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 Sazzlefrats wrote:
1. The rules say you can't move a "unit" more than once. You could logically imply that a "model" can't be moved more than once, but you can't imply that its okay to move a model multiple times... where's the precedent?

that has nothing to do with model movement. They say each model can be moved etc...

2. If multiple moves were allowed, I would also assume that movement restrictions that are in the rules stating that you can't leave the battlefield or cross over another base, would not exist... but they do. I wonder why... (not really, its your choice to make poor decisions in prior turns.) Also GW says you may move up to your M in inches... its permissive but not guarannteed you get your full move.

This has nothing to do with a model's movement.

3. You are allowed to move a model, when you move a unit. It says nothing about pluralizing move. That's my interpretation. You can move your model once... one time, take your finger off and you are done...

100% false, there is no basis at all for this.

Can you move your models? (A: Yes).

Do the rules say once you take your finger off and you are done? (A: No, it does not say that at all).

Okay so unit with 6 inch move characteristic

Move model with lasgun 2 inches
Move model with lasgun 3 inches
Move model with lasgun 2.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 1.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 4 inches
Move Sargent 5 inches
Move model with plasma gun 4 inches
Move model with lasgun 6 inches
Move model with lasgun 3.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 2 inches
Move model with lasgun 1.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 4 inches
Move Sargent 1 inch
Move model with plasma gun 4 inches

Is that a legal or illegal movement?

Illegal, because at least one of the models exceeded it's move characteristic (the plasma gun).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okey dokey. 40k is now like chess, where once your hand leaves the model, it is there forever.

So, this is what you think the creators intended when they say that no model can cross over another's base during movement:


"Marine number eight needs to get to the front, so, marine one moves .75" to the left, marine two moves 1.25" left, marine six moves 1" left and back, marine nine moves right .75 inches, marine seven... or was that five? moves right 1" right. Now, marine eight scuttles 4.5" up the gap. Now, marine one moves back .75", marine two moves back 1.25", marine six moves back 1", marine nine moves back .75', but forward 1" to move the tree. So, the unit wants to move forward. Marine one has 6.5" left, marine two has 4.5" remaining, marine six has 6" left, marine nine has 4.5"... no wait, 3.5" because of the tree... hunh. That screws up coherency so eight goes back 1"..."

Okay. Unit two..."

Seriously, you think that's what the writers were aiming for?

I don't think the writers thought it through tbf.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Illegal, because at least one of the models exceeded it's move characteristic (the plasma gun).

But which one? IG with the rolled up sleeves, IG with one rolled up sleeve, or IG with torn sleeve?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't think the writers thought it through tbf.

Or, Occam's razor: If they wanted to allow players to circumvent the "no crossing bases" rule, do you think they would only imply that moves can be as complex as needed to make the rule irrelevant, so only half the players would be smart enough to avoid it?

Or, is it more likely they would have just cut the "no crossing bases" rule entirely, and shorten the game by 45 minutes so players wouldn't be required to read between the lines to utilize incremental movement? Tough call...

I can't wait for my 120 orks to move quarter inches at a time so the entire game can be filmed as part of my "stop-go" animation project.

Hey, don't complain, it's totally legal. The rules explicitly fail to say otherwise.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Illegal, because at least one of the models exceeded it's move characteristic (the plasma gun).

Incorrect.

Ice_can wrote:
Okay so unit with 6 inch move characteristic

Move model with lasgun 2 inches
Move model with lasgun 3 inches
Move model with lasgun 2.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 1.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 4 inches
Move Sargent 5 inches
Move model with plasma gun 4 inches
Move model with lasgun 6 inches
Move model with lasgun 3.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 2 inches
Move model with lasgun 1.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 4 inches
Move Sargent 1 inch
Move model with plasma gun 4 inches

Is that a legal or illegal movement?

Can't tell. You haven't individualized the models, except for the Sargent (I'm assuming the unit only has one Sargent), so I don't know if you move one model with a Lasgun 10 times or 10 different models with a Lasgun once. Same is true for the model with plasma gun. Is it one model or two models?

From page 206:
"When you move a unit, you can move any of its models (you can also choose not to move some of the models in that unit if you wish). Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change it's position on the battlefield along any path but no part of the model's base (or hull) can be moved across the ... blah blah blah."

