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Wait so now my mostly useless Achillus Dreadnoughts that have accomplished nothing in all of 8th are FW-pay to win garbage?

What a time to be alive. Adeptus Custodes FW rules were written by GW team proper. And that shows because after the beta-state they were changed in actual sensible senses and have been some of the most balanced units in the game compared with the codex counterparts. Unlinke most FW stuff they aren't useless or OP, but they were usable and strong without being too strong. Removing FW from Custodes is like removing the tanks from Imperial Guard, you take half the army.

Of course I would love to FW go to die and all the good stuff of FW be rolled in normal codex and most of it be made in proper plastic. The minimal lost of quality is worth it for proper avaibility and not having to work with resin.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Your logic doesn't work.

If the mere existence of a few underpowered FW units somehow excuses their ridiculous pay-to-win nonesense, then the same applies to GW and all the Castellan, Ynnari, whatever stuff can be excused because Mutilators and Necron Monoliths exists.

That's not how it works.

It's exactly how it works, you're singling out FW as "pay to win" and targeting people who but and use it without applying the same standard to non-fw entries who also "pay to win" but just with plastic.

Not anymore than the responses are singling out some GW rules like Craftworld Ynnari or the Raven Castellan in an endless CP set-up to create a false balance of non-FW models allegedly having the same problems and thus distracting from the FW-specific problem.

2019 LVO top 9, there is 1 FW unit in the form of a knight lancer as far as I can see.

2020 there were 3 lists in the top 8 with FW models, all of them space marines.

Explain to me what happened between 2019 and 2020 which might suddenly make space marine FW units appear a lot more? Then explain to me how that has anything to do with the fact the model is from FW please. The only rational answer is actually neglect, GW neglect the FW range and forget about it intentionally. Pay to win actually translates to = pay to be forgotten.

 Blndmage wrote:

 Grimoir wrote:
So it's OK to use Dakka to "bash" or otherwise denigrate a specific geo-political entity ?!?!?!?

Yes.
Wear a mask.
Stay home.

Or at least stay away from me.

 Galas wrote:
Wait so now my mostly useless Achillus Dreadnoughts that have accomplished nothing in all of 8th are FW-pay to win garbage?

What a time to be alive. Adeptus Custodes FW rules were written by GW team proper. And that shows because after the beta-state they were changed in actual sensible senses and have been some of the most balanced units in the game compared with the codex counterparts. Unlinke most FW stuff they aren't useless or OP, but they were usable and strong without being too strong. Removing FW from Custodes is like removing the tanks from Imperial Guard, you take half the army.

Of course I would love to FW go to die and all the good stuff of FW be rolled in normal codex and most of it be made in proper plastic. The minimal lost of quality is worth it for proper avaibility and not having to work with resin.

I mostly just hate resin. No, I'm SUPER excited to pay 500$ for a model that MELTS IN THE SUN!!!

I'm hoping the Custodes train doesn't roll through my metas I play in. I just started collecting them a few months ago. We have a couple regular custodes players already, including the #1 rated guy for custodes.

As far as the FW thing goes, if it was play to win I would have won my last 8 GT's as half or more of my army is FW Knights. Heck the army I'm bringing to a GT in September is entirely FW Knights. I run FW units all the time in my IW and WE as well. Still no GT or Major win. I must be doing something wrong.

ERJAK wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Wait so now my mostly useless Achillus Dreadnoughts that have accomplished nothing in all of 8th are FW-pay to win garbage?

What a time to be alive. Adeptus Custodes FW rules were written by GW team proper. And that shows because after the beta-state they were changed in actual sensible senses and have been some of the most balanced units in the game compared with the codex counterparts. Unlinke most FW stuff they aren't useless or OP, but they were usable and strong without being too strong. Removing FW from Custodes is like removing the tanks from Imperial Guard, you take half the army.

Of course I would love to FW go to die and all the good stuff of FW be rolled in normal codex and most of it be made in proper plastic. The minimal lost of quality is worth it for proper avaibility and not having to work with resin.

