever actualy do anything worth to even read. Half of them are cripled old abilities and the rest just new junk. Useless secondaries. Same weapons has different profiles. No connection to FW units. Mehh….

KMB Dread can douple its shooting ability. One Dread. Have to be in separate unit alone. And it seems to be badly written so the FAQ will limit it to one weapon I guess.

Someone called it hot garbage. No. It ' s very cold garbage.

They try to balance the impotence of abilities by sale of point costs and some boost in shots on. Scrapjet is obvious winner in this contest with masive sale, 50% more shots and stacking of attacks in CC and Spiked Ram. Does it work? No idea. I can' t say. It is just boring. BOOORRIIIING. It' s just in style “take the units on table, use command reroll and this two abilities and do it all the time again and again…” just roling dices….

All dramatic moves likes teleoporting dragstas, or doublecharge with vehicles, epicly fighting twice dying warbosses, returning boyz like unstopable green tide, kamikadze yets…. Gone. Just +/- 1 on something, mostly irelevant like save in the the meta with AP-2 everywhere.

Old “boring” Ramming Speed looks like a bright star now.

To be fare, I skipped all Snagga stuff, because I 'm not interested in AOS. So maybe there is something interesting….

Or did I missed something?

And Dakkadakka changed my rank from Leadfooted Trukkdriver to Smoking Skorcha… this is a really a bloody evening…

 Tomsug wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.

Have you every played with kommandos recently? The fact they can me 9” away from enemy before turn one means, they are dead on the end of turn one. They die whenever anything looks at them and they hit like a wet noodles. Good for killing guardsman, that is all. They had only 2 advetages. They were the cheapest obsec and free deepstrike, so you was able to drop them somewhere, where nobody is, hide there and score for enage/scramblers/linebreaker and win the contest “who has more cheap bodies on objective in the far corner”. All gone. Only thing you can do with them now is put them in front of some fast non-flying CC focused dudes to deny them the Alpha strike. Like…. Some tyranids without the wings… some rare deamosn without the wings…. is there something else? The most of I want to block in his deploy has a wings or can walk over infantry.

Sorry I' m so rude, but i ' ve finaly read throw the leaked rules and I 'm very disappointed. So you get the punch instead of GW, sorry mate

Generaly - it' s super boring. Mostly wasted paper. Just very few strategems/traits whatever actualy do anything worth to even read. Half of them are cripled old abilities and the rest just new junk. Useless secondaries. Same weapons has different profiles. No connection to FW units. Mehh….

KMB Dread can douple its shooting ability. One Dread. Have to be in separate unit alone. And it seems to be badly written so the FAQ will limit it to one weapon I guess.

Someone called it hot garbage. No. It ' s very cold garbage.

They try to balance the impotence of abilities by sale of point costs and some boost in shots on. Scrapjet is obvious winner in this contest with masive sale, 50% more shots and stacking of attacks in CC and Spiked Ram. Does it work? No idea. I can' t say. It is just boring. BOOORRIIIING. It' s just in style “take the units on table, use command reroll and this two abilities and do it all the time again and again…” just roling dices….

To be fare, I skipped all Snagga stuff, because I 'm not interested in AOS. So maybe there is something interesting….

Or did I missed something?

Echo this 100% the codex is an absolute train wreck.

Just watching "new" orks get absolutley destroyed by the 8th edition T'au codex on art of war. Its not even a game.

Now imagine that vs. Ad Mech and Drukhari.

 office_waaagh wrote:
Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.

Agree. 2 x 11+ Grotz hiding in the backfield scores both Octarius and Green Tide at the same time. Add a Stormboy mob for more Octarius or go BA and put some cheap infantry into Reserve after deploy and pop them out Turn 3. Little effort compared to Engage which gives 3VP if you are in every quarter and keeps feeding the opponent kill VP while weakening your own army.

Pickled_egg wrote:

Echo this 100% the codex is an absolute train wreck.

Just watching "new" orks get absolutley destroyed by the 8th edition T'au codex on art of war. Its not even a game.

Now imagine that vs. Ad Mech and Drukhari.

Be careful. There could be some strong builds. I ' m not able to judge, I 'm a bloody amateur.

I just see it' s super boooorriiiingg.

Kommandos...paper thin? Did you miss that they're 10pt t5 3+sv models if you give them light cover maybe?

Beardedragon wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
why was zodgrod even added to the pre order package?

Hes a useless glorified runtherd, and grots have already been super gutted this edition.

