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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, if the C'tan is actually the crystal in its chest, why would it care if the construct stabs it in the neck?

Because the neck is the manifestation from the Crystal - destroy the manifestation and the energies likely retreat back to the shard. Or they are lost and the shard has to recuperate its energies. Have to say I really like this model all the more - the idea that its got a canoptek rider; the swirling energies and the optional faces!

The shard of the c'tan is just that a shard. It still needs focus and/or a body to be able to do anything. Hence the Necrodermic body

I presumed the Canoptek would sink in its mandibles, then use its tail to Earth the energies?

 Overread wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, if the C'tan is actually the crystal in its chest, why would it care if the construct stabs it in the neck?

Because the neck is the manifestation from the Crystal - destroy the manifestation and the energies likely retreat back to the shard. Or they are lost and the shard has to recuperate its energies. Have to say I really like this model all the more - the idea that its got a canoptek rider; the swirling energies and the optional faces!

Yeah ok that's fair. A little inconsistent with the other models though, as they lack a canoptek control unit, but they are pretty old and were released prior to the retcon.

Aye, plus I'd expect if we got the old C'Tan updated they'd be as big as the new one along with the greater demons. The only one that will then be a bit odd is the one that comes with the Obelisk; but that could easily move to being a lesser C'Tan shard in the future.

 Overread wrote:
Aye, plus I'd expect if we got the old C'Tan updated they'd be as big as the new one along with the greater demons. The only one that will then be a bit odd is the one that comes with the Obelisk; but that could easily move to being a lesser C'Tan shard in the future.

Yeah, when he's on his own, he'd be a *little* small. But in the Obelisk, he's on par with the Burning One shard being tortured on the Silent King's throne. Although the SK C'tan may still have larger proportions, despite being only a torso and head

C’tan are essentially vampiric living stars that eat other stars, I wouldn’t say it makes sense to parse a little crystal as the shard’s true body.

They originally spread across the star’s surface to feed and were so rarefied that it took the Necrontyr aeons to notice them. The Starlight Bridge technology compressed the heck out of them, plus each shard is only a portion so could be. No idea why it’d be crystalline though.

If the Void Dragon shards can 'harness the power of unrefined noctilith', why does the stone on the model's base have Necron carvings in it? Are we really supposed to believe that the Necrons actually keep a load of noctilith which can be attuned to focus warp energy around? Why would they even do that? It's stupid.

Why is the void Dragon being able to fly using 'eldritch blackstone energy in its purest form' (why does 'blackstone energy' even give the power of flight?) notable? The other C'tan all seem to be able to hover just fine without it.
The Void Dragon even already had the (suggested) power (Sentient Singularity) to manipulate gravity anyway!

If the C'tan shards are actual physical crystals* how do they manage to fly away and escape..? Or feed on stars? Or phase out? Why do the Necrons bother binding C'tan in tesseract labyrinths and Vaults with their necrodermis if they're actually a rock?

*So, so, dumb - they're shards of the C'tan's original essences/power; not like shards of glass...

Is the crystal on the left side of the chest because that's (roughly) where our heart is? Why would it be there on an immaterial star vampire?

Why is the canoptek construct necessary when failsafes already exist against C'tan trying to escape (resonance shackles, binding codes, control relays)? Why not use a control collar like on the Transcendent C'tan? Doesn't relying on the canoptek just create a massive weak spot?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
If the Void Dragon shards can 'harness the power of unrefined noctilith', why does the stone on the model's base have Necron carvings in it? Are we really supposed to believe that the Necrons actually keep a load of noctilith which can be attuned to focus warp energy around? Why would they even do that? It's stupid.