I mostly just hate resin. No, I'm SUPER excited to pay 500$ for a model that MELTS IN THE SUN!!!

I think any model would melt if you'd throw it into the sun, though.

Came on here to look at the additional 3 pages that got added since yesterday, but got bait and switched into it becoming a FW thread. Oh well.

nekooni 790591 10885656 wrote:

I think any model would melt if you'd throw it into the sun, though.

I have seen Russian recasts fall on concreate, those things are resistant as steel. On the other hand I have seen a cooked GW resin necron model that melted just from a trip in a bus.

Karol wrote:

nekooni 790591 10885656 wrote:

I think any model would melt if you'd throw it into the sun, though.

I have seen Russian recasts fall on concreate, those things are resistant as steel. On the other hand I have seen a cooked GW resin necron model that melted just from a trip in a bus.

I have a recast leviathan I left on black leather seats in a black car on a sunny 95 Fahrenheit day that was fine and a FW Lightning strike fighter that basically ended up a puddle on a 45 degree day in fall because it got direct sunlight.

ERJAK wrote:

Karol wrote:

nekooni 790591 10885656 wrote:

I think any model would melt if you'd throw it into the sun, though.

I have seen Russian recasts fall on concreate, those things are resistant as steel. On the other hand I have seen a cooked GW resin necron model that melted just from a trip in a bus.

I have a recast leviathan I left on black leather seats in a black car on a sunny 95 Fahrenheit day that was fine and a FW Lightning strike fighter that basically ended up a puddle on a 45 degree day in fall because it got direct sunlight.

Are you surprised?
GW is the market leader , for some time now, got complacent.
Never seen better in the "quality " Resin they sell.

Not to mention that GW sees resin as a thing of the past and is trying to move past it, so they have no reasons to further develop it.

Karol wrote:

nekooni 790591 10885656 wrote:

I think any model would melt if you'd throw it into the sun, though.

I have seen Russian recasts fall on concreate, those things are resistant as steel. On the other hand I have seen a cooked GW resin necron model that melted just from a trip in a bus.

ERJAK wrote:

Karol wrote:

nekooni 790591 10885656 wrote:

I think any model would melt if you'd throw it into the sun, though.

I have seen Russian recasts fall on concreate, those things are resistant as steel. On the other hand I have seen a cooked GW resin necron model that melted just from a trip in a bus.

I have a recast leviathan I left on black leather seats in a black car on a sunny 95 Fahrenheit day that was fine and a FW Lightning strike fighter that basically ended up a puddle on a 45 degree day in fall because it got direct sunlight.

It's not limited to their resin either. I have a couple basilisks that warped in my car's trunk.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
This was an 8th edition tournament which got hijacked at the last second into 9th edition.

Most of the partecipants were ready for 8th edition, and in 8th most players didn't bring xenos. After the hijack many switched to another list or faction, but switching to marines and custodes is easy. Switching to xenos is much harder.

If Custodes Troops got the 50% increase Drukhari got and Drukhari got no increase you bet your ass we would be seeing the Drukhari raiding the tournament silly.

Yeah. No way some 8th Edition tournament would've had a quarter of the people bring foot-heavy Custodes lists.

The lists and faction spread screams "9th Ed. winners" and that's what people brought.

And it's been possible to estimate winners in advance so there's been time to prepare custodian etc armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

Spoletta wrote:
This was an 8th edition tournament which got hijacked at the last second into 9th edition.

Most of the partecipants were ready for 8th edition, and in 8th most players didn't bring xenos. After the hijack many switched to another list or faction, but switching to marines and custodes is easy. Switching to xenos is much harder.

If Custodes Troops got the 50% increase Drukhari got and Drukhari got no increase you bet your ass we would be seeing the Drukhari raiding the tournament silly.

But they didn't. They got one of the smallest points increases, along with +1 to their invuls, their own version of transhuman physiology, and a stratagem that negates ap -1 and -2. So an army with obsec on everything, 2+, 4++, T5, 3W troops, even better stats on their elites, and a dreadnought that's tougher than a leviathan but cheaper. Yikes. Did I miss anything? Guess loyalist marines should start sweating.