"any of its models" to me means one or more at a time. The "whenever you move a model" details restrictions for each model that is moved and isn't part of the preceeding sentence.

So the initial situation of A moving backward, then B moving then A moving back in would be legal as you are moving "any of the models" and none of them have one over each other's bases. BUT, the normal move rules (p207) detail total movement, not displacement (unlike the old vehicle movement rules), so the movement backwards counts against that model.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which is a lot of text to say, no you can't move twice but the initial example doesn't require moving twice anyways.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
No, what he is saying is the rules DO give you permission to move, and only rescind that permission when:
1) the model reaches it's maximum movement distance
2) another unit is selected to move.

Do you know what isn't on that list? The act of moving itself. You can move once, four times, eighteen times, ninethousandfourhundredandtwelve times, and you will never, ever meet the conditions in which your permission to move is revoked.

Yeah, this is the best explanation of it. You aren't moving a model twice. You're moving it once, as part of moving the unit. If you want to do that in several stages within the unit, that's fine, as long as you don't exceed the model's total movement characteristic. The rules are very clear that each unit must be moved in turn with no going back to a prior unit, but say nothing about each model within a unit having to be moved in turn with no going back.

Think about the simple scenario: You have one model, and you're trying to carefully move around a big square obstacle.

So:
- You put down your tape measure and measure out 3" forward along one corner. You put down the model and pick up the tape measure to move it.
- You put down your tape measure and measure out 3" forward along to the second corner. You put down the model and pick up the tape measure to move it.
- You put down your tape measure and measure out 2" forward along the next side.

That's a movement of 3+3+2 inches.
Does it matter that the starting and end points are less than 8" apart? No.
Does it matter that you moved the model three different times? No.

Note that the movement rules DO specify that you measure along the path that the model moved:
"The distance a model moves
is measured using the part of the model’s base (or hull) that moves furthest along its path (including parts that rotate or pivot)." (emphasis added)

So in Ice_can's scenario with the "model with plasma gun", if it's same 'model with plasma gun' on both lines, that's describing a model moving eight inches. Note: Ice_can's example is deficient because it doesn't identify any of the models, or how many unique models there are. There are fourteen lines with "move .... X inches" but between "Move model with lasgun 2 inches" and "Move model with lasgun 3 inches" are those the same model?

---

The no crossing bases thing is a red herring, since it refers to any situation when movement might cross a base, including between two different units. So it would have to be in there regardless of whether you could move a model once or infinite times.

Also note that this result is essentially mandated by the coherency rules. The way they are worded, you are not allowed to end a movement of a unit without all models being in coherency. If a model can only be picked up and physically moved once as part of its move, what do you do if you leave yourself in a situation where your last model can't create coherency with all the others? The rules state that if you can't end a unit's movement in coherency, the move "cannot be made." That would logically mean based on this interpretation that if you screwed anything up during your movement of indivdual models, the result would be that you'd be forced to roll back the movement of the entire unit and act as if you hadn't moved. It's hard to believe that's what they intended - "hey, you took your finger off your model there without thinking about coherency, take the other 25 models you moved back to where they were before! No, you can't just shuffle model 23 back a tenth of an inch to fix the problem, the whole move has to be undone and you don't get to move this phase!"

The coherency rule also makes clear that moving a unit is moving a unit, not moving each model in the unit. There is no such thing as moving a single model except as a consequence of moving the unit; you move the unit, and as part of that, you can physically pick up and put down any of its models as many times as you like.

 solkan wrote:
Think about the simple scenario: You have one model, and you're trying to carefully move around a big square obstacle.
...
So in Ice_can's scenario with the "model with plasma gun", if it's same 'model with plasma gun' on both lines, that's describing a model moving eight inches. Note: Ice_can's example is deficient because it doesn't identify any of the models, or how many unique models there are. There are fourteen lines with "move .... X inches" but between "Move model with lasgun 2 inches" and "Move model with lasgun 3 inches" are those the same model?

---

Then use my example above. It can get very complicated, very fast. It's creating a "three card monty" game, where your opponent has to watch ten models all move random directions and distances, and hope they end up moving the correct amount in the end. It slows the game down, increases the chances of exceeding movement allowances, and negates a specific rule of not allowing bases to overlap.

