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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, I notice the ephrael and kyganil (pardon my spelling) are sort of like the ghost inquisitor duo of the current edition, you can put this sisters character (inexplicably T4 and S4 with a 4++ shield and -1 to be hit) and her ex-harlequin in your gaurd list for 125 points. They can be part of a militarum tempests battalion, a cadian patrol, or even an admech one you put in to do repairs. They don't consume the "same" slot that an assassin or inquisitor does, so you can end up with a lot of special stuff in an otherwise "has a reputation for few surprises" style of army.

Is they worth it? I note you could ALSO put this character in admech, marine, or even in an inquisiton detachment for a no-slot, no break the doctrine addition. Ephrael is a bear to kill, for anything we can field, because other than an intrinsic -1 to be hit,3+/4++ and 6W, you also have a 5++ FNP as long as kyganil is nearby. So its got to be about as tanky a choice as old man yarrik himself, and I will also note that she gets a fifth attack if near a simple, astra or sisters ministerium priest.

That and the harleqyins intrinsic fight first (and up to 8 swings) is not a bad combo for 125, even if it adds two MORE characters to the roster.

It seems like you could dribble this into a "gaurdyhammer" list pretty easily, but I am not quite sold on the value 125 points brings. Still, two decent melee characters that consume no slot at all, is not too shabby, I mean, roll 2d6 and on a 5+ dish d3 to d6 mortal wounds? Not terrible for half the package, not at all. Even just throwing his plasma grenades and then charging with blades, you can imagine the harlequin dropping something like 10 gaurd a turn himself. So I reckon this isn't a bad buy if points are available.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/27 18:16:34


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Are Rough Riders still good, how do they fit in 9th?
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Are Rough Riders still good, how do they fit in 9th?

I don't know about good, but always fun. Have yet to play a game in 9th, but in 8th I was known to field 3 full squads of Tallarn and have them screen my outflanking tanks. The reactions I'd get plopping 30 of them in my opponents backfield was always worth it.

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




 BlackoCatto wrote:
Are Rough Riders still good, how do they fit in 9th?


Best mobility and tankyness point per point in a IG army (and they can finally receive orders from the Death Rider Commander now, so MOVE MOVE MOVE is a must)

   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Are Rough Riders still good, how do they fit in 9th?

Initial caveat, they're legends, so technically not legal for most competitive games, although some events do allow them

As for actual rules, they're pretty bad now that most units can outflank, especially with IG. Their melee is pretty bad with no way to improve charge from reserves and even if you make it they won't kill much. Their best use is carrying special weapons, which is done better by stormtroopers and outflanking weapons teams.

The DKOK ones are pretty good, but only available to krieg. You would need to give them their own detachment or do an admech style mixed detachment to get any use out of them. Usually you don't want to do a mixed IG detachment because you lose some good regiment abilities, but I guess if you were going to do some outflanking tallarn shenanigans or outflank some Mordians SWS/CCS to snipe characters those regiments would be ok with losing their doctrine since you're bringing them for theit strats and orders. Might be something worth trying if you have the CP to spare for a patrol.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
Are Rough Riders still good, how do they fit in 9th?

Initial caveat, they're legends, so technically not legal for most competitive games, although some events do allow them

As for actual rules, they're pretty bad now that most units can outflank, especially with IG. Their melee is pretty bad with no way to improve charge from reserves and even if you make it they won't kill much. Their best use is carrying special weapons, which is done better by stormtroopers and outflanking weapons teams.

The DKOK ones are pretty good, but only available to krieg. You would need to give them their own detachment or do an admech style mixed detachment to get any use out of them. Usually you don't want to do a mixed IG detachment because you lose some good regiment abilities, but I guess if you were going to do some outflanking tallarn shenanigans or outflank some Mordians SWS/CCS to snipe characters those regiments would be ok with losing their doctrine since you're bringing them for theit strats and orders. Might be something worth trying if you have the CP to spare for a patrol.


The DKOK Death Riders are NOT Legends though and they're actually one of the main reasons to ally Krieg alongside non-degrading Vehicles atm, so there's no real loss due to IG lacking competitive choices

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/27 21:53:01


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Hey Duke (and anyone else with an opinion):

It seems it would be handy to be able to take out key buffing characters I keep reading about, like the SM apothecary and sangy preist.

I like idea of using a strike fighter, as mentioned earlier, which seems a very 'guard' way of doing it, but how do you rate the actual Assassins?

I am about to pull the trigger on a couple of old-school models. The new ones seem to be stuck to scenery which is bound to get in the way when trying to be stealthy.

