Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Just remember.
3+/4++ buffed by an astropath becomes 2+/3++ and buffed again by cover or the strategem becomes 1+/3++ or even 0+/3++. The thigns people will kill crusaders with are going to be marines, and the likely killer units will come with a couple points of AP on their many, many attacks.
10 assault bolters? 30 or 60 shots, 20 or 40 hits, 16 or 32 saves. AP -1.
10 terminators? 40 boltershots, then they charge and show the crusaders what units that bring real armor saves AND stormshields are like.
6 aggressors? 54.
Assault onslaught sidecannon from a redempter, while only 8 shots, gives ap-2.
I guess my point is, if you don't buff the armor, the unit is going to die in a turn or two without ever reaching its shield.
Dukeofstuff, your situation seems like something that's just luck of the draw, at least when it comes to terrain. For terrain to be so thick you cant even move a Russ across the table sounds like a ridiculous amount of terrain. I'd have a talk with that TO, or probably avoid that store in the future. I agree there should be a good amount of terrain but Leman Russe's are not big tanks, if they can't move on the table something is horribly wrong. That is going to dramatically skew lists and not in a good way, I can only assume they absolutely hate superheavies and are trying to soft ban them. But I can't speak for your club, it could just be an honest mixup.
As for being competitive, I feel like I repeat myself a lot, but I feel like it boils down to guardsmen and artillery, plus some sort of reserved second wave of either special weapon teams or stormtroopers.
In some way shape or form, guard must have a way to be competitive that we've just not found yet. Green tide orks can win, horde nids can win. Horde guard, in some way, must be competitive. I'm tempted to try a list with 0 vehicles, just guardsmen, stormtroopers, and a big mob of Bullgryn, but really the manticores feel like a pretty key ingredient. Perhaps you could bring additional artillery, like Armageddon Medusa, so you get the hitting power of a demolisher but don't need to see the target, or just a couple basilisks for consistent backup damage. Maybe the secret sauce is a big old drop of stormtroopers with Lambda Lions for decently durable infantry with lots of fire power dropped all over the board. Maybe you say to hell with it, bring 250 guardsmen with wilderness survivors/18" rapid fire and a couple manticores, and just swarm the board. There's something we're not seeing here, we just gotta keep experimenting
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
If one goes the hordy road one might advocate for Deathriders instead of Bullgryns. They don't hit as hard (having lost one attack and now being only WS4+) but you get 3 for each Bullgryn. I currently have 20 counts as Death Riders, but will likely not get to play any time soon. Still just looking at the theory, that's a lot of area covered, relatively speedy, deepstrikable and 60, T4, 4+, 5++ wounds for 300 points.
As some gravy on top they are neither infantry nor swarm, so Knights cannot move over them. Situational, but funny.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Esmer wrote: Another question that came up during my last game: If an IG Commander is performing an action during a turn, can he still dish out orders? My impression was that yes, since it's not explicitedly an aura, but on second thought, I am not so very sure about that.
The valkryie isn't a shooty transport if its cheap (but for 55 points and 1 cp extra, it is, and has 14W and -1 to be hit, too). It has abilities and flexibilities most things in the game lack. A wounded bird can retreat offboard and regroup at the other end, denying the enemy's shorter ranged guns a kill even when you are down to a wound or two.
It can drip soldiers in small units as it flies rapidly across the whole map, simultaneously gaining multiple objectives, sectors, and victory conditions like likebreaker or engage.
And, while its not QUITE a marine twin lascannon, the firepower off a valkyrie is nothing at all to sneeze at. Math it out, and you are certainly still in the fight with that twin lascannon or twin assault cannon rhino.
Esmer wrote: Another question that came up during my last game: If an IG Commander is performing an action during a turn, can he still dish out orders? My impression was that yes, since it's not explicitedly an aura, but on second thought, I am not so very sure about that.
Opinions on this?
It's just one of those things where both yes and no are true answers, depending on how you define certain terms. Personally, I think it matches definition of an Aura as per the BRB Glossary, and thus will be unusable if undertaking an action.
BRB, Page 364 wrote:Aura: A rule that is classified as an aura can affect multiple models or units that meet its criteria and are within a set distance of the model it is on (including that model itself). If a model is within range of multiple auras with the same name, it can only be affected by one of those rules at any one time (pg 202).