From Necron Lore – Playing the Long Game on Warhammer Community (emphasis added):

Szarekh has initiated a scheme that is simply a masterstroke, creating arrays of immense pylons made of noctilith. This mysterious substance can enhance or shut down psychic powers, and even Belisarius Cawl sees it as the way to defeat Chaos. Where these pylons are raised, whole regions of realspace are cut off from the warp – in its fearful ignorance, Mankind has dubbed this the Pariah Nexus. Any living creatures within this area of space find themselves afflicted with a numbing despair that only worsens with time until they become little more than a mindless husk – the perfect vessels for experimentation on the reversal of biotransference. Due to the negative charge of the pylons, the manifestation of daemonic or psychic energies within these regions becomes vastly more difficult. The Necron’s plans are finally coming to fruition.

Maybe the crystal is the labryinth? It is kind of odd and inconsistent with previous incarnations.
You don't see a crystal on the deceiver or nightbringer. I guess the designer just thought "hey, the necrons have a thing for crystals, so let's make the C'tan a crystal."

Or maybe the C'tan energies coalesce into a crystal after getting released and then it forms its body? But that would contradict the whole necrodermic shell thing.

Idk, GW keeps changing the rules on necrons. Its like they don't get their own lore or something.

Yeah Blackstone can also block psychic powers. Which is really dumb that it can do both. They should have just kept it as a pure blocker, not as both. That would have made things more consistent.

It makes sense that as the Necrons are beings of the material world; when they shattered and bound the Star Gods; that they did so in a fashion that allowed them to be bound to the physical world. Nestled within a crystal Shard is likely a very good way to maintain control and hold over otherwise energy beings.


I take the blackstone shards on the base to be remains of its physical prison that was fashioned around it; the prison brought to the battlefield and broken to release the shard for a limited period of time - hence why you need a Canpotek behind it to keep it in check and also to likely fashion a new prison and recapture and contain the power once the Necrons have no further need of the C'Tan


A control Collar is likely just as unreliable and reliable as a Canpotek machine - its basically the same technology only the Canoptek has the bonus of being mobile. Last thing you want is to disable your shard when it gets out of control and then have it stolen.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
If the Void Dragon shards can 'harness the power of unrefined noctilith', why does the stone on the model's base have Necron carvings in it? Are we really supposed to believe that the Necrons actually keep a load of noctilith which can be attuned to focus warp energy around? Why would they even do that? It's stupid.

From Necron Lore – Playing the Long Game on Warhammer Community (emphasis added):

Szarekh has initiated a scheme that is simply a masterstroke, creating arrays of immense pylons made of noctilith. This mysterious substance can enhance or shut down psychic powers, and even Belisarius Cawl sees it as the way to defeat Chaos. Where these pylons are raised, whole regions of realspace are cut off from the warp – in its fearful ignorance, Mankind has dubbed this the Pariah Nexus. Any living creatures within this area of space find themselves afflicted with a numbing despair that only worsens with time until they become little more than a mindless husk – the perfect vessels for experimentation on the reversal of biotransference. Due to the negative charge of the pylons, the manifestation of daemonic or psychic energies within these regions becomes vastly more difficult. The Necron’s plans are finally coming to fruition.

Imagine you're a Necron, who's going to build a significant portion of your tomb out of noctilith - do you:
a) polarise it so that it repels the warp
b) Just leave it unrefined so that any random enemy could potentially come along and polarise it so that it enhances the power of the warp instead
Hmm. Tough one.

It just makes the Necrons look like complete fools.

At that point you're better off just not using noctilith as a building material to begin with.

You're making assumptions that just anybody and their brother can come along and change the charge on the Noctilith and that unrefined Notilith has no charge at all.

 Ghaz wrote:
You're making assumptions that just anybody and their brother can come along and change the charge on the Noctilith and that unrefined Notilith has no charge at all.

Well, no. Abaddon was able to do it with the Noctilith Crowns, so it's not like it's so difficult to accomplish (also since anti-warp noctilith can be changed into warp-enhancing by sorcery, presumably neutral noctilith should be more easily altered).
And it's not as though there weren't a load of highly psychic races running around the galaxy when the Necrons retreated into stasis...

Or... the blackstone on the model's base isn't supposed to be unrefined; and so it really bears no relation to the shard's ability to harness it's power..?


