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Dukeofstuff wrote:
I note that there is a sisters heavy support thing, sort of analogous to a devastator squad, the name I am forgetting, that can take all multimelta or all heavy flamer. That's a possibility for you -- you could sneak in a sisters detachment of 3 of them, and they ARE purely human, but you could sneak them in as valourous hearts with a sister behind them (the singer that grants -1 extra ap ignore) and thus give them iggy 1 and 2 ap. So they would be really hard to shift units and give your army a flamer group in the center of..
cannoness (with combiflamer)
3 x 3 squads retributors (superior with combiflamer, 4x retributors with heavy flamer)
imagifier (for -1 AND -2 ignore)

Sure, you don't get a total sistes army, but you can actually if you wanted to load these flamer gals into 3 flamer tanks, for a ground mobile rocking inferno of flamers. While they aRE human statline, the sisters get the benefit of power armor saves!

That's potentially just from the sisters 4d6 normal flamer hits, 12d6 heavy flamer hits (+4 range? is that really 16 inch flamers) and 6d6 immolator turret flamer hits.

I think that gets you started really solidly, too, because you are in transports .. then you can be in cover .. AND ignore a LOT of ap while the enemy tries to pop you and you fail most of your saves only on a 2+. For the maximal humor, include a hospitaler sister as well, just to keep bringing them back.

Editor's note. DOS means well, but he confesses he is a gaurd player who has dabbled in sistes only theoretically as yet and hasn't glued more than 3 squads together. Doesn't own any of these retributioners and only one immolator tank/transport. But thinks this would be a cool themeatic concept with perhaps some resilience.


So, New topic? I am invited -- I own a ticket now -- to a GT tournament in 2 weeks. My usual army is (as many of you know) something like this in scions/psykers and usually a single lonely manticore in the corner.

Suggestions are VERY welcome. I have 2 weeks to paint up to snuff. My likely army will get posted in the army list (feel free to chime in on any strength or weakness you see) in a few minutes. I haven't gotten many competitive games in in nine and I usually avoid GT tournaments (I play in small tournaments but never a GT in my life, their longer days mean I can't usually get off work. So I want to do as well as I can, of course, lest the other people I know all laugh at me.)

As someone who plays Sisters and Guard... I wouldn't add such a detachment to a Guard army. I wouldn't add it to a Sisters army either.

Like, seriously, don't go that ham on Rets with Heavy Flamers. You don't want flame guns that badly to have 18 heavy flamers, period, much less to pay that many points and CP for them. Arguably, you don't want the flame guns at all.


Honestly, I'm not entirely certain adding Sisters to Guard really improves your army as a Guard army, and adding Guard to Sisters almost certainly makes your Sisters army worse.

Retributors have the following options:
Heavy Bolters - As Guard, every one of your tanks comes with one of these. And even at damage 2, they're not nearly worth writing home about. You don't need to buy 4 more of them for an additional CP cost.
Heavy Flamers - Compared with Heavy Bolters, Flamers basically exist for use in overwatch. Except overwatch costs a CP and is 1/turn, and of course it doesn't actually un-stick your tanks, and of course if you have them on Rets they're not able to fire overwatch in support of all the things you care about not having charged, so like yeah, pass. Also, like, your tanks can all take them if you really, really want flame guns, and your tanks move faster so will be able to use them better anyway. It takes 2CP for Rets to equal the threat range of a 10" move tank, and a 12" move tank has much more threat.
Multimeltas - Now we're cooking with gas. This is what Rets are for right now, using their multimeltas to do a credible Eradicator impression. Except, they cost more and are squishier than Eradicators, and you're Guard, not Sisters, so you might as well get the best choice for those 2CP and not settle for second best. Just take Eradicators and do your thing. Make them Raven Guard so you can deep strike them anywhere. Make them Salamanders so everyone hates you. Whatever. Profit.


If you're souping in Sisters, you should be pulling in the stuff sisters are good at that you aren't: close quarters combat. Ms. Stabby the Canoness, Repentia, Arcos, Mortifiers, etc. are the units you're looking to add to your Guard army.

DOS I must live vicariously through your army.

I do now humbly propose scions with a dash of space wives. Including at least 1 unit of fully tooled MM retributors to clown on all those erads.

dominuschao wrote:
DOS I must live vicariously through your army.

I do now humbly propose scions with a dash of space wives. Including at least 1 unit of fully tooled MM retributors to clown on all those erads.

First off, seriously?