Can an Order affect multiple models or units? Yes, since a single unit of 2 models is multiple models. Does an Order have a set of criteria for which models it can affect and are within a set distance of the model it is on? Yes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/20 16:47:55
Orders can only be isssued, per the codex, to a unit, not to a model. So they don't affect individual models, only units, and by their definition NEVER multiple units, and are thus not auras, but something else. If they could affect multiple units, I would see your argument, but they cannot fractionally affect a non unit model or models (as auras can, when you have several marines in the field and several not). If you wish to affect two units with two orders, you must issue two separate orders, one to each.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/20 17:02:18
Dukeofstuff wrote: Orders can only be isssued, per the codex, to a unit, not to a model. So they don't affect individual models, only units, and by their definition NEVER multiple units, and are thus not auras, but something else. If they could affect multiple units, I would see your argument, but they cannot fractionally affect a non unit model or models (as auras can, when you have several marines in the field and several not). If you wish to affect two units with two orders, you must issue two separate orders, one to each.
Err, you do know most Auras affect units, not individual models, right?
This discussion is better for another thread. Shortly put, you can't target individual models wiht an order, the only thing the rules permit is to target one (not multiple) units. So it shares neither of the characteristics that oyur sentence ascribes to units that are CLASSIFIED as auras, which, being classified as an ORDER, the order is already... not.
So poking on the astropath discussion. Would it make sense to you to keep two astropaths together with a tank unit to give psy barrier and nighshroud to the three models in the unit every turn? Assuming there's lots of foot guard out forward to grab objectives and screen (assume in this case 3conscript blobs, 3 10 man infantry blobs, and a malleus psyker dishing out power through knowledge and psychic fortitude, and a lord commisar down field /platoon commander down field)
Note that you can't target 3 tanks as a unit, because they cease to be a unit upon deployment on the board and are operated as 3 separate units from then on for all purposes.
HOWEVER.
If you have, for example, an up armored pair of tanks and a single tank with +1 from the shield spell, you can pick which of the three to slap the -1 to be hit on and makethe whole tank commander column surprisingly hard to kill. Especially if you keep ducking them behidn cover, you tallarn dog you!
I'm thinking I'm going to try pulling the astropaths back from the front lines then and have them try to look after the armor blob then as you suggest in my next match. Good stuff, thanks!
I am going to be getting a Baneblade for Christmas this year. I have decided that I want to either build it as a Baneblade or a Hellhammer.
My question for you... Is the Hellhammer Canon worth the extra points over the Baneblade Canon? Baneblade is twice the range, but it is S9 versus S10 of the Hellhammer. Hellhammer also ignores the armor bonuses from cover.
How valuable is that strength bonus? I feel like it won't make that big of a deal, but I would like to get some other opinions.
BaconCatBug wrote: For something as expensive as a Baneblade I highly recommend you Magnetise it.
Definitely good advice. I will watch that for sure. Thank you!
Regardless of the source, though... How valuable is S10 right now? I feel like T8 is the highest thing in the game currently, so S9 will be just as good against that. Is T5 prolific enough to want to bring S10 weapons?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/22 18:00:18
I think (!) S10 will be worth it in the future, as Gravis armor becomes more common with space Marines. The Aggressor, Eradicator and heavy Intercessor (not sure if I got the last one right) all come in T5, W3, 3+. And the Hellhammer Cannon is pretty optimal against this target, as it wounds on 2+, doesn't give them any save regardless of cover and kills one with every unsaved wound.
Also Necrons also got more T5, W3+ models in form of Skorpek Destroyers and the new objectives have (in my opinion) made Bullgryns (also T5, W3) even more attractive for IG.
In other words: look at the Hellhammer as a tool to better target T5, not necessary T9 when you compare it with the Baneblade
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/22 18:37:52
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
The bane cannon's ap-3 will put average marines in cover on a 5++, 1/3 shots wasted.
The hellhammer in that situation will give them no save at all (-4 ap AND ignore cover) .. and if its shooting at eradicator, aggressor, incepter, or such, you get a few more wounds. So I think its worth it, since it seems in tourney play about every other army is some flavor of marines.
