Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
If that's tailoring, then literally all tactics are.

Not really.

Taking Sentinels in the new codex because the move after shooting stratagem is really strong and you want to take advantage of it is not list tailoring. It's sound tactics that work regardless of who you're playing.

Taking Sentinels against a specific player/group because you know they have a psychological blind spot about evaluating them correctly and will always misplay the situation is list tailoring. You wouldn't do it in a tournament against random strangers because it's an ineffective tactic, the only reason you're putting the unit in your list is to exploit the fact that you know the specific player you're playing against in advance and can make choices aimed at exploiting that specific player's weaknesses.

Meanwhile, big new tank! Really interested to see what the points cost comes in at for the Rogal Dorn and if Baneblades are back in the playable range with their free wargear.

Baneblades will not be playable until GW fixes the core rules. One-way line of sight is a crippling problem, as is the fact that you need to cover the entire table in terrain to mitigate alpha strikes and leave few or no gaps where a Baneblade can fit. And free wargear or not they still look to be less efficient than their points in conventional tanks.

As a GSC player has any datasheets been blessed with the <regiment> keyword in the new codex? Like say the flyers?

So via a review on YT just went though and updated my army list, and is seems that the entire army had a price hike. I'd wager that many others are in the same position so what is everyone cutting to make points?

I want to run all 20 of my metal Tallarn Rough Riders, but at 20 PPM, 200pts a squad is costly, and right now I'm opting to cut my Basilisks to fit them but I'm not sure if that trade will be worth it.

I run a brigade and with platoon commander squads going to 75 (so up 25 from 25pt plt cmdr and 25pt cmd squad) I can't just plop a cheap order thrower in the back with a HWS. I've also had to decide how to fill my elite slots as I had used the command squads for that. I put in a Commissar and added a 2nd priest for now. I know everyone will probably say Scions or Orgyn but I again don't really want to cut any rough riders to make points work and I hate the Ogryn models (list has 8 infantry squads and 3 LRBT's + 1 TC)

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed. I have to say the idea of a super-heavy tank company as an army is extremely tempting - you don't build an army like that to be super-competitive but the idea that you don't just get meltagunned or small arms-ed to death if you do means you can actually put up a decent fight.

My 2k Ork army consisting of 3 Deff dreads 6x Killa Kans both Nauts and a Stompa salute you!

I think after this codex, Im done with Guard.

Well it's out and here's a quick summary.

Winners:
- Leman Russes: Mainly the Executioner and Vanquisher. Battle Tank is great with Gatekeeper but fairly average without it. Demolisher is okay. Rest of the variants aren't worth taking.
- Sentinels: Got a tiny increase but got even more durable. Great for slowing the enemy down.
- Rough Riders: Not durable, but when they get in combat they do massive damage. 10 of them can nearly kill a knight.
- Kasrkins: Can get some massive buffs and are still somewhat cheap for what they can do.

Losers:
- Catachans: Too expensive for what you get, cursed by a 20 year old kit and being stuck with just flamers.
- Scions: Can't take traits, far too expensive for what they can do, suffered from what's in the kit and lost a ton of duplicate weapon options.
- DKOK: Too expensive for what you get. Mini-transhuman doesn't do that much. As most of the anti-infantry weapons shooting at you will be S4 or S5. Best part is 3 special weapons, but you get degrading returns after 2. No voxcaster unless you get rid of the plasma gun.
- FOB: Too expensive for what they do. The anti-infantry version really should have had ignore line-of-sight. Lascannon option is definitely the best, but you can just take a Leman Russ for a few points more.
- Ministorum Priest: They're worse than what we previously had and worse than the current Sister one.

Potential Losers:
- Artillery, all of them. Only if GW remove the Balance Dataslate buff Guard has for indirect. Hitting on 5's and losing a point of AP kills many of them.

Everything else is largely okay, some options here are still better than others.

Jarms48 wrote:
- Sentinels: Got a tiny increase but got even more durable. Great for slowing the enemy down.