Second off, just take the Eradicators. They're cheaper, tougher, and have better support for the same or fewer points. They're a lot tougher. Also, the Space Marine Chapter rules and stratagems are better than the Sisters of Battle order rules and stratagems for melta-armed troops. Like raven guard will let your infiltrate outflank to pick the targets you want when Sisters would be confined to walking on at the board edge, Salamanders will give them wound re-rolls, you can take a custom chapter success to unlock the stratagems while also having like extended range and +1 armor, etc.

By comparison, Valorous Heart requires you to invest in support options to be good, which since they're an add-on unit to a mostly Guard army you don't want to invest in, and Bloody Rose, the meta Sisters order, benefits melee units. Argent Shroud could theoretically benefit you, but when you outflank on from strategic reserves you can't advance anyway, and for Our Martyred lady you won't have lost any models when you walk on and shoot. You proceed to die immediately in the next turn because you're T3 Sv3+ within 12" of the enemy.

In short, if you're going to plug and play a melta unit into your Guard list, Eradicators are better than Rets. Or, staying in Guard and not paying the CP tax, you can buy a Devil Dog for 130 points with a Multimelta to do a reasonably convincing if less reliable Eradicator impression coming off the outflank. Or just buy a Leman Russ Demolisher and drive up the board. There are a lot of options you have for this capability, and while Rets aren't the worst one, if you're going to pay the 2 or 3 CP to include a second detachment for an out-of-faction unit, you really shouldn't settle for second or third best.




If you're dead set on SistersxGuard, focus on taking Mortifiers and/or Repentia. Mortifiers are very plug and play because they don't receive order bonuses anyway, and are solid, cheap, moderately resilient, and reasonably killy. Repentia are the Sisters' power unit, and will kill things in close quarters combat after your deliver them from a Rhino. Both of these units add something you don't have as IG: fast moving, high lethality melee units that can get up the board quickly to quickly apply pressure to the enemy and also demand immediate servicing. They'll take fire off of your tanks and men following behind them, contain the enemy while they're alive, and of course, kill them very dead very quickly.



By the time you're incorporating 140 point units of Multimeltas in 130 point armored transports into your SistersxGuard list, you're reaching the point where the Sisters half is essentially better at everything than the Guard half except NLoS fire, and you should just drop the IG half and play Sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@DukeofStuff

I reviewed your list. I think you may be deficient in anti-armor capability. I figure you're planning on relying on your plasmaguns to kill enemy tanks, but that's actually easier said than done, and even if you don't see any or many at top tables you're going to run into jank at lower tables and some of that may include tanks.

Also, is there a particularly reason you picked to have old grudges and so many relics? You've spend a lot of your CP on pre-game stuff, and may find yourself running out pretty quickly. While you don't have access to a lot of the IG stratagems since you don't have their dependent units, I'm not sure spending that many off the bat is a good idea especially if you're just buying fancy bolt pistols with it.

I think DOS reply with the flamer Rets was to my question which baseline human options that can take all flamers are legal to include in a guard army. It was not about efficiency, just legality. Hence the mentioning of Retributors that can do that.

But I think I will stick to the DKOK heavy weapons squads and model each heavy flamer as two dudes with a flamer each in a fitting big base.

He is correct... I was trying only to answer the question and not to optimize what sounded a theme list.

you are also right in identifying my main worry with that list.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
He is correct... I was trying only to answer the question and not to optimize what sounded a theme list.

you are also right in identifying my main worry with that list.

Sorry. I missed that.


Anyway, onto competitive lists.

A tournament list has to be able to both handle what you expect to see on the top tables, and also handle the jank that you will see on the bottom tables while scoring highly against both.

For the top tables, you need to watch out for whatever the space marine meta settles on [probably something with Deathwing and Eradicators and who else knows what], plus Harlequins, Ghaz and the Ladz, and a couple of other lists that are out there, and possibly the Silver Tide. You want to be able to beat and score highly in all of these matchups, so you should be thinking about what secondaries you're going to take, what secondaries you're going to give up, and how you're going to win on primary in all of these matchups. And you should think about doing so while going second.