Even if unrefined noctilith does have a charge (either way), you'd still have to be dumb as mud to not polarise it to repel the warp if you're going to be building your tomb out of it.
They're perfectly capable of doing it on a massive scale, as illustrated by the structures of the Pariah Nexus, Cadian Pylons, Cerberus Shroud etc.


Also, what happens if the shard is deployed somewhere that there isn't just a load of - to quote Forgebane; 'supernaturally valuable' - blackstone lying around?

 Overread wrote:
It makes sense that as the Necrons are beings of the material world; when they shattered and bound the Star Gods; that they did so in a fashion that allowed them to be bound to the physical world. Nestled within a crystal Shard is likely a very good way to maintain control and hold over otherwise energy beings.


I take the blackstone shards on the base to be remains of its physical prison that was fashioned around it; the prison brought to the battlefield and broken to release the shard for a limited period of time - hence why you need a Canpotek behind it to keep it in check and also to likely fashion a new prison and recapture and contain the power once the Necrons have no further need of the C'Tan


A control Collar is likely just as unreliable and reliable as a Canpotek machine - its basically the same technology only the Canoptek has the bonus of being mobile. Last thing you want is to disable your shard when it gets out of control and then have it stolen.

Idk, I don't think I like the idea of the crystal being the labyrinth / c'tan containment device. I always thought it to be more technological than geological. Something like the Lemarchand Box from hellraiser, except more necron like.
The crystal concept doesn't seem right. It seems more magical or fantasy than sci-fi, which is what necrons are supposed to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
You're making assumptions that just anybody and their brother can come along and change the charge on the Noctilith and that unrefined Notilith has no charge at all.

Well, no. Abaddon was able to do it with the Noctilith Crowns, so it's not like it's so difficult to accomplish (also since anti-warp noctilith can be changed into warp-enhancing by sorcery, presumably neutral noctilith should be more easily altered).
And it's not as though there weren't a load of highly psychic races running around the galaxy when the Necrons retreated into stasis...

Or... the blackstone on the model's base isn't supposed to be unrefined; and so it really bears no relation to the shard's ability to harness it's power..?


Even if unrefined noctilith does have a charge (either way), you'd still have to be dumb as mud to not polarise it to repel the warp if you're going to be building your tomb out of it.
They're perfectly capable of doing it on a massive scale, as illustrated by the structures of the Pariah Nexus, Cadian Pylons, Cerberus Shroud etc.


Also, what happens if the shard is deployed somewhere that there isn't just a load of - to quote Forgebane; 'supernaturally valuable' - blackstone lying around?

Maybe the Void Dragon can attune blackstone to be anti-warp just by being around it? In the old lore the Void Dragon is supposed to have the greatest amount of control over the material realm / reality, to the point of making entire legions practically indestructible, which is way the Eldar invented the D-Cannons to counter him by literally throwing the warp at his forces, so perhaps its an allusion to that?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Idk, I don't think I like the idea of the crystal being the labyrinth / c'tan containment device. I always thought it to be more technological than geological. Something like the Lemarchand Box from hellraiser, except more necron like.
The crystal concept doesn't seem right. It seems more magical or fantasy than sci-fi, which is what necrons are supposed to be.

The descriptions of Valeria's labyrinth from Codex: Grey Knights (5th ed.) and Hequiroth's from The World Engine (chapter 4), as well as depictions of presumed labyrinths (eg. Ahmontekh in Deathwatch: The Outer Reach (pg.114)) are cubes.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Maybe the Void Dragon can attune blackstone to be anti-warp just by being around it? In the old lore the Void Dragon is supposed to have the greatest amount of control over the material realm / reality, to the point of making entire legions practically indestructible, which is way the Eldar invented the D-Cannons to counter him by literally throwing the warp at his forces, so perhaps its an allusion to that?

In which case, the blackstone shouldn't be covered in Necron hieroglyphs (which is my whole problem with it on the model).