Think bigger. Sentinels absolutely murder stuff because of how they get every possible keyword. Take them with lascannons/plasma and missiles and you can buff then with full hit re-rolls, full wound re-rolls, +1 to hit, -1 AP, and +1 strength on all weapons if you want complete overkill. And then for a mere 1 CP you can either move them up to claim an objective from the thing you just killed or JSJ them back behind terrain. TBH Sentinels may be the biggest winners of the entire codex.

- Scions: Can't take traits, far too expensive for what they can do, suffered from what's in the kit and lost a ton of duplicate weapon options.

I'm not so down on them. They're still the cheapest codex option for grabbing RND/BotG (Krieg engineers are 48 points vs. 55 for storm troopers, but who knows how long FW rules will last) and they do have the advantage of being troops if you're trying to play an elite army. And TBH that's most of what they are good for in the current codex.

- Ministorum Priest: They're worse than what we previously had and worse than the current Sister one.

IMO the priest is a significant buff. Yeah, +1 attack is great in comparing dice math calculations but in a real game damage is meaningless if you can't apply it. Rough riders are the only unit we have that's worth caring about charging with and they already have sufficient offense to wipe out anything in their point range, their only weakness is their poor durability. +1 to your charge roll greatly increases the chance that your charge will succeed vs. leaving your unit exposed in the open and promptly slaughtered.

(I suppose technically bullgryn will sometimes want to charge to get the additional movement distance but it's not like you're taking them for their damage so whether or not they get an offensive buff doesn't mean much.)

- Artillery, all of them. Only if GW remove the Balance Dataslate buff Guard has for indirect. Hitting on 5's and losing a point of AP kills many of them.

I'm not sure about that. Basilisks got a major buff in number of shots, flat damage without needing a tank ace buff, and a doctrine option that pretty easily gives them +1 to hit. 4.5 shots at BS 4+ gives you 2.25 hits, 6.5 shots at BS 5+ gives you 2.15. Mortars going to S5 is also a pretty significant buff, although I'm not sure it's enough to make them relevant.

Priests are garbage.

They went from giving always giving away +1A in an AoE (hi Ogryns/Bullgryns/S4 Regiments) to "only" buffing Rough Riders - and have a 33,3% chance of failing.

I always took priests in my lists previously.
I doubt I'll ever use one now.

The field ordnance battery is potentially insanely good….considering Cadian is the best right now anyway… and I’m still leaning into the default regimental trait of auto wound on 6 to hit. Soooo ursela creed ordering a back line of artillery consisting of 4 bombast field guns with take aim… is 4d6 shots at str8 ap-3, 2 dam…with +1 to hit…. That’s insanely good for 65ppm… even worse vs chaos when you use the vengeance strat for +1 to wound… you are annihilating anything they target….
AND ursela can still issue 2x more orders with +1 str… even if indirect fire is nerfed they are still very good w ursela.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick question the relic banner that allows units within 6in to ignore to hit modifiers and fnp… would that ignore indirect fire to hit penalty?

gungo wrote:
Soooo ursela creed ordering a back line of artillery consisting of 4 bombast field guns with take aim… is 4d6 shots at str8 ap-3, 2 dam…with +1 to hit…. That’s insanely good for 65ppm…

It's good, but not that good. 130 points gets you a pair of guns doing 7 shots average at S8/AP-3/D2 with +1 to hit, a Basilisk gets you 6.5 average shots at S10/AP-3/D2 and has easy access to +1 to hit and/or tank orders. And the Basilisk has way better speed and durability. IMO FOBs may have a role but they're not obviously overpowered.

Quick question the relic banner that allows units within 6in to ignore to hit modifiers and fnp… would that ignore indirect fire to hit penalty?

No. The indirect penalty, if it applies, is a modifier to the unit's BS not to the hit roll. This is why it stacks with -1 to hit debuffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:
They went from giving always giving away +1A in an AoE (hi Ogryns/Bullgryns/S4 Regiments) to "only" buffing Rough Riders - and have a 33,3% chance of failing.