Winning on Primary involves being able to charge onto a point and then have enough guys left over on the point after the enemy's turn to secure that point. This is hard for Guard. I recommend having charge-catchers ahead of the units holding the objectives that are kind of lame and low value [2 staggered ranks of infantry, basically] plus objective holders who are also lame and low value so the enemy is in the unenviable position of having to use their firepower to clear out the otherwise ignorable charge-catchers to be able to charge your objective holders off a point, and thus sparing your heavy hitters. If they shoot your objective holders off a point, since they couldn't walk past your charge catchers, they don't hold the point either and you can keep pushing them back further away from the points. Either way, taking points for you is going to involve directing a lot of firepower against units you didn't want to, and then holding them is going to involve losing lots of units for little meaningful gain, so expect to take pretty significant attrition.
Keep in mind that IG has best-in-game ability to reach out and touch someone, so leverage that to paste their units holding their natural objectives. If you shoot them off their own objectives, even if you can't take them, you're setting them back on scoring for a turn and they have to peel off units that were placing pressure on your front to go back and hold them, so it's a double win for you. Leverage your artillery, and also f*** Duty Eternal.

Secondaries are also hard for Guard, because you give up Bring it Down, and then you also give up Thin Their Ranks. They have their pick of secondaries for their last one, so they can take the easiest one for them. The candidates here are Engage, Scramble, and Banners, and whichever they choose it is critically vital for your to aggressively deny it.
Against Engage, you're probably not going to keep them entirely off Engage, but do your best to zone them out of at least one of the zones just by body blocking them with Infantry. If you can keep them to 10, you're already doing okay, and if you can make them fail it entirely in one or more turns, you're doing really well. One turn off entirely is equivalent to mitigating it for 2 turns, so you know, keep that in mind if it's an option.
Against Banners, you want to aggressively deny them their banner points. Banners is basically tied to playing the primaries, so primary even harder, but also consider making long dives with throwaway units to decap their rear points. Keep them to 10 or less on banners, and if you can, try to keep them to 5 or less.
Against Scramble, zone your deploy, and do it with trash units that they don't want to be dedicating their long range fire into killing. This way they have more incentive to leave your big guns alone if they want to score points, and if your guns die you can take solace in the fact that it's harder for them to beat you on points now. If you can keep them out by turn 3, then they have to walk to your deploy to scramble, and if they can also just waltz in with a unit and do it then they also probably won the game on primaries and you're done anyway.

Then you get into what you're going to do for your three secondaries:
You want Engage. With lots of cheapy units, you should be able to task throw away units with getting a high score on engage even if you don't win on points, but you want to be pressuring all fronts anyway.
Scramblers is easy for you with throwaway scions doing the close drop ability. On the other hand, since you're almost certainly going to be down on secondaries no matter what, and Banners is tied to winning on Primaries, you could also go in on Banners and primary harder. Don't pick banners on the missions where there's less than 2 natural objectives though.

You want to avoid While We Stand, because you're not going to be able to keep your three most expensive units alive. Odds are your opponent will yield at least one easier kill objective, but won't yield it for max, but I can't think of another easy secondary.




Then we get to the jank lists on the bottom tables. You probably won't see too many tanks at high levels, because Erads exist and kind of make them unviable, but you can definitely expect to see plenty of lists with like one or two or maybe many vehicles at low levels. You need to be able to not only not die to these, you have to beat them soundly. Focus on getting those primary points. Your secondaries are pretty much you based, so continue to do as best you can there.
The key will be to not open yourself up to being in a "well, I guess I die now" situation because you meet that one guy with 2 Repulsors and/or a bunch of Dreadnoughts and nothing you have can kill them. Don't let that happen to you, and to do this you need guns and you need guns that can kill tanks. Fortunately, many guns that kill tanks for you also kill heavy infantry and infantry in general good, because we have so many blast weapons that deal a moderate number of high strength, mid AP, mid damage shots. This is good, but Dreadnoughts will be the bane of your existence. Consider including at least one unit that can definitely without a doubt kill a redemptor dreadnought and not be too concerned about duty eternal.


With regards to your list in specific, I think that you might be able to handle yourself near the top with good piloting. All the people who say that there's no strategy and it's only listbuilding or whatever are wrong, piloting the list well and knowing strategically how you're going to win is way more important. However, list building is very important because it's where you chose what options and answers you're going to have, and I think you're going to have a rough time if you come across that one guy who's like "hahahaha.... Redemptors go BRRRR". You just don't have an answer for them, and don't have enough infantry to keep holding points against it for very long.

So either i dip for a manticore duo... Or swappo in some meltas. Or give up my sniperball amndreallocatte points.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So either i dip for a manticore duo... Or swappo in some meltas. Or give up my sniperball amndreallocatte points.

Honestly, I have no idea. Those were just my thoughts on competitive listbuilding for guard.