That's the point. Custodians got huge buff so people either dusted off or made custodians. Had de been winners it would have been dark eldars.

ERJAK wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
No one's going to mention the battle sanctum? 55 points for a gigantic LoS blocker that walls off your deployment zone and grants light cover, heavy cover, miracle dice, and leadership?

The sheer size of footprint alone makes it worth considering at that price point.

Yeah, it's pretty sexy, especially since you can get your CP back on the Fortification Network detachment. Of course that means you can only take it at Incursion or higher, but that's most matched play games anyway. In some battles on a big enough board, I'd even take two; I have one build that I'm considering which focuses on MD optimization, and two of these really push it over the top.

It's going to get nerfed. The next cheapest fortification is the Aegis Defence Line at 80 points and it's a tiny fraction of the size of the battle sanctum.

That's an indictment of the aegis, not a reason to nerf the sanctum.

What do you think is more likely, GW nerfing the battle sanctum or GW buffing the aegis defence line (and like 10 other fortifications that cost ~100 points or more)?

Sunny Side Up wrote:
If people weren't running Contemptors pre Marine 2.0, it's because they were running even more absurd FW dreads like Deredeos or Leviathans and using the CSM ruleset instead of the Marine one, because it was stronger.

Doesn't make the FW dreads less absurd and only make you look more foolish for claiming they weren't around in abundance since the earliest days of the edition.

Hell, the very first WHW Heat right after the release of 8th was won by (actual loyalist, pre Chaos Marines getting a Codex) Raven Guard FW Contemptor spam in the late summer of 2017.

They have been a way to buy yourself a tournament win if you wanna spend the money ever since.

You clearly never bothered to read the codex Centemptor entry if you're gonna bother making stupid statements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler Alert: removing the FW dreads wouldn't make people run codex Dreads. They'd just not be used period.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

A.T. wrote:
The Galatus? That's on that hasn't seen the table in a long time (or ever, really).

Well, all FW Contemptors got a point drop (while, famously, most everything in the game went up).

There's a reason the other list shown had 3 Imperial Fist Relic Contemptors. It applies to the Custodes Contemptor variants as well.

Not sure if they got that point drop (even larger relative point drop compared to "the rest of the game") in anticipation to some changes in the upcoming FW rules. But as of now, using new-Relic/FW-Contemptor points with their old rules is very strong.

Also most Contemptors (at least the Marine ones) are fast and don't degrade on speed, which is more important than ever (combined with a smaller board).

Wrong, twice. The only Contemptor that received a points drop was the Relic, and the only Contemptor whose movement doesn't degrade is, once again, the Relic. A quick rundown of the points changes:

Codex, Mortis, and Hellforged Contemptor: ca 2019 - 88 ppm vs ca 2020 - 105 ppm, up 19%

Contemptor Galatus: ca 2019 - 155 ppm vs ca 2020 - 175 ppm, up 13%

Contemptor Achillus: ca 2019 - 130 ppm vs ca 2020 - 160 ppm, up 23%. Though, to be fair, this is misleading, as all its ranged weapons saw a 5 point drop. As they are taken in 2s this would mean the true increase is 15%.

Relic Contemptor: ca 2019 - 110 ppm vs ca 2020 105 ppm, down 4%

In a ca that saw almost everything increased across the board, the decrease on the Relic Contemptor is odd, and the only explanation I can think of is that all Contemptors were priced according to their name, assuming that they had the same rules and stats. They do not. If the Relic Contemptor had received the same % of increase as the other astartes Contemptors it would have gone to 131 ppm, though gw's insistence on pricing things in numbers divisible by five would mean it would be rounded down to 130 ppm.