Dukeofstuff wrote: The valkryie isn't a shooty transport if its cheap (but for 55 points and 1 cp extra, it is, and has 14W )o
Why the 1CP?
I usually have at least one pure scions detachment, and that means I can use the scions only unlocked strategem to grant it a -1 to be hit even while hovering (Source, psychic awakening book "the greater good". If its in a pure gaurd detachment that isn't an option. If you plan to float around the board providing dakka though, your BS shooting matters, and so hover matters, and its more important than if you are just a quick delivery vehicle (which can ride in on aircraft and then swap to hover only in the turn you drop your troop).
A cheap valkyrie is just 110 points with a hellstrike and a multilaser, but a good "floating dakka base" valkyrie is between 140 and 165 depending how you exactly equip her, and those are the ones I tend to put the -1 in hover on.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/22 19:33:00
I have an urge to run a blob of conscripts buffed by two astopaths with a psychic barrier and nightshroud, and an inquisitor with Power through knowledge and Psychic fortitude. Add a lord commissar for orders, and its 30 guys with -1 to be hit, +1 save, 5+ Invulnerable, and fearless. As they thin out bring up the next blob. Potentially useful thing to distract or gum up the mid board?
RegularGuy wrote: I have an urge to run a blob of conscripts buffed by two astopaths with a psychic barrier and nightshroud, and an inquisitor with Power through knowledge and Psychic fortitude. Add a lord commissar for orders, and its 30 guys with -1 to be hit, +1 save, 5+ Invulnerable, and fearless. As they thin out bring up the next blob. Potentially useful thing to distract or gum up the mid board?
30 guardsmen with a 3+/4++ is gonna be decently annoying to chew through, you're basically sisters at their most annoying. If you take wilderness survivors, you could theoretically get 2+/4++ conscripts with take cover.
The only issue I have is that this takes a lot of setup to do, you've got 3, THREE pysker powers that need to go off and you're spending a cp for take cover. That's just way too risky to act like an opponent won't deny and ruin your plan. Not to mention you're spending almost as many points on the buffing characters as the conscripts themselves. And you need to go first otherwise the best save you'll have is a 3+.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
That was the meta a few years back, during the deathstar phase, sort of the anti deathstar. Once they nerfed the psyker phase, commissars, and buffed blast weapons, they're really not what they used to be.
I'd forget the commissar. They could still hold an object or tar down an enemy but they still won't be as good as swarm bases like nurglings or scarabs. So how much do you really want to spend on them?
I am still waiting for GW to do the sane thing and reduce conscript points cost before I start considering them again. Judging from Space Marines with their, what, 15 or so Troops choices, giving Guard the option to field 4 pts conscripts, 5 pts infantry and 6 pts Veterans as troops would be both fair and consistent and also relieve the overcrowded Elite slot.
I wouldn't even mind there being a 0-1 or one-infantry-squad-per-conscript/veteran troop limitation of some sort.
Esmer wrote: I am still waiting for GW to do the sane thing and reduce conscript points cost before I start considering them again. Judging from Space Marines with their, what, 15 or so Troops choices, giving Guard the option to field 4 pts conscripts, 5 pts infantry and 6 pts Veterans as troops would be both fair and consistent and also relieve the overcrowded Elite slot.
I wouldn't even mind there being a 0-1 or one-infantry-squad-per-conscript/veteran troop limitation of some sort.
Grots are 5 points, so I dont't thing 4 point conscripts are coming anytime soon. I think at their current cost the 3+/4++ psy barrier + inquisitor combo makes them interesting to throw ahead turn 1 and block enemy movement, to support 3 or 4 infantry squads move move moving ahead as a "second blocking wave" which will resist better than the 3 or 4 infantry squads move move moving ahead of the conscripts.
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Regarding that rather complex conscript setup:
If I'm not mistaken, the Inquisitor + 2 Astropaths also cost 110 points. So instead you could also get another 22 conscripts. I think in a lot of situations this might be easier, as "Just more conscripts" don't depend in 3 psyker powers going of or alternatively the two Astropaths can protect a more valuable target than a conscript blobs.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 