I have yet to see anyone give a plausible explanation of why the developers wanted that level of complication added to the game.

It's always worked that way as far as I know. But it's super clear they intended it to work that way in 9th, because the coherency rules don't work in practice without it. Moving a horde of 30 models one at a time in a way that makes sure every one is in coherency with 2 others without the opportunity to adjust models when you're done to make sure would be essentially impossible.

Some element of trust is required to play the game. I don't insist on measuring my opponent's moves for him, and if he wants to wiggle in squiggly lines to move 8" instead of 6", then fine. He is an unethical cheater and can earn the victory (if that is the result).

I also trust my opponents not to have loaded dice, or edited digital rulebooks/codexes, or to track which squad is which in a crowded space.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah put me down for the "you can move each model up to its movement characteristic, and you can do that in as many stages as you want" camp.

Yeah I'm with Yuk on this one.

I don't see any reason why you can't mix and match and move around all the minis in a single unit as long as none of them violate the requirements of moving.

Whats different in 9th than 8th... in all the other editions this was never a consideration?

Also lets say you were allowed to move a model twice (never legal before)... Why ... why bother having this rule at all?

"BRB Page 206 wrote:
Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model's base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield."

Seriously... if that rule was gone, no one would argue for saving movement so you can get models out of the way?

 alextroy wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Okay so unit with 6 inch move characteristic

Move model with lasgun 2 inches
Move model with lasgun 3 inches
Move model with lasgun 2.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 1.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 4 inches
Move Sargent 5 inches
Move model with plasma gun 4 inches
Move model with lasgun 6 inches
Move model with lasgun 3.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 2 inches
Move model with lasgun 1.5 inches
Move model with lasgun 4 inches
Move Sargent 1 inch
Move model with plasma gun 4 inches

Is that a legal or illegal movement?

Can't tell. You haven't individualized the models, except for the Sargent (I'm assuming the unit only has one Sargent), so I don't know if you move one model with a Lasgun 10 times or 10 different models with a Lasgun once. Same is true for the model with plasma gun. Is it one model or two models?

Which is exactly why this whole argument that you can move models multiple times is utterly unplayable abusing the rules to cheat your opponents.

It's saying despite the wording not explicitly stating you can do it the designer's intended to allow players to regularly have to follow Ten model monte scams.

If you get to say 30 ork boys that now by intention can be moved as many times as the owning player wants to in any order and combination.
Let's sat they aren't taking the absolute out of their opponents and move each model 3 times
Thats 90 individual movement values, ah but wait can you tell Ork boy 1 from ork boy 5 and ork boy 27? Hope your good at it as you have 27000 possible moment combinations.

At that point either the games a farse or hope you enjoy video refereeing your opponents movement phase for an hour or more each turn.

Slowest edition ever.

Ok, so there’s a few things that need to be cleared up.

Mastiff, a plausible explanation of why the developers might have wanted a rule to work some way is probably a better question for the general discussion board, and considering we are discussing RAW, it is not needed here. Also, yes you can move each of 30 boyz .25” at a time until all of them have moved their full 6”. Just like you’re allowed to roll 1 die at a time when they fire their weapons. And it’s because you’re explicitly allowed to do that. Not just that you aren’t *not* allowed to. There is explicit permission to. Both are completely legal, and some of the rules permit people to be jerks.

2nd, despite how some are claiming, the scenario the OP presented is not some horrible-nightmare-gamebreaking scenario that would only be used by the lowest of mortals. It’s a real thing that can happen in real life, so that’s nice. (I am aware that this logic has no effect on the legality of the scenario, but to me, real life logic makes things make sense.)

3rd, once the permission to move is established, what makes you think you have ULTRA MEGA EXPLICIT PERMISSION to STOP moving after one time? The fact is “permission to move is not permission to move twice” is the exact same thing as saying “permission to move is not permission to move once”. Both of those statements are equally correct, because permission to move is only permission to move. You are adding extra words and your feelings into the rules when you say it’s limited to once. Moving twice is moving, just like moving once is moving, that’s how words work.