My painting and modeling blog:
PaddyMick's Chopshop

 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




 PaddyMick wrote:
Hey Duke (and anyone else with an opinion):

It seems it would be handy to be able to take out key buffing characters I keep reading about, like the SM apothecary and sangy preist.

I like idea of using a strike fighter, as mentioned earlier, which seems a very 'guard' way of doing it, but how do you rate the actual Assassins?

I am about to pull the trigger on a couple of old-school models. The new ones seem to be stuck to scenery which is bound to get in the way when trying to be stealthy.



I do not know the new sniper rules, if any, but the Guard can (or used to?) get sniper rifles left and right and with some of them being BS4 as well; Command Squads, Veterans and Ratlings. Then you get the BS3 SWSs with 3 of them backed by 3 lasguns for extra shots/wounds that can also get orders and worse case the infantry squads as well. Also only a couple of points.

An assassin sounds good, yet again, it would depends on the assassin and how you use it; it would take down whatever you're aiming for barring bad rolls, but won't last long after that, and can't secure objectives as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/29 02:52:13


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





SWS are bs4+.
command squads are bs3+, as are veterans and ratlings.
All of those can get orders except ratlings, which lack the regiment keyword.

The best sniper rules however, are probably mordian's form firing squad order -- few weapons snipe as well as the plasma rifle, and even the laurels can be used to stack FRFSRF with "snipe that man". Sniper weapons are well and good -- but plasma is a guard's best friend.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
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Dakka Veteran





Dukeofstuff wrote:
but plasma is a guard's best friend.


IDK man, mine blow up more than they hit. I think I need a new supplier.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





But. I am confused. Are you telling me that gaurdsmen aren't supposed to die for the cause?

Also, its gaurd, the most reroll 1 ish army in the game. Cause you can have as many as 16 orders a turn, not counting the effects of relics, from your command staff, if you are serious about keeping plasma alive.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Dukeofstuff wrote:
But. I am confused. Are you telling me that gaurdsmen aren't supposed to die for the cause?

Also, its gaurd, the most reroll 1 ish army in the game. Cause you can have as many as 16 orders a turn, not counting the effects of relics, from your command staff, if you are serious about keeping plasma alive.


I was half joking. In the games I've played, even with re-rolls, my Plasmas (which I typically bury in my Infantry Squads) seem to roll more ones than they do hits, although most of the time I'm ordering FRFSRF as I'm either in Rapid Fire range or simply want to tag a unit for the Cadian strategem.

Surprisingly enough, my Scions seem to do better, so that's where I've been bringing them lately.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






I enjoy the hilarity of the plasma foibles. How many opponents ask "Are you sure you want to overcharge?"
You always have to give a good response: "He is worthy to die for the Emperior!" or "We die like men!"

I saw a cool bit of terrain where someone had given a small skeleton a Cadian helmet and a plasma gun

Plasma and melta vets are my favorite infantry these days.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Arent two of those the same category?

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

Regular sniper rifles are pretty bad. A 5-man squad can take all game to down a typical Space Marine character.

I'm not sure about the rest of the Assassins, but I believe the Vindicare is pretty good now at sniping characters, after their update.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





he never misses except on a nat 1 with his gun,
it wounds infantry on 2+ no matter what, and is ap3 and ignores cover, too
it ignores lookoutsir and it ignores invuln shields.
it does d3 damage except a wound roll of 6, it does d6 damage.
it also does 1 MW on a 3+, then roll for a second on a 4+, then roll for a third on a 5+ then roll for a fourth on a 6+
it also gains you a cp if it kills a character.
it also has a 1 cp strat to shoot a separate target (fire again) this shoot phase.
sadly, that target is also limited by line of sight, and by the range of the gun (72 inches), and by the inability to earn a second free command point because that strategem, while free, is one per phase.
it also does d3 mortal wounds (with a strat) to a vehicle "if a hit is scored" (or monster). So you can put d3 mortal wounds on a keeper of secrets by not rolling a 1 on a d6.
Other than that, he is also -1 to be hit, or -2 while in cover, and a character. 100 points, I think its fair costed for a gaurd model.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/04 10:29:25


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

I really hate viewing damage in terms of maximum potential. Expected damage/reliability is far more useful a point of comparison.
For a Vindicare, the chance of you getting a wound through is about 60% when considering a 2+ hit, 2+ wound, 6+ save without rerolls anywhere (which are only available through CP).
D3 wounds isn't amazing, and the chance of proccing the D6 is slim, the exploding mortal wounds is likely only to cause an extra 1-2 wounds.
So, the Vindicare has approximately a 60% chance of causing 2-4 wounds to a target.

Based on that, I'd say it'd be lucky (but plausible) to kill a power armoured marine character in one shot. Although it's more likely two-three shots, especially if they're a Terminator or Gravis.