They went from buffing a gimmick list to providing a strong buff to one of the best units in the codex. I'll take that trade every time.

The field artillery unit is set to 2 models per unit.

I want to punch the person who wrote that rule.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The field artillery unit is set to 2 models per unit.

I want to punch the person who wrote that rule.

Agh early leak I saw had it as 2-4 size unit….


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

gungo wrote:
Soooo ursela creed ordering a back line of artillery consisting of 4 bombast field guns with take aim… is 4d6 shots at str8 ap-3, 2 dam…with +1 to hit…. That’s insanely good for 65ppm…

It's good, but not that good. 130 points gets you a pair of guns doing 7 shots average at S8/AP-3/D2 with +1 to hit, a Basilisk gets you 6.5 average shots at S10/AP-3/D2 and has easy access to +1 to hit and/or tank orders. And the Basilisk has way better speed and durability. IMO FOBs may have a role but they're not obviously overpowered.

Quick question the relic banner that allows units within 6in to ignore to hit modifiers and fnp… would that ignore indirect fire to hit penalty?

No. The indirect penalty, if it applies, is a modifier to the unit's BS not to the hit roll. This is why it stacks with -1 to hit debuffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:
They went from giving always giving away +1A in an AoE (hi Ogryns/Bullgryns/S4 Regiments) to "only" buffing Rough Riders - and have a 33,3% chance of failing.

They went from buffing a gimmick list to providing a strong buff to one of the best units in the codex. I'll take that trade every time.

Basilisk is 140pts and does not have the regimental or platoon keywords like FOB… it only has artillery and vehicle keywords… which means you need to use a tank to baby sit your artillery and give it tank orders (which work on artilery squadrons) to give it gunners kill on sight for reroll 1 to hit… I don’t see where that +1 to hit is easy for them (taking bombadiers instead of the default regiment ability is bad trade) regardless you are correct basilisks are a more durable unit and needs less support but you trade better accuracy for more str and more durability. (Speed really doesn’t matter on indirect artillery). I’ll likely use ursela to order 2x units of 2 Bombast field guns and a lascannon or autocannon (which are much better with +1 str and ap) hwt.

even Cadian hwt aren’t bad if you take a command squad you can give a hwt reroll hits and wounds of 1, take aim aura for +1 to hit and +1 ap, and ursela gives them 1 str. Making for a decent acurate hwt squad.

gungo wrote:
even Cadian hwt aren’t bad if you take a command squad you can give a hwt reroll hits and wounds of 1, take aim aura for +1 to hit and +1 ap, and ursela gives them 1 str. Making for a decent acurate hwt squad.

I don't like using Special Characters to stack buffs (or in general) as they just seem like a crutch (the amount of Chaos armies that all have Dooby leading them makes me sick). Having said that, I presume everything you just said could apply to Mortar units, yes?

All this moaning about artillery being nerfed raises a question from me: did the artillery tanks' weapons get the Turret Weapon rule, like the Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn's turrets? The Goonhammer review seemed to suggest that it wasn't just the tanks that got that rule on their weapons. If they did, that would mitigate their hit penalties when shooting out of LOS, no?

gungo wrote:
Basilisk is 140pts and does not have the regimental or platoon keywords like FOB… it only has artillery and vehicle keywords…

Basilisks, like all non-auxilia units, have REGIMENTAL.

I don’t see where that +1 to hit is easy for them

+1 to hit from the doctrine. And the default ability is highly overrated IMO. It's an easy ability to quantify because it's a straight dice math buff but I think most armies will want a pair of more specialized options. If you're already taking, say, the ability to move and disembark you have to pick a second trait. And +1 to hit for all of your artillery is an auto-take if you're investing heavily in artillery.

to give it gunners kill on sight for reroll 1 to hit

Or you give max blast shots and have 9 shots vs. the FOB unit's average of 7.

(Speed really doesn’t matter on indirect artillery).