4th, the rule about not moving across other models or their bases is very general, and not even necessarily referring to friendly models. That’s also the rule that prevents a friendly unit moving through a different friendly unit. So this scenario doesn’t render it null.

5th, don’t micro-police your opponents. If they cheat, they suck. You don’t have to watch them move their whole unit to make sure no one is moving 1mm over their allowed distance.

So your answer is this interpretation allows for cheating but thats okay, if your opponents cheat they suck, you shouldn't have to check what your opponents doing.

That's the same idiotic logic that would support horde players claiming they need 2 hours out of a 3 hour game because they have more units.

Any interpretation that favours cheating is how you kill the game.

Ice_can wrote:
So your answer is this interpretation allows for cheating but thats okay, if your opponents cheat they suck, you shouldn't have to check what your opponents doing.

That's the same idiotic logic that would support horde players claiming they need 2 hours out of a 3 hour game because they have more units.

Any interpretation that favours cheating is how you kill the game.

"Favors" or "allows" cheating is hilarious. Cheating is already against the rules; I cannot make it more against the rules than it already is, nor can I make it less. I came to participate in the game as a player, not as an umpire or an enforcer. There is a social contract in 40k that both players will abide by the rules, because there are myriad cases (indeed, far more than moving twice in the same movement phase with a model under its max move) where it is not fun to police every action taken by one's opponent.

In fact, I'd argue there are easier ways to cheat than wiggling all your models around inexplicably - I mean that looks fishy as hell from a distance. This is a nothingburger that you've somehow misidentified as a hill worth dying on.

Simply put their is no reason to need to do this shuffle shuffle, the rules don't give explicit permission and if you start it the only reason to do so would be to gain an unfair advantage/cheat.

Becuase you can bet the donkey gave that would start this nonsence qould insist that checking the move is legal is on your time not theirs. It's effectively the new way to slow play your opponent into loosing the game by clocking out.

Anyone who does it is a and should be given a sportsmanship warning atleast.

It's realy no different than the that move a model then move it back then move the same model and move it back then move it again and move it back that resulted in alot of people I know going to chess style you move the model that's the model moved no take backs no magical wandering BS.

(Usually highlighted when you are out of rapid fire at 12 but they magically after moving have an sub 6 inch charge.

Ice_can wrote:
Simply put their is no reason to need to do this shuffle shuffle, the rules don't give explicit permission

Yes they do, as demonstrated.

Ice_can wrote:
and if you start it the only reason to do so would be to gain an unfair advantage/cheat.

The OP gave an example of exactly this that is neither unfair nor cheating.

Ice_can wrote:
Becuase you can bet the donkey gave that would start this nonsence qould insist that checking the move is legal is on your time not theirs. It's effectively the new way to slow play your opponent into loosing the game by clocking out.

I make a point of not playing donkey caves, so not my problem. Donkey caves can do far worse than move an extra couple inches.

Ice_can wrote:
Anyone who does it is a and should be given a sportsmanship warning atleast.

Sure, just like any other form of fuckery.

Ice_can wrote:
It's realy no different than the that move a model then move it back then move the same model and move it back then move it again and move it back that resulted in alot of people I know going to chess style you move the model that's the model moved no take backs no magical wandering BS.

There's nothing actually wrong with this if units are not exceeding their maximum move.

Ice_can wrote:
(Usually highlighted when you are out of rapid fire at 12 but they magically after moving have an sub 6 inch charge.

This is just people being dickheads and will happen whether you let them move once, twice, or eighteen thousand times. The rules restrict them to their maximum movement value, an if they won't follow the rules, they're cheaters. No rules about number of moves allowed required.

My 2 cents is that while the rules for 8th Edition explicitly state a model cannot be moved more than once per Movement Phase, there is no such rule in 9th. Instead, it has notes that no unit can be moved more than once and that a unit must end it's move in Coherency or that move cannot be made.

It appears to me that GW is more concerned with the unit making a legal move and less with whether you adjust the movement of individual models during the process of moving the unit as a whole. And let's face facts, who hasn't moved a unit as a whole and then adjusted the models slightly at the end of the process to ensure coherency, LOS, range, and the like?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okey dokey. 40k is now like chess, where once your hand leaves the model, it is there forever.