That's why I say they're fairly decent, but not amazing. Don't expect your 100pt Vindicare to snipe a bloody path through a Space Marine army on the first turn. But he'll make them sweat and probably get a kill or maybe two.

Although on the flip side, the new character rules make him more difficult to protect, so you may want to leave a backfield squad next to him to keep him protected. Perhaps some mortars or something.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/04 10:21:07


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





How many normal snioers would that require?

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

Well, a regular sniper doing 3+/4+/3+ does an average of 0.22 wounds. So that'd be an IG Veteran firing at a regular Space Marine for example.
I had a look online and someone has done a more detailed analysis of the Vindicare which gives an average wounds per turn of about 2.5. So you'd need a squad of 10 veteran snipers to match him on damage output alone against a MeQ.
The Vindicare would get exponetially better against 2+ or better saves though. A 2+ armour save instead of 3+ would halve the damage output of the regular snipers, but only reduce the Vindicare's by 20%.
Although it's worth pointing out that the variance on the Vindicare is far higher. 5 snipers would fairly consistently do 1 wound to a target, but will very rarely do much more than that.
Whereas a Vindicare will cause no damage at all ~1/3 of the time, yet is quite capable of one-shotting a character with a some luck.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/04 14:29:14


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Im looking at the forgeworld sheets, and the Avenger strike fighter and lasier rapier batteries dont look that bad, it appears the strike fighter gets its las cannons for free, at 165 pts it kind of looks very points efficient, the rapier batteries arent so bad when you compare their fire power to like an armored sentinel only packing one lascannon, their 36" range is perfect for the smaller board sizes
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




bat702 wrote:
Im looking at the forgeworld sheets, and the Avenger strike fighter and lasier rapier batteries dont look that bad, it appears the strike fighter gets its las cannons for free, at 165 pts it kind of looks very points efficient, the rapier batteries arent so bad when you compare their fire power to like an armored sentinel only packing one lascannon, their 36" range is perfect for the smaller board sizes


The ASF is perhaps the best Aircraft IG has access to but its output is a bit unrealiable for 165 pts; Krieg Rapier Laser Batteries on the other hand are awesome and well worth their points

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/04 22:48:23


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





How many gaurd snipers would it take extra to account for their having to step in from strategic reserves to get in 30 inch range of the target without being first destroyed by hungry bolterfire. Corollary .. since reserves don't do anythign turn 1, and the vindicaire can shoot at TWO of his foes each turn, how many gaurd snipers does it take to kill 3 marine characters on turn 2, and how many of those can the average marine army kill with its 10 or so autobolter intercessers (60 shots) and perhaps another 100 bolters from other sources? The autobolter unit may have to advance, spend some cp, and pay even to be in "all three phases" so its stuff is all ap-1 as well, if that helps the math, but assume the cagey marine player just sent it forward alone to slaughter gaurd (backed up by maybe 90 other boltershots or assault cannon shots off of various other units, but nary an officer in sight or range.). So a mere 150 shots hit the gaurd side, wounding only 100 gaurd, but killing somewhere more than the 67 expected because the marines are in "that phase" on 60 shots, and probably 30 or 40 of them are assault cannnons.
So after losing 80 gaurd bodies (starting with command squads, then special weapons teams, then veterans squads, then regular gaurds troops 10 mans with a sniper each, how many snipers remain to shoot again on turn 3? Cause the vindicaire takes two more potshots then.

I don't mean this as snark -- I am merely demonstrating why I think that its not correct to describe the vindicaire as "wonky" compared to normal gaurd. Its actually far more consistant and reliable, when you remember that gaurd armies have the three problems of range, need to move, and counterfire, while a vindicaire against the back line of the board often need merely worry about fields of LOS.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/01/04 23:55:29


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in jp
Battleship Captain






The Land of the Rising Sun

This is not data but anecdote.

Yesterday I fielded a Vindicare against Necrons and my opponent made the mistake of leaving his characters exposed. The Vindicare dropped his warlord twice, and a Chronomancer for the giggles (the other Chronomancer suddenly had the need to put a building between the Vindicare and himself) in three turns.

The true strength of the Vindicare came from being able to ignore the -1 to hit, the bubble wrapping my opponent had arranged, the toughness of his boss,and finally the 3++ saves. In comparison a sniper command squad I had in support of the Vindicare only mamaged to score 2 wounds on his characters during the whole game, and only because I got 2 lucky 6s for the mortal wound rule.

Vindicare are beasts because even if on average you will only kill a character about half the time, paying just 100pts for the power to bypass most defenses is very cheap.