Yeah, I don't know. The wild thing is, I run an all-grot army list, and I have zero use for zogrod. whatever unit of grots I choose to buff, that's just gonna be the one my opponent targets instantly.

They can't all be winners I guess! Never forget folks: GW always makes every new release OP so that people will buy them!

Runtherds have also been completely nerfed. they cant even auto pass morale for grots anymore with the squighounds. Given that grots suffers heavily from morale now, and our mek gunz also come in units so morale is now a thing, they could at least help with dealing with morale.

That runtherds have an aura that combats the cowardice ability of grots as the only thing is just sad..

makari shares his ld with all Goff grots and zodgrod can make any grot unit specials

I kinda like 12in burna on kommandos that +1 to wound helps them

3+?

*rummages through leaks*

wait wtf their extra cover rule says "receives benefit of cover, add 2 to their save" instead of "when receiving benefit of cover add 2 instead of 1 to their save"

10 bucks they faq that. 3+ kommandos is nutty.

Waaaagh and Speedwaaahg are another example. Make an ork rule about one masive warboss warcry per game and do not make mandatory to really warcry loudly around the table and make mandatory for all other ork players in the room to repat the warcry…. I call it epicly lost opportunity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Kommandos...paper thin? Did you miss that they're 10pt t5 3+sv models if you give them light cover maybe?

Well, T5 is more important improving their surrviability I guess, but your are right, new kommandos are different than the old kommandos, but that is not a point. If you put them 9” in front of any army before T1 their are dead until the end of the turn anyway

 TedNugent wrote:
So, Kommandos are actually good. They basically get to be 9" away from enemy models, 6" movement speed, +2 to armor save from cover, +1 to wound within terrain feature, they get power klaws for 5 points on the nob, plus a breacha ram for 5 points and bomb squigs for 5 points.

If you're going to run boy equivalents on foot, why not use these guys after you get your 3 troops.

And Snikrot gives them +1 to hit. And Snikrot ain't too bad either with his 5++, -2 AP and 2 damage attacks.

I don't really think the Blood Axe strategem synergizes very well with them but they get a ton of odds and ends as it is. I think it'd be kind of neat to run them as Blood Axes with Snikrot, but they're kinda good regardless. With Goffs they would pack a serious punch with the +1 to wound in terrain. The cheaper Power Klaw means they really don't cost much more than Boys either, at only 5 points more per kitted mob.

more or less any given ork HQ at this point gives someone +1 to hit.

Not a whole lot of nuance there

 Scactha wrote:

 office_waaagh wrote:
Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.

Agree. 2 x 11+ Grotz hiding in the backfield scores both Octarius and Green Tide at the same time. Add a Stormboy mob for more Octarius or go BA and put some cheap infantry into Reserve after deploy and pop them out Turn 3. Little effort compared to Engage which gives 3VP if you are in every quarter and keeps feeding the opponent kill VP while weakening your own army.

Green tide secondary mission only works with ork keyword from what I understand when reading it, so no green tiding with grots. What is everyone s interpretation on this?

Oh and anyone who thinks kommandos are trash simply can’t be a very competitive player. If you think they are just OK I can roll with that (you will change your mind eventually is what I think, unitil they get nerfed anyway), but trash… with current tables filled with L shaped LOS blocking terrain (in WTC anyway) they will rule ! Perhaps snakebite would be good to help them survive turn one. Initially I was thinking Goff for the impact.
Oh and the distraction grot gives then a +1 to wound once per game “even without terrain”. Perhaps not everyone who thinks kommandos are trash had that info. To me kommandos feel pushed, you can tell they have new models on the way for them…

Feel like the kommandos are missing some weapons on that image leak. Where's the sniper rifle?

I do love the multiple of every 10 have 1x. Get enough of them and not a single ork will be a plain jane!

because gretchin are orks?

Ork is the faction not a unit tag. Nothing has Ork for a unit type tag, theyre all
ORK, <CLAN>

and then a separate section for the other stuff (troop, vehicle, gretchin, boy, etc)

This is literally the same way it works in the current dex too.

 addnid wrote:

 Scactha wrote:

 office_waaagh wrote:
Advantage of grots is the same as always, they can complete actions, they're non-trivial to remove, and everything your opponent puts into killing them is not going to killing your boyz. My experience has been that making your opponent choose between killing the units that are scoring points and the ones that are going to murder him next turn is really useful, so I don't see myself not throwing a couple of ten-strong grot mobs into my first few lists at least.