As ERJAK points out, the under costing of this unit is one of the reasons it was seen as a better choice than Exorcists in the winning list. If the trio of Contempors had costed 75 points more would that have made the Exorcists a better choice? Maybe, maybe not. But 75 points is not inconsequential in a high end competitive list. Yes, the Relic Contemptor is currently significantly underpriced, but that is not the fault of Forge World, it is the fault of gw's bizarre points in ca 2020.

Two final thoughts:

First: although almost all the weapon options for the various Contemptors either stayed the same in ca 2020 or were given small adjustments to make them divisible by 5, the butcher cannon was increased from 25 points to 35, a 40% increase. I find this arbitrary, as it only affects a single faction and the weapon didn't seem to be particularly over performing to me. I'm sure others would disagree.

Second: for those who say that the original Forge World Indexes were OP, I give you those books original points costs for the astartes Contemptors:

Hellforged Contemptor: 116 ppm

Mortis Contemptor: 106 ppm

Relic Contemptor: 135 ppm

So, given we know the points for these units in ca 2019, ca 2020, and the original Forge World Indexes, if it is your opinion that they are too cheap, who exactly made them too cheap? Forge World, or gw?

There ERJAK, I tried to be less salty, did my grammar improve?

I think you guys should probably cool down about FW rules. There's a lot coming regarding them. I predict many people will be surprised

Lemondish wrote:
I think you guys should probably cool down about FW rules. There's a lot coming regarding them. I predict many people will be surprised

Well, the CA points were surprise enough for me tbh.

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders whether they're holding back the new FW books in order to keep selling the undercosted stuff for a few more months before dropping the hammer and getting the meta chasers to buy something else instead.

But then the realist in me looks at the CA2020 points overall and says: "There's no way the people responsible for this are competent enough to execute any sort of plan at all, much less an evil genius plan."

yukishiro1 wrote:
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders whether they're holding back the new FW books in order to keep selling the undercosted stuff for a few more months before dropping the hammer and getting the meta chasers to buy something else instead.

But then the realist in me looks at the CA2020 points overall and says: "There's no way the people responsible for this are competent enough to execute any sort of plan at all, much less an evil genius plan."

That basically sums up why all these conspiracy theories are nonsense. GW constantly fails to write models and books with rules decent enough to generate sales by certain things just not being worthless paperweights, but somehow these people are convinced that GW knows their game well enough to generate sales through minor tweaks.
Not to mention that is has been proven that a healthy, well-balanced game will always generate more sales than one constantly tilting the scales in different directions.

The best they can do in that regard is pretty much what the 9th edition points were. Take the whole thing, shake it up as much as possible and hope for a new meta that favors different units than before.

Proven where? Gw has never been balanced.　instead they do unsubtle　changes and are　best selling miniatures.

You don't　need to be　competent to do subtle changes to sell stuff when you do unsubtle changes. It's easy to nerf to death and buff to op. It's balanced that takes skill.

Other companies go for balanced games...but their sales suck　compared to gw.

tneva82 wrote:
Proven where? Gw has never been balanced.　instead they do unsubtle　changes and are　best selling miniatures.

You don't　need to be　competent to do subtle changes to sell stuff when you do unsubtle changes. It's easy to nerf to death and buff to op. It's balanced that takes skill.

Other companies go for balanced games...but their sales suck　compared to gw.

CA19 Necrons changes. None of the units that got buffs became meta.

 vict0988 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Proven where? Gw has never been balanced.　instead they do unsubtle　changes and are　best selling miniatures.

You don't　need to be　competent to do subtle changes to sell stuff when you do unsubtle changes. It's easy to nerf to death and buff to op. It's balanced that takes skill.

Other companies go for balanced games...but their sales suck　compared to gw.

CA19 Necrons changes. None of the units that got buffs became meta.

TBF, i think the issue is more inline that the rulesteam attempts balance and often fails at it miserably due to a lack of coordination skill and controll/oversight and planning, and that the higher ups on occaison intervene, cue the whole wraithknight debacle.

Not Online!!! wrote:
TBF, i think the issue is more inline that the rulesteam attempts balance and often fails at it miserably due to a lack of coordination skill and controll/oversight and planning, and that the higher ups on occaison intervene, cue the whole wraithknight debacle.