The inclusion of noctilith in some form makes some thematic sense, since the Void Dragon was the architect of the pylons and the Great Work to begin with, but the implementation - or at least the background justification/description of it - is dumb.

GW's brief design notes often cause these sorts of problems if you think about them for more than thirty seconds - the notes on the Marine Captain from the Indomitus box in the latest White Dwarf (456) are all kinds of wacky, for example.


EDIT: Why are you like this quote tags?!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The descriptions of Valeria's labyrinth from Codex: Grey Knights (5th ed.) and Hequiroth's from The World Engine (chapter 4), as well as depictions of presumed labyrinths (eg. Ahmontekh in Deathwatch: The Outer Reach (pg.114)) are cubes.

So basically a LaMarchand box. Cool.
Also inconsistent with the new model, so I don't know what's going on with it design wise :/

The cube might well be the shattered blackstone that forms the base. A cube formed around a crystal that acts as a focus

There is no reason at all to assume that this shard alone is contained in a crystal inside a blackstone cube, which has to be carried to the battlefield.
We're not told that (you'd think that would be worthy of mention, given the other details which are presented in the article).

Besides which, tesseract labyrinths are small enough to hold in your hand, not big 'ol stone boxes.


I can get behind the crystal just being some sort of symbol of the Void Dragon, like the Nightbringer has his scythe, and the Burning one is on fire; but it actually being the C'tan shard makes very little sense.

I chalk up the lack of visible crystal in the Nightbringer and Deceiver to any crystal being inside their necrodermis body already. When I first saw the Void Dragon model, I thought it was either just starting to coalesce or form its body, or healing after damage, hence the gaps and pixels. Seems silly to otherwise leave a visible gap to the crystal. Also when I first saw the model, again before GW's latest explanation, I didn't think of the crystal as an actual physical mineral but more of a construct of energy that just looked like a crystal.

As for the various different appearance and containment methods of the various C'tan, I know RL it is from the different release dates, but headcanon-wise I explain it away as just different designs based on dynasty with the Tesseract Vault being the safest containment method for a larger shard.

 GaroRobe wrote:


The Void Dragon has really grown on me. Multiple heads are awesome, the fact it has a canoptek construct on its back with claws aimed at the neck is a cool touch, etc.

Why they started previews with the most boring head? The other two are much better. Though only GW can call the last one faceless

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah Blackstone can also block psychic powers. Which is really dumb that it can do both. They should have just kept it as a pure blocker, not as both. That would have made things more consistent.

How? Moderator in nuclear reactors can both start it and shut it down depending on application, to give just one easy example...

 Irbis wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:


The Void Dragon has really grown on me. Multiple heads are awesome, the fact it has a canoptek construct on its back with claws aimed at the neck is a cool touch, etc.

Why they started previews with the most boring head? The other two are much better. Though only GW can call the last one faceless

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah Blackstone can also block psychic powers. Which is really dumb that it can do both. They should have just kept it as a pure blocker, not as both. That would have made things more consistent.

How? Moderator in nuclear reactors can both start it and shut it down depending on application, to give just one easy example...

Isn't a Moderator a material that is used to slow down neutrons to ensure a continuous fission reaction? I don't think it stops neutrons completely, which is what you need to halt a reactor, nor does it start the reaction.
Besides, that's not the same thing as what blackstone can do. Blackstone can either stop psychic activity or amplify it. Those are two very different properties that are in opposition to each other.

Maybe the idea is that it works like a magnet, where it can either repel or attract warp energy. Which would make sense, I suppose. If that were the case though, then why don't Eldar or Chaos use it?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Irbis wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:


The Void Dragon has really grown on me. Multiple heads are awesome, the fact it has a canoptek construct on its back with claws aimed at the neck is a cool touch, etc.

Why they started previews with the most boring head? The other two are much better. Though only GW can call the last one faceless

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah Blackstone can also block psychic powers. Which is really dumb that it can do both. They should have just kept it as a pure blocker, not as both. That would have made things more consistent.