Agree. 2 x 11+ Grotz hiding in the backfield scores both Octarius and Green Tide at the same time. Add a Stormboy mob for more Octarius or go BA and put some cheap infantry into Reserve after deploy and pop them out Turn 3. Little effort compared to Engage which gives 3VP if you are in every quarter and keeps feeding the opponent kill VP while weakening your own army.

Green tide secondary mission only works with ork keyword from what I understand when reading it, so no green tiding with grots. What is everyone s interpretation on this?

Gretchin have the orks keyword.

Is anyone keeping a list of all the broken crap in this codex to send to the FAQ team?

Unfortunately confirmed that Dakka weapons have no secondary clause, ES get hosed in that regard.

Gretchin don't kulturs, and confirmed to have no Obsec baseline.

https://imgur.com/a/7TMYlui

 Grimskul wrote:
Unfortunately confirmed that Dakka weapons have no secondary clause, ES get hosed in that regard.

Gretchin get kulturs, but confirmed to have no Obsec baseline.

https://imgur.com/a/7TMYlui

Gretchin do NOT get kulturs. It specifically says it in two different places.

Ok for that keyword thing, so green tide could work, but we would need to keep two 11-15 grot mobs out of harms way for the whole game. Engage on all fronts on the other hand, with all the stuff we have that wants to go straight to our opponents face… I guess green tide and banners would allow us to play cagey…

Gretchin do not get kultures, it says under the CLAN KULTURES rule that "All ork <clan> units (other than grechin)..."

Also i dont know where people are getting this "gretchin arent obsec" thing from. Theres nothing on their datasheet about it and obsec for troops is a core rule not a codex rule.

My bad, I think I skimmed it too quickly. In that case yeah, grots are complete garbo as expected.

The part where they say gretchin aren't obsec is right under where it says Detachment abilities.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gretchin do not get kultures, it says under the CLAN KULTURES rule that "All ork <clan> units (other than grechin)..."

Also i dont know where people are getting this "gretchin arent obsec" thing from. Theres nothing on their datasheet about it and obsec for troops is a core rule not a codex rule.

"Troops units (excluding Gretchin) ... get the objective secured ability."

Big mek in MA w/ KFF is 115 pts vs 85 for the standard mek, and you get a 2+ save, a built in KMB/kombi weapon, and a built in power klaw. He actually might be a take.

Rokkit kans are 55 pts, don't get kultur, and can't get kustom jobs unless you run a mekshop. Not as good as we thought.

Deff dreads can only take a kustom job if you run a single dread. Not as good as we thought. Their preferred loadout is probably 1 full melee, 2 w/ 3 skorchas and 1 klaw in a tellyporta. Pretty much identical to previous codex just a little cheaper and no cool stratagem for waxing infantry.

ah, yup there it is.

Wtf is even the point of gretchin existing? They cost the same as stuff that doesnt get slapped left and right with restrictions but are not even half as useful as anything similar to them.
sometimes i swear GW never thinks people buy models that arent brand brand new. The only thing people dont buy are the totally worthless units or CrapCast because they are terrible models.

You cant even give Kanz the Boomboyz subkulture, they are literally the only blast-toting unit (outside of FW) that is denied it. Like wtf....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ah, yup there it is.

Wtf is even the point of gretchin existing? They cost the same as stuff that doesnt get slapped left and right with restrictions but are not even half as useful as anything similar to them.
sometimes i swear GW never thinks people buy models that arent brand brand new. The only thing people dont buy are the totally worthless units or CrapCast because they are terrible models.

Gretchin got the cultist treatment in effect. They really didn't like seeing Grots being the cornerstone of filling out detachments back in 8th ed like how Cultists did for CSM. So when CSM updates start coming around, they made sure to slap cultists with endless rounds of nerfs and only recently have they succeeded in finally curbing their usage in CSM lists (mainly because soup still exists for Chaos). I feel like for us, it wasn't enough that they shot up to 5ppm, our book was probably shortly after the core rulebook released and that meant there weren't enough stats in tournies (thanks COVID) for them to realize most players had already stopped taking grots and thus took extra measures to ensure grots were persona non grata in our own codex.

Extremely dumb and it just goes to show how little GW care about internal balance in our codex.

issue is gretchin have other units than just grot squads, so its shafting multiple units.
Also cultists arent denied literally every single rule their army has. Grots get nothing, not even a subkulture anymore.
Why they dont just flatout cut them from the codex is beyond me since surely it'd be easier than systematically removing every single thing they could possibly boost themselves with.
Grot squads, the only troop in the game w/o obsec. Cause that makes sense.
Still cost the same as a guardsmen though.