I eagerly await the time my opponent's knee sticks out from behind cover and he reaches back down to rotate it or scoot it back a millimeter or something and I can tell him "no, sorry, here is a thread on Dakkadakka, you took your hand off and now you can't move it anymore."

I look forwards even more to when that happens with a unit ending its move out of coherency and I can call my opponent a cheater. Sorry, mate, can't move any of those models to fix it. You just broke the rules. Victory by forfeit?

This seems a gross overreaction given that you couldn't move models more than once during the unit move in previous editions either.


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 Mastiff wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okey dokey. 40k is now like chess, where once your hand leaves the model, it is there forever.

So, this is what you think the creators intended when they say that no model can cross over another's base during movement:


"Marine number eight needs to get to the front, so, marine one moves .75" to the left, marine two moves 1.25" left, marine six moves 1" left and back, marine nine moves right .75 inches, marine seven... or was that five? moves right 1" right. Now, marine eight scuttles 4.5" up the gap. Now, marine one moves back .75", marine two moves back 1.25", marine six moves back 1", marine nine moves back .75', but forward 1" to move the tree. So, the unit wants to move forward. Marine one has 6.5" left, marine two has 4.5" remaining, marine six has 6" left, marine nine has 4.5"... no wait, 3.5" because of the tree... hunh. That screws up coherency so eight goes back 1"..."

Okay. Unit two..."

Seriously, you think that's what the writers were aiming for?

You forgot "Marine number six puts his right foot in. Marine number sixr takes his left foot out. Marine number two puts his right foot in and shakes it all about...Marine number four does the hokey pokey and turns himself around. That's what it's all about."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
No, what he is saying is the rules DO give you permission to move, and only rescind that permission when:
1) the model reaches it's maximum movement distance
2) another unit is selected to move.

Do you know what isn't on that list? The act of moving itself. You can move once, four times, eighteen times, ninethousandfourhundredandtwelve times, and you will never, ever meet the conditions in which your permission to move is revoked.

Yeah, this is the best explanation of it. You aren't moving a model twice. You're moving it once, as part of moving the unit. If you want to do that in several stages within the unit, that's fine, as long as you don't exceed the model's total movement characteristic. The rules are very clear that each unit must be moved in turn with no going back to a prior unit, but say nothing about each model within a unit having to be moved in turn with no going back.

Moving it in stages means you are moving the model at least two different times, which isn't moving it once.Sorry, that's just trying to use semantics to ignore basic math.

Seems perfectly legitimate to me.

Ice_can wrote:
Simply put their is no reason to need to do this shuffle shuffle, the rules don't give explicit permission and if you start it the only reason to do so would be to gain an unfair advantage/cheat.

Becuase you can bet the donkey gave that would start this nonsence qould insist that checking the move is legal is on your time not theirs. It's effectively the new way to slow play your opponent into loosing the game by clocking out.

Anyone who does it is a and should be given a sportsmanship warning atleast.

It's realy no different than the that move a model then move it back then move the same model and move it back then move it again and move it back that resulted in alot of people I know going to chess style you move the model that's the model moved no take backs no magical wandering BS.

(Usually highlighted when you are out of rapid fire at 12 but they magically after moving have an sub 6 inch charge.

The reason to do this is not “only to gain an unfair advantage/ cheat”. The entire game is based around getting an advantage over your opponent. Not by exploiting rules to break them, like you’re so insistent that every will do as soon as they find out. But by using the rules in your favor. A great example of this is moving a unit to get its weapons in range of an enemy unit.

But “gosh that’s just not how I wish it was worded” is not an argument. You have explicit permission to do this, and you are inserting new words and restrictions to make it not so.

rbacus wrote:
\
You have explicit permission to do this

Citation needed.

 doctortom wrote:

rbacus wrote:
\
You have explicit permission to do this

Citation needed.

Reading threads before commenting on them is a good idea.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The rules give you permission to move, and only rescind that permission when:
1) the model reaches it's maximum movement distance
2) another unit is selected to move.

Do you know what isn't on that list? The act of moving itself. You can move once, four times, eighteen times, ninethousandfourhundredandtwelve times, and you will never, ever meet the conditions in which your permission to move is revoked.