Speed is how you win games. This is why the two best traits are the ability to disembark after moving and +1"/2" movement distance. A Basilisk is faster to get out of trouble, faster to get LOS on a target if necessary, and faster to move up and claim objectives.

Now, is this a decisive advantage? No, that's why I listed it at the end. But when the Basilisk is equal or better at indirect shooting and also has those bonus advantages the choice is pretty clear.

even Cadian hwt aren’t bad if you take a command squad you can give a hwt reroll hits and wounds of 1, take aim aura for +1 to hit and +1 ap, and ursela gives them 1 str. Making for a decent acurate hwt squad.

No, mortar HWS are really bad. You want your buffs on your most effective units, wasting a heavy support slot on a 50 point mortar unit is not an efficient use of those buffs. Mortar HWS are what you take in a 1000 point game when you have 50 points left and can't fit in a real unit, you don't build your plans around them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
All this moaning about artillery being nerfed raises a question from me: did the artillery tanks' weapons get the Turret Weapon rule, like the Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn's turrets? The Goonhammer review seemed to suggest that it wasn't just the tanks that got that rule on their weapons. If they did, that would mitigate their hit penalties when shooting out of LOS, no?

They did not. LoW did get it on their primary weapons though, as did Hydras, Chimeras, and the Hellhound line.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

gungo wrote:
Basilisk is 140pts and does not have the regimental or platoon keywords like FOB… it only has artillery and vehicle keywords…

Basilisks, like all non-auxilia units, have REGIMENTAL.

I don’t see where that +1 to hit is easy for them

+1 to hit from the doctrine. And the default ability is highly overrated IMO. It's an easy ability to quantify because it's a straight dice math buff but I think most armies will want a pair of more specialized options. If you're already taking, say, the ability to move and disembark you have to pick a second trait. And +1 to hit for all of your artillery is an auto-take if you're investing heavily in artillery.

to give it gunners kill on sight for reroll 1 to hit

Or you give max blast shots and have 9 shots vs. the FOB unit's average of 7.

(Speed really doesn’t matter on indirect artillery).

Speed is how you win games. This is why the two best traits are the ability to disembark after moving and +1"/2" movement distance. A Basilisk is faster to get out of trouble, faster to get LOS on a target if necessary, and faster to move up and claim objectives.

Now, is this a decisive advantage? No, that's why I listed it at the end. But when the Basilisk is equal or better at indirect shooting and also has those bonus advantages the choice is pretty clear.

even Cadian hwt aren’t bad if you take a command squad you can give a hwt reroll hits and wounds of 1, take aim aura for +1 to hit and +1 ap, and ursela gives them 1 str. Making for a decent acurate hwt squad.

No, mortar HWS are really bad. You want your buffs on your most effective units, wasting a heavy support slot on a 50 point mortar unit is not an efficient use of those buffs. Mortar HWS are what you take in a 1000 point game when you have 50 points left and can't fit in a real unit, you don't build your plans around them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
All this moaning about artillery being nerfed raises a question from me: did the artillery tanks' weapons get the Turret Weapon rule, like the Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn's turrets? The Goonhammer review seemed to suggest that it wasn't just the tanks that got that rule on their weapons. If they did, that would mitigate their hit penalties when shooting out of LOS, no?

They did not. LoW did get it on their primary weapons though, as did Hydras, Chimeras, and the Hellhound line.

born soldiers is just straight up better it’s not just easy quantifiable it makes basic lasguns into a much bigger threat and greatly improves every ranged weapon efficiency. plus expert bombadiers isn’t an easy way to get +1 to hit either. U literally need a vox caster or sentinel within 12in of a target to get +1 to hit. None of which is easy. Regardless I was posting because the person above you said FOB are bad while bombast field gun is arguably one of our best artilery.

You are comparing the speed on obj secured troops to artillery. I mean I don’t feel the need to even argue why that’s dumb.