M.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 00:16:29


Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.

About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though." 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

It's an excellent point that Vindicare are more survivable, more mobile, and better against a wider range of targets than snipers.
In general I'd say regular snipers are pretty terrible, Vindicare are pretty good.

I'm not sure how they interact with doctrines though.
I believe as long as you spend the CP + reinforcement points to add them to your army before a game they don't ruin any detachment doctrines.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





like inquisitors, vindicaire have no effect on doctrines, and you may include one per "core" detachment (patrol, battalion, or brigade). They are under their own rule (I think its called "agents of the imperium" which is the same mechanic that lets you bring an inquisitor (you can't do both in one detachment) without affecting anything. They don't even remove superdoctrines.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in jp
Battleship Captain






The Land of the Rising Sun

Dukeofstuff wrote:
like inquisitors, vindicaire have no effect on doctrines, and you may include one per "core" detachment (patrol, battalion, or brigade). They are under their own rule (I think its called "agents of the imperium" which is the same mechanic that lets you bring an inquisitor (you can't do both in one detachment) without affecting anything. They don't even remove superdoctrines.

Right, Agents of the Imperium allows you to field one assassin without taking a detachment slot or interfering with the army doctrines. If you take all 4 of them you can field them in a special vanguard detachment with 0 cp cost.

M.

Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.

About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though." 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

KurtAngle2 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
Im looking at the forgeworld sheets, and the Avenger strike fighter and lasier rapier batteries dont look that bad, it appears the strike fighter gets its las cannons for free, at 165 pts it kind of looks very points efficient, the rapier batteries arent so bad when you compare their fire power to like an armored sentinel only packing one lascannon, their 36" range is perfect for the smaller board sizes


The ASF is perhaps the best Aircraft IG has access to but its output is a bit unrealiable for 165 pts; Krieg Rapier Laser Batteries on the other hand are awesome and well worth their points

I don't own a ASF, but I do own a Thunderbolt, how is it looking currently? I'm not even sure of it's current options as I have yet to see it's current data sheet, can it still take additional missiles?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 16:39:38


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

 Salted Diamond wrote:

I don't own a ASF, but I do own a Thunderbolt, how is it looking currently? I'm not even sure of it's current options as I have yet to see it's current data sheet, can it still take additional missiles?


If wahapedia is up to date, (and it has been updated since the last round of changes to forgeworld), then it's 210 points, with a rack of hellstrike missiles for an extra 20.

My painting and modeling blog:
PaddyMick's Chopshop

 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 Miguelsan wrote:
This is not data but anecdote.

Yesterday I fielded a Vindicare against Necrons and my opponent made the mistake of leaving his characters exposed. The Vindicare dropped his warlord twice, and a Chronomancer for the giggles (the other Chronomancer suddenly had the need to put a building between the Vindicare and himself) in three turns.

The true strength of the Vindicare came from being able to ignore the -1 to hit, the bubble wrapping my opponent had arranged, the toughness of his boss,and finally the 3++ saves. In comparison a sniper command squad I had in support of the Vindicare only mamaged to score 2 wounds on his characters during the whole game, and only because I got 2 lucky 6s for the mortal wound rule.

Vindicare are beasts because even if on average you will only kill a character about half the time, paying just 100pts for the power to bypass most defenses is very cheap.

M.

Vindicaire are interesting. On one hand, they're very scary. On the other hand, I've seen them kill one of my models exactly once, and that was a tech priest engineer at the height of their use in 8th. I have an admech dominus who has not only survived being shot multiple times by a vindicaire, but gone on to kill said vindicaire by shooting him to death. Hilariously uncommon and really only possible because the opponent was a knight army, but yeah.

I think the true value of the Vindicaire is not what he can actually kill, but the pyschological effect it has on the opponent. He's got a better chance at dropping a character than anything else out there, and when he rolls hot he can really do some damage, but you have no way of knowing till he takes the shot. While I have a somewhat dismissive attitude towards them because my opponents seem to be very unlucky, I can't deny that I still heavily consider where I move models when one is on the table, especially with how fragile many guard characters are.

Plus, with assassinate being a pretty big secondary objective, the Vindicaire can actively rack up VP too, so its got its upsides. I don't run one, but I can see a lot of good reasons to do so. After all, there's really not a single list out there that he can't do something against. Even pure vehicle or monster lists he can be good to force that last few damage through on a very heavily damaged unit. He has his weaknesses to be sure, namely terrain and finding a good firing spot, but overall there's far worse units to run.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Are massed Sentinels with Heavy Flamers still a good first strike option? I thought about buying a few and using them as a cheap chaff clearing rush down option then maybe camping on objective later.
   
 
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