I definitely think Manticores might be a good include in any Guard list, but your current entirely list is explicitly Scions, which is pretty short on options.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So either i dip for a manticore duo... Or swappo in some meltas. Or give up my sniperball amndreallocatte points.

As a guy who runs a full payload manticore every game I don't think I can leave home without it. I plan on jumping to two at 1500 in my league. With HK missiles being s10 now to boot they're just too good to not bring.

I will say meltas are very nice, but I use them on my screening infantry. I normally like to keep infantry cheap, but when your choice is 100 men with 10 meltas or 110 men with no melta, the choice is pretty obvious. It's a 5pt upgrade that can do 3-8 damage to a unit at any moment. Even if you don't kill the target, it will often bait a CP reroll on saves of make an opponent pop a Strat, both of which can be worth the 5pt investment easy. You only need to get lucky with one once and they will pay for themselves almost every single time in my experience. I've had several games now where a lone survivor with a melta finished off an enemy character, vehicle, or even just a lone survivor of an elite squad. Makes your opponent kill every single guardsman whether they want to or not, although whether that's good for you or not depends on list.

That said, for outflanking/deepstriking infantry I prefer plasma. My infantry squads as Catachan are always going to be up close and often have the melta rule kicking in. My SWS, CCS and stormtroopers not so much, they're usually at 9", so the plasma will hit at full power compared to the melta. Also plasma will usually be targeted at squads of tougher models, where a melta is usually just fishing for a lucky shot on a key model, so plasma makes sense to concentrate on small groups for best order usage while meltas are just a single weapon in a throwaway squad.

I don't usually see snipers doing much and they are dependent on matchup. They can be good but if I had to pick between manticores, special weapons, and snipers I'd drop the snipers in a heartbeat.

My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.

Can we still use everything from out PA book?
All stratas and stuff?
Or is there a full reset when 9th came out?

PA is fine vigilous is not

Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.

I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.

 Smotejob wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.

I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.

How are you running your avenger? I've had a hard time finding a load out I liked for the points

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.

I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.

How are you running your avenger? I've had a hard time finding a load out I liked for the points

Two hellstrikes and two lascannon. Leaves it open to be a decent tank hunter as well. All this usually deletes characters reliably if left vulnerable, else it hunts elites or tanks.

 Smotejob wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.

I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.

How are you running your avenger? I've had a hard time finding a load out I liked for the points

Two hellstrikes and two lascannon. Leaves it open to be a decent tank hunter as well. All this usually deletes characters reliably if left vulnerable, else it hunts elites or tanks.

Whats everyones thoughts on the thunderbolt? That Cadillac of the skies has always been a personal favorite of mine but its also been pricey. but with 4 autocannons, 2 lascannons, and 4 hellstrike missiles I can certainly see it being an anti tank wrecking ball, especially now that its not getting -1 to hit!

So, I am kicking around a soup list gaurd/ravengaurd for the upcoming GT. I actually have all the models I need, surprisingly, although would have to build a few stormtroopers (not a problem) and the 6 bladegaurd.

It tries to use the 3 fields approach and is, I confess, a bit bland in that I usually run a lot of psykers and they are absent here.

I don't make soup lists often of late. Any feedback is welcome, here, or in pm.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/26/inside-imperial-armour-compendium/

Krieg players, I'm so sorry. You might have the absolute worst trait in the game, and that's coming from a guy who plays Metallica Admech. Not to mention many units going legends, including the gorgon for some reason. If you don't understand what I'm talking about read the whole article, all the way down to the little note at the bottom.

The krieg trait let's you ignore LD modifiers, but you lose your morale immunity, and the 4+ to shoot/swing one time is a joke. You get a single (1) melee attack with a character/vehicle, or shoot with a single weapon on your worst bracket. I mean yeah, it'll come up occasionally, but it's pretty awful compared to even mediocre traits like Valhallans

Also, I checked Greater Good. The Relentless strat that lets you use your top damage table can't even be realistically used with the krieg trait. It can only be used at the start of YOUR turn, and stops being used when your turn ends. The only time it can ever work with the krieg trait is if you have something like a Leman Russ Executioner kill itself while overcharging in your shooting phase, where it might, if it doesn't explode and passes the 4+ roll, get to shoot another d6 shots with it's turret weapon.

Yea that trait is brutal. No love for IG, even from forge world.