You do realize hwt are the ONLY “artillery” that’s core keyword… in other words those aura buffs only work on them not FOB or real artillery (basilisk, manticore). You can’t just put those command squad buffs on other units as the vast majority are NOT core. And I never said to take motar hws, making your lascannon str10, ap-4 reroll hit and wound 1, and +1 to hit w born soldiers makes them super accurate. Heck even beleaguered auto cannon is much better at str8 ap-3 w the above. However I agree it’s likely not worth taking hwt and a command squad just to make them viable but ursela will be throwing out multiple +1 str orders anyway.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

It's good, but not that good. 130 points gets you a pair of guns doing 7 shots average at S8/AP-3/D2 with +1 to hit, a Basilisk gets you 6.5 average shots at S10/AP-3/D2 and has easy access to +1 to hit and/or tank orders. And the Basilisk has way better speed and durability. IMO FOBs may have a role but they're not obviously overpowered.

It's S7 AP-2 which makes it far worse. It's literally just a D6 AP-2 autocannon. Sure, take aim pushes it to AP-3 and gives it a +1 to Hit, but it's still S7.

Jarms48 wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

It's good, but not that good. 130 points gets you a pair of guns doing 7 shots average at S8/AP-3/D2 with +1 to hit, a Basilisk gets you 6.5 average shots at S10/AP-3/D2 and has easy access to +1 to hit and/or tank orders. And the Basilisk has way better speed and durability. IMO FOBs may have a role but they're not obviously overpowered.

It's S7 AP-2 which makes it far worse. It's literally just a D6 AP-2 autocannon. Sure, take aim pushes it to AP-3 and gives it a +1 to Hit, but it's still S7.

ursela creed issuing take aim bumps it to str8… at 65ppm hitting 2 of those in a unit. Makes them comparable to a basilisk which can’t take regimental orders as it doesn’t have the platoon keyword. So 130pts for 2d6 s8 ap-3 2dam with +1 to hit and indirect is really good. Plus ursela creed can issue orders 2 more times… making a great backfield artilery commander issuing orders.

Everyone seems to be thinking that the relic banner: Finial of the Nemrodesh 1st is really strong, but was is the exact wording of it? Because if you ignore all hit modifiers, wouldn't that include the +1 to hit from the order: Take aim!

Agusto wrote:
Everyone seems to be thinking that the relic banner: Finial of the Nemrodesh 1st is really strong, but was is the exact wording of it? Because if you ignore all hit modifiers, wouldn't that include the +1 to hit from the order: Take aim!

It looks strong on the leaks but I need to see the final wording on the relic PLUS does it remove the effect from a normal banner? (Reroll 1 to wound) if it stacks it’s pretty awesome… if it stacks as I hope a command squad with just a banner gives reroll 1 to hit and wound, ignore negative hit penalties, and issues 2 orders. That’s not bad. If it doesn’t stack and it removes all modifiers to hit it sucks..

The other issue I have is opportunity cost…this means you need to pick up a full command squad and commander.. add whatever specials, medic, banner, addons, etc you want and it’s not really cheap. Then take a relic -1cp cost..

I rather just take ursela… same reroll 1 commander aura, +1 str on orders, and a high leadership (9) that with born soldiers is basically going to make most guard units within 6in of her mostly immune to morale. And the ability to use reroll ability 2x…

From what I have read, it is "Ignore hit modifiers", so that must mean + and -, right?

If it doesn't specify negatives then yes + hit, - hit, all the same. Basically same as daemon save then which doesn't care if you are in cover with +1 to save roll spells etc. You still don't get any help.

But of course not having seen actual photo from book can't say. Have only seen somebody quoting rules and those sometimes missing details.

I know GW are bad at rules writinge, but even I am willing to believe they managed to remember to put the phrase "any or all X modifiiers" in.

It sounds like it goes well with a 30 Kasrkin face roll build and if I was listening right to the description of the banner it does even more than just ignore modifiers, was it also ignoing FNPs and phase caps or have I mixed it up with something else?