Cue "new GW is a lie!!!" - but I think its safe to say they made minimal attempt to balance the game before 8th. CA updates are hardly perfect, but they beat codex creep, codex creep, woops we broke the game, have a new edition to try and fix it. Subdued codex, subdued codex... this is boring, lets go back to the creep. (I feel this covers fantasy and 40k for about 20 years)

Anyway, my main take away continues to be that secondaries are a problem, not this unit is overpowered or that we should all ban forgeworld etc.

This could very well be the most "lists win games" period in a while - because there are various lists I can imagine which will easily allow your opponent to max out on secondaries, while their list gives very little, and that's a near impossible mountain to climb.

Admittedly this will likely shake out over time, but it could result in a very unforgiving meta, even amongst relatively casual players.

Lemondish wrote:
I think you guys should probably cool down about FW rules. There's a lot coming regarding them. I predict many people will be surprised

Source? Or is this just speculation? Or information from a guy who knows a guy, who knows a guy, who mops the floors at your local gw every Thursday?

Also: agreed with Tyel on issues regarding secondaries.

Tyel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
TBF, i think the issue is more inline that the rulesteam attempts balance and often fails at it miserably due to a lack of coordination skill and controll/oversight and planning, and that the higher ups on occaison intervene, cue the whole wraithknight debacle.

Cue "new GW is a lie!!!" - but I think its safe to say they made minimal attempt to balance the game before 8th. CA updates are hardly perfect, but they beat codex creep, codex creep, woops we broke the game, have a new edition to try and fix it. Subdued codex, subdued codex... this is boring, lets go back to the creep. (I feel this covers fantasy and 40k for about 20 years)

Anyway, my main take away continues to be that secondaries are a problem, not this unit is overpowered or that we should all ban forgeworld etc.

This could very well be the most "lists win games" period in a while - because there are various lists I can imagine which will easily allow your opponent to max out on secondaries, while their list gives very little, and that's a near impossible mountain to climb.

Admittedly this will likely shake out over time, but it could result in a very unforgiving meta, even amongst relatively casual players.

For those that played CA missions, then yes having objectives that influence your list building is a novelty (not 100% true though).
For ITC players, the current secondaries influence list building much much less than the old ITC secondaries.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I think you guys should probably cool down about FW rules. There's a lot coming regarding them. I predict many people will be surprised

Source? Or is this just speculation? Or information from a guy who knows a guy, who knows a guy, who mops the floors at your local gw every Thursday?

Also: agreed with Tyel on issues regarding secondaries.

You jinxed it, calling it now, this thursday, FW indexes !

Okay jokes aside i indeed would like to have actual sources aswell,

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sure. New GW is the old GW and that's way FW is still blatantly pay-to-win and will not change.

People like you desperately trying to white knight they resin-bought tournament points is cute. You played the game and parted from your money to get an edge over better skilled players. I am not excusing GW of offering that option, but neither should you delude yourself into why GW does it that way: because suckers will pay the FW premium to toast opponents with the more "pedestrian" plastic models at the local tournament. That's how that symbiotic relationship works.

maybe back in 7th FW was broken but not 8th and certainly not 9th. There is no Ork FW must have that cant be done better in the regular codex. maybe some people just like the aestehtcic of the models, that would be pretty crazy

People didn''t like leviathan and chaplain dreads more then a bit. The cheap R&H smite bots were also not very fun to play against, specialy when one of them cost less then your single model and had a much better smite with longer range.

The tau suits, before the nerf were unfun to play against too.

Karol wrote:
People didn''t like leviathan and chaplain dreads more then a bit. The cheap R&H smite bots were also not very fun to play against, specialy when one of them cost less then your single model and had a much better smite with longer range.

The tau suits, before the nerf were unfun to play against too.

by that logic GK should've been curbed long ago.
As should literally everything else that ever was slighly unfun to play aginst.
What do you mean half the codexes would be empty?