Honestly the more games of 9th I play, the more I'm struggling to see what competitive edge guard have. I dont want to be all boo hoo pity party, and would love someone to show me wrong, but as far as I have been experiencing...
Our damage output is not bad, but not incredible either.
Our survivability is straight awful, and its not like our units are incredible point efficient to make up for it.
I love my tanks, but ANY form of dedicated anti tank cuts through Leman Russes like a hot knife through butter. Our best melee unit, bullgryn, pail in comparison to any decent CC unit other races have. Our bad accuracy makes even our best guns struggle to perform. We have some decent stratagems, but once again not when compared to other races.

I love my guard but am having trouble placing them as competitive at all.

Yeah, that it is absolutely a gut punch for anyone looking for a meaningful update for the ol Death Korps. I feel for the DKoK players who have been faithfully drumming on as the marginalized lesser ruleset for so long, and now when they have a chance to address that disparity they basically spit in your face. Keeping the old Cult of Sacrifice would have been better to be honest, at least in terms of the morale trait. They could have made it so you were at full wounds bracket for when they shoot/die on the 4+.

What a waste.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Yea that trait is brutal. No love for IG, even from forge world.

Honestly the more games of 9th I play, the more I'm struggling to see what competitive edge guard have. I dont want to be all boo hoo pity party, and would love someone to show me wrong, but as far as I have been experiencing...
Our damage output is not bad, but not incredible either.
Our survivability is straight awful, and its not like our units are incredible point efficient to make up for it.
I love my tanks, but ANY form of dedicated anti tank cuts through Leman Russes like a hot knife through butter. Our best melee unit, bullgryn, pail in comparison to any decent CC unit other races have. Our bad accuracy makes even our best guns struggle to perform. We have some decent stratagems, but once again not when compared to other races.

I love my guard but am having trouble placing them as competitive at all.

That's because there isn't a competitive edge for Guard.

This edition is all about melee in the middle, and also hates light infantry and heavy vehicles.

Also, the mission pack is designed explicitly to hate you, with two simultaneously choose-able secondary objectives that most normal IG lists can't help but either full-yield or at least give up a lot of points for, while there are exactly 0 such objectives that a normal Space Marine list will do the same for.



That said, I don't think it's impossible, just the odds are stacked against you. I said my piece a few pages ago about what I think needs to be considered and planned around when drafting your list.

Relax dudes, we haven' t seen the whole package. These warhammer community Leaks are usually totaly misleading. I remeber very well such leaks about ork codex and ork PA book. Bunch of leaks, tons of emotions and than puff! There are some strategems or whatever makeing total different context....

But maybe.... it ' s just a hope speaking out of me....

 Tomsug wrote:
Relax dudes, we haven' t seen the whole package. These warhammer community Leaks are usually totaly misleading. I remeber very well such leaks about ork codex and ork PA book. Bunch of leaks, tons of emotions and than puff! There are some strategems or whatever makeing total different context....

But maybe.... it ' s just a hope speaking out of me....

What I said wasn't about DKoK. Just about playing Guard in general. It's an uphill battle, I have no way to make it nicer. Basically everything about this edition hates "conventional" guard lists of inexpensive light shooting infantry backed by inexpensive heavy long-ranged vehicles. With games largely decided by the ability to take and hold center-field objectives using CQC power, and having two secondaries that simultaneously score massively against us you're going to really have to tool your list carefully to know how you're going to score every point and prevent every point before you start. And that's before getting into the existence of Eradicators and Marines in general, which have highly available and super-common tools that just kind of hard counter the things in "conventional" guard lists. Even "unconventional" guard lists like massed Bullgryn or Catachan Meleeball aren't that strong relative to what other factions that are actually good at that are putting on the table.

Unless you think the FW book is going to change things, in which case, there's hope, but I don't expect anything to change. Nothing in that IG list is a unit that isn't in the general IG paradigm of light shooting infantry and heavy tanks, and most of it is random stuff that goes in a super heavy detachment and thus has basically a minimum of chances to see the field short of being meta-skewingly broken [which is also unlikely].


That said, there's hope. Plan carefully about how you're going to win, build your list carefully, and keep the meta in mind.

The dkok regimental trait really shouldn’t have a 4+ roll...
It’s horribly restrictive as it is anyway.
First only limited to characters and vehicles.
Dkok don’t have any meaningful characters that would benefit from a single weapon hit on death.
Vehicles first off fire at lowest profile which is usually a 6+
Then if in combat can’t use blast
Then it doesn’t even work if they explode.
And only a single shot from 1 weapon.