Yes, it also ignores all wound blockers.

gungo wrote:
ursela creed issuing take aim bumps it to str8… at 65ppm hitting 2 of those in a unit. Makes them comparable to a basilisk which can’t take regimental orders as it doesn’t have the platoon keyword. So 130pts for 2d6 s8 ap-3 2dam with +1 to hit and indirect is really good. Plus ursela creed can issue orders 2 more times… making a great backfield artilery commander issuing orders.

Just wait until Guard lose the balance dataslate nLoS exemption. All Guard artillery will be trash after that.

This is exactly how you ruin a faction. Make it so a full squad of Kasarkin with their flag and Ursula ordering them around is just as deadly if not deadlier to a full squad of plague marines, than a squad of heavy intercessors. This is not balance. HotE needs to die and go away.

G'day mates this is regarding current Tallarn tank order (8th Ed codex):

Scenario: Tank Commander starts turn in engagement range of enemy. Use Tank Order 'Get Around Behind them' to move after shooting.

Question (2 parts): After shooting in combat, big guns never tire, can I then move the 6" which takes me out of engagement range? If so, that means I didn't fall back, and therefore I could also charge?

There doesn't seem to be any FAQ about this. The rules are worded:

"The ordered model can move up to 6" in this phase, either before or after it shoots, as if it were the Movement phase. This does not affect how far the vehicle has moved for the purposes of determining how many times it can fire its turret weapon (as described in the Grinding Advance ability)."

I'm not sure if the key is in the 'as if it were the movement phase' which may mean that yhe 6" counts as a fall back? Or maybe it's just literally you just move the model no questions asked... I can't figured this out.

Thoughts?

gungo wrote:

Agusto wrote:
Everyone seems to be thinking that the relic banner: Finial of the Nemrodesh 1st is really strong, but was is the exact wording of it? Because if you ignore all hit modifiers, wouldn't that include the +1 to hit from the order: Take aim!

It looks strong on the leaks but I need to see the final wording on the relic PLUS does it remove the effect from a normal banner? (Reroll 1 to wound) if it stacks it’s pretty awesome… if it stacks as I hope a command squad with just a banner gives reroll 1 to hit and wound, ignore negative hit penalties, and issues 2 orders. That’s not bad. If it doesn’t stack and it removes all modifiers to hit it sucks..

The other issue I have is opportunity cost…this means you need to pick up a full command squad and commander.. add whatever specials, medic, banner, addons, etc you want and it’s not really cheap. Then take a relic -1cp cost..

I rather just take ursela… same reroll 1 commander aura, +1 str on orders, and a high leadership (9) that with born soldiers is basically going to make most guard units within 6in of her mostly immune to morale. And the ability to use reroll ability 2x…

It's ignore "any or all" modifiers and does not specify any wargear/abilities are lost to get this. Retaining positive modifiers and reroll 1's seems fine. The ignoring wound reducing rules bit is probably the strong part.

A question on sentinels and plasma cannons - new cannon inflicts a mortal to the bearer on a 1 to hit instead of killing the bearer outright. How does this work on wound allocation as you could potentially have a unit of 3 all taking 1 mortal - do they all take 1 wound or is the bearer now classified as the unit not the model? Seems like it could screw up normal wound allocation restrictions.

 Insularum wrote:

A question on sentinels and plasma cannons - new cannon inflicts a mortal to the bearer on a 1 to hit instead of killing the bearer outright. How does this work on wound allocation as you could potentially have a unit of 3 all taking 1 mortal - do they all take 1 wound or is the bearer now classified as the unit not the model? Seems like it could screw up normal wound allocation restrictions.

As has been done on similar units time and time again throughout the edition (either via FAQs or erratas) you consider it as the "squad" suffering a mortal wounds, therefore if you roll a 1 on each cannon the 3 mortals will all go to 1 sentinel.
GW wasn't smart enough to avoid falling into the same pit once more because, well, it's GW, but aside from that you just dump all the mortals from the squadron into one guy.

I was tempted by the Death Strike but reading the 40mm base size for objectives kind of makes what little use that DeathStrike could have been vanish. I think the intent might have been that it cancels objectives but I guess they forgot to consider the base size?