How? Moderator in nuclear reactors can both start it and shut it down depending on application, to give just one easy example...

Isn't a Moderator a material that is used to slow down neutrons to ensure a continuous fission reaction? I don't think it stops neutrons completely, which is what you need to halt a reactor, nor does it start the reaction.

Besides, that's not the same thing as what blackstone can do. Blackstone can either stop psychic activity or amplify it. Those are two very different properties that are in opposition to each other.

Shouldn't a positive charge and a negative charge have effects that are in opposition to each other since they are opposites?

 Ghaz wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Irbis wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:


The Void Dragon has really grown on me. Multiple heads are awesome, the fact it has a canoptek construct on its back with claws aimed at the neck is a cool touch, etc.

Why they started previews with the most boring head? The other two are much better. Though only GW can call the last one faceless

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah Blackstone can also block psychic powers. Which is really dumb that it can do both. They should have just kept it as a pure blocker, not as both. That would have made things more consistent.

How? Moderator in nuclear reactors can both start it and shut it down depending on application, to give just one easy example...

Isn't a Moderator a material that is used to slow down neutrons to ensure a continuous fission reaction? I don't think it stops neutrons completely, which is what you need to halt a reactor, nor does it start the reaction.

Besides, that's not the same thing as what blackstone can do. Blackstone can either stop psychic activity or amplify it. Those are two very different properties that are in opposition to each other.

Shouldn't a positive charge and a negative charge have effects that are in opposition to each other since they are opposites?

Yeah, after writing that it occurred to me that it could work like a polarized magnet. It also occurred to me that Chaos and Eldar would also want to use it for its warp-attracting properties, which is a little inconsistent as I don't think they do use it? An interesting concept, nonetheless.

Chaos used bits of the Cadian pylons to make the Noctilith Crowns, and used sorcery to amplify the warp-dampening effects of other parts (???) in an attempt to cut off the warp routes away from Terra in Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion.

The Blackstone Fortresses make use of the amplification effect (presumably to power the warp canons? It doesn't seem to affect psykers within the Fortress though...)

I thought fluff was updated so that apparently in their purest form the CTan look like super small stars.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Chaos used bits of the Cadian pylons to make the Noctilith Crowns, and used sorcery to amplify the warp-dampening effects of other parts (???) in an attempt to cut off the warp routes away from Terra in Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion.

The Blackstone Fortresses make use of the amplification effect (presumably to power the warp canons? It doesn't seem to affect psykers within the Fortress though...)

Ok that's cool, so they are updating it to be more consistent with the new usage.
Maybe we'll see actual miniatures of Chaos sorcerers and Eldar using blackstone.

That Calgar comic looks fething terrible

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Irbis wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:


The Void Dragon has really grown on me. Multiple heads are awesome, the fact it has a canoptek construct on its back with claws aimed at the neck is a cool touch, etc.

Why they started previews with the most boring head? The other two are much better. Though only GW can call the last one faceless

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah Blackstone can also block psychic powers. Which is really dumb that it can do both. They should have just kept it as a pure blocker, not as both. That would have made things more consistent.

How? Moderator in nuclear reactors can both start it and shut it down depending on application, to give just one easy example...

Isn't a Moderator a material that is used to slow down neutrons to ensure a continuous fission reaction? I don't think it stops neutrons completely, which is what you need to halt a reactor, nor does it start the reaction.

Besides, that's not the same thing as what blackstone can do. Blackstone can either stop psychic activity or amplify it. Those are two very different properties that are in opposition to each other.

Shouldn't a positive charge and a negative charge have effects that are in opposition to each other since they are opposites?

Yeah, after writing that it occurred to me that it could work like a polarized magnet. It also occurred to me that Chaos and Eldar would also want to use it for its warp-attracting properties, which is a little inconsistent as I don't think they do use it? An interesting concept, nonetheless.

The chaos fleet in the Avenging Son novel does in fact use it as 'an attractor'