It basically is just a waste of time rolling dice. If it was a single hit it still would be bs6 non blast in most cases.

I get the cult of sacrifice morale Change sucks but guard wasn’t having morale issues this addition regardless.

I think krieg will be fine and likely competitive. They still have engineers and deathriders exclusively which are both decent units... it’s all about points and rules right now.

One of the very, very few characters that might occassionally make something out of it might be the Death rider commander.

If he is in CC and dies the turn he charged he could at least get of one last hunting lance attack. If he is not in CC and has not yet used his demolition charge (if it is still with us), he might have a small chance of using it before dying. But as gungo said: that's a pretty niche example for a trait that is mostly just some pointless rolling.

And on vehicles it might at least be usable with flamer stuff like the Malcador infernus or the Cyclops, but that too is a very small and unlikely advantage.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
One of the very, very few characters that might occassionally make something out of it might be the Death rider commander.

If he is in CC and dies the turn he charged he could at least get of one last hunting lance attack. If he is not in CC and has not yet used his demolition charge (if it is still with us), he might have a small chance of using it before dying. But as gungo said: that's a pretty niche example for a trait that is mostly just some pointless rolling.

And on vehicles it might at least be usable with flamer stuff like the Malcador infernus or the Cyclops, but that too is a very small and unlikely advantage.

with the changes to flamer ranges this does make hull mounted flamers better though...
But honestly this rule should have been a single hit roll per model that was destroyed. Then it would have been decent. Granting additional hits on death is very krieg like...

So over last weekend, I actually converted up an entire (if small) army of stormtrooper grenadiers with nice plasma guns and hotshotlasguns and a few officers, in the hopes of fielding a patroll with a squadron of conquerer battle cannon leman russes I already built.

Seriously what the hell.

Oh well, at least my ... THOSE TOO?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/26/inside-imperial-armour-compendium/

Krieg players, I'm so sorry. You might have the absolute worst trait in the game, and that's coming from a guy who plays Metallica Admech. Not to mention many units going legends, including the gorgon for some reason. If you don't understand what I'm talking about read the whole article, all the way down to the little note at the bottom.

The krieg trait let's you ignore LD modifiers, but you lose your morale immunity, and the 4+ to shoot/swing one time is a joke. You get a single (1) melee attack with a character/vehicle, or shoot with a single weapon on your worst bracket. I mean yeah, it'll come up occasionally, but it's pretty awful compared to even mediocre traits like Valhallans

Also, I checked Greater Good. The Relentless strat that lets you use your top damage table can't even be realistically used with the krieg trait. It can only be used at the start of YOUR turn, and stops being used when your turn ends. The only time it can ever work with the krieg trait is if you have something like a Leman Russ Executioner kill itself while overcharging in your shooting phase, where it might, if it doesn't explode and passes the 4+ roll, get to shoot another d6 shots with it's turret weapon.

The most use I see for the Krieg trait is a Hellhound who has as 50% chance of not exploding and then another 50% chance of passing the 4+ (so basically, you'll want a 1-3, immediately followed by a 4-6) and then firing his 2D6 auto-hit Inferno Cannon one last time.

On another note, after having a succesful game against Space Wolves yesterday, I decided to switch out my traditional artillery park (2 Basiliks, 1 Manticore) for 2 Manticores with Full Payload and a MoO nearby. The SW player was complaining about both Manticores having the same Tank Ace ability though. I got it for the first by sacrificing my Warlord Trait and for the second by spending the 1 CP pre-Battle stratagem, so didn't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible?

 Esmer wrote:
On another note, after having a succesful game against Space Wolves yesterday, I decided to switch out my traditional artillery park (2 Basiliks, 1 Manticore) for 2 Manticores with Full Payload and a MoO nearby. The SW player was complaining about both Manticores having the same Tank Ace ability though. I got it for the first by sacrificing my Warlord Trait and for the second by spending the 1 CP pre-Battle stratagem, so didn't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible?

Unlike Warlord Traits, you can take multiple of the same Tank Ace. You simply can't give one tank two tank aces, but you can give two tanks the same one tank ace just fine.

I don't understand why everybody is moaning here. I reminds me of the days of 7th or 5th.

Guard with a sisters or GSC detachment have been working fine for me. Using the ambush rule to tie up heavy close combat units with say a rockgrinder has done well for me so far. The dagger of a sisters squad in a multimelta immulator has done well by me. I don't see the issue?