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When CSM codex gets updated, will they have better Plaguemarines and Rubrics than in the deathguard and Thousand Sons codexes?

 catbarf wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
There is only so much than clever tactics can accomplish. If the enemy has tens or hundreds of times the numbers you're just busted. Besides, if you think such methods are such a force multiplier, then certainly it is still waste of time making marines? Just train your guardsmen that way and not they can take on twenty times their numbers of orks!

Seriously?

Operation Gothic Serpent (AKA Black Hawk Down) pitted 160 US Army Rangers and Delta Force operators, with air support, against an estimated 2,000-4,000 Somali militants. That's a ratio of somewhere between 12.5:1 and 25:1. The final casualty count was 19 dead Americans and 1 captured, to 250-500 dead Somalis. There are similar examples from both World Wars of soldiers succeeding against overwhelming odds. Audie Murphy single-handedly held off an entire company of Germans for over an hour. In one incident on the Eastern Front, a German platoon held a frontage of an entire kilometer against a Soviet infantry division.

Training, tactics, and operational conditions count for a lot more than wargamers credit, and it's a classic and all-too-common mistake to focus almost exclusively on technology and equipment. Soft factors are the distinguishing characteristic between a team of special forces operators and a team of grunts, not super-weapons that give the former 5x the offensive firepower.

Hrm, I would argue that in some of those cases cases, particularly Somalia, that equipment and technology played an outsized factor. When you have the resources of a superpower, real time satellite info, air supremacy and fire support, armored vehicles, body armor, etc, it makes it significantly easier for a few to hold against many.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Marine's aren't line troopers, sitting in a trench desperately trying to hold off waves of Orks or trading shots at extended range with the Tau.

GW has basically made marines try to fit every trope and concept under the sun, and we have entire marine subfactions devoted to being exactly that, both loyalist and chaos, with gobs of fluff representations (including the original Dawn of War opening cinematic).

Doohicky wrote:
When CSM codex gets updated, will they have better Plaguemarines and Rubrics than in the deathguard and Thousand Sons codexes?

Depends.
Chaos might get the same 'base codex + supplements' approach as loyalists.

There are a couple reasons not to (like the very restricted arsenals they've allowed TS and DG), but I'd like to see it for consistency's sake.

Voss wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
When CSM codex gets updated, will they have better Plaguemarines and Rubrics than in the deathguard and Thousand Sons codexes?

Depends.
Chaos might get the same 'base codex + supplements' approach as loyalists.

There are a couple reasons not to (like the very restricted arsenals they've allowed TS and DG), but I'd like to see it for consistency's sake.

Yeah, I was thinking the same. That DG and TS have much more restriction than the loyalist marines.
I don't play loyalist so I could be wrong, but I believe all the sub legions have access to all the base units from the SM codex + their own specific units? (I assume SW & DW are slightly different?)

TS and DG only have access to a small amount of CSM units (I would say well under half?)

So on that basis having them done similar to loyalist would be difficult

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, I would argue that in some of those cases cases, particularly Somalia, that equipment and technology played an outsized factor. When you have the resources of a superpower, real time satellite info, air supremacy and fire support, armored vehicles, body armor, etc, it makes it significantly easier for a few to hold against many.

Good point! And how well does 40K model the massive advantages provided by individual-level radio comms, coordination from a nearby TOC, seamless integration of air assets and computerized fire coordination, and satellite reconnaissance? Well, I guess it does model body armor, and vehicles at least exist.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means Intercessors pay just two points for the extra attack and significantly better gun. Tacticals can't even be cheaper meatshields for the gak Special and Heavy Weapon saturation they already had. Soooooo what's really the point in the unit?

Tac Squads can do things OTHER than mow down GEQs and MEQs, that's what they're good for.

One weapon is not "mowing down" anything.

Not sure how you managed to completely flip around what I wrote to end up with a single weapon mowing down anything, to be honest. You DID notice the word "OTHER", right?

I was referring to what a squad of Intercessors does to eg an Infantry Squad - mow them down. That's something they do REALLY well, much better than Tac Squads.
But Tac Squads can take down tanks much easier than Intercessors can, just give them melta weapons.

40k is a badly-designed wargame that refuses to take into account a huge array of military factors, including ones that would be very useful for differentiating the factions in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium World War 2 in space, duh.

2W Grey Knights! Now paying those 20+ppm may finally seem worth it!

It’s says in the community article that updates for each army will come as and when codexes are released. How many releases a year? 3? Of course the SM supplements will come thick and fast.

Weapons are becoming more powerful and unita are getting more wounds, feels counter productive. But it means a codex updated for 9th will be twice as good as a pre 9th codex. Now we will find out which armies are at the bottom of GW pecking order

mrFickle wrote:
How many releases a year? 3?

2018 saw 10 codexes:

Knights, DW, Harlies, DE, Necrons, T'au, DA, Custodes, Thousand Sons, Daemons

In 2017 from August until the end of the year they did 9:

BA, Nids, Eldar, Mechanicus, AM, DG, GK, and CSM

2019 was 4 when you exclude SM and supplements as well as PA, Vigilus, and WD Index updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
Of course the SM supplements will come thick and fast.

The only necessary supplements will be for BA, SW, DA to bring them inline.

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
2W Grey Knights! Now paying those 20+ppm may finally seem worth it!

2W Grey Knights...most likely a year from now, certainly 6 months at a minimum. Doesn't sound so great any more.

Doohicky wrote:

Voss wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
When CSM codex gets updated, will they have better Plaguemarines and Rubrics than in the deathguard and Thousand Sons codexes?

Depends.
Chaos might get the same 'base codex + supplements' approach as loyalists.

There are a couple reasons not to (like the very restricted arsenals they've allowed TS and DG), but I'd like to see it for consistency's sake.

Yeah, I was thinking the same. That DG and TS have much more restriction than the loyalist marines.
I don't play loyalist so I could be wrong, but I believe all the sub legions have access to all the base units from the SM codex + their own specific units? (I assume SW & DW are slightly different?)

Deathwatch has been very different, no idea how they're going to handle it.
Wolfs... have their own version of Tactical/Assault/Devastator squads (in some ways they're more similar to Chaos weapon restrictions)

Black Templars are otherwise the most restricted- 'can't take librarians'

Daedalus, I would actually exclude Chaos Space Marines not Space Marines. They billed CSM as a "second edition" rather than a whole new book even in their initial promo stuff.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
40k is a badly-designed wargame that refuses to take into account a huge array of military factors, including ones that would be very useful for differentiating the factions in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium World War 2 in space, duh.

World War 2 in Space which fails to implement any rules which incentivise WW2 tactics like the four Fs

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
2W Grey Knights! Now paying those 20+ppm may finally seem worth it!

2W Grey Knights...most likely a year from now, certainly 6 months at a minimum. Doesn't sound so great any more.

I feel COVID-19 will still be a thing in the next 6 months, at a minimum. After that, we'll see.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
40k is a badly-designed wargame that refuses to take into account a huge array of military factors, including ones that would be very useful for differentiating the factions in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium World War 2 in space, duh.

World War 2 in Space which fails to implement any rules which incentivise WW2 tactics like the four Fs

So not even that.

40k isn't a war-anything, and instead is just a game with no attempt to be accurate to any sort of anything except existing for the sake of the game itself.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Daedalus, I would actually exclude Chaos Space Marines not Space Marines. They billed CSM as a "second edition" rather than a whole new book even in their initial promo stuff.

Agreed. Csm "2" was not a new codex.

Which made it all the funnier to me when everyone got upset about it.

GW themselves took great pains to make it abundantly clear that it was NOT a new book. It just was a compiled book.

Literally. This statement is in at the bottom of the product info.

Important Note

This is an updated version of Codex: Chaos Space Marines, containing new art, lore and updated rules encompassing new content from Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze, including Prayers to the Dark Gods, updated units, and more. If you already own a copy of Chaos Space Marines and Vigilus Ablaze, you'll find this book a handy compilation. However, you do not need a copy of the original codex or Vigilus Ablaze to use this product!

GW can pump out codexes pretty fast these days, as we saw early on in 8th edition when there was a new book like every 2-3 weeks.

Still there are enough armies that it is going to take time, around a year and a half if we look at how long 8th took.

That is a long time where armies are going to be complete garbage if these Marine buffs are anything to go by.
It looks bigger then 8th's index to codex power creep and its going to make a lot of people very salty, rightfully so.

You can't do this to people every 3 years and not expect them to tell you to feth off and spend their money somewhere else.

well this news is certainly a hefty nail in the coffin..

 Argive wrote:
well this news is certainly a hefty nail in the coffin..

Also great for those that get dexes later down the Line isn't it...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Argive wrote:
well this news is certainly a hefty nail in the coffin..

Also great for those that get dexes later down the Line isn't it...

Ohh yeha the NPCs will be pleased eventualy im sure.

 Argive wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Argive wrote:
well this news is certainly a hefty nail in the coffin..

Also great for those that get dexes later down the Line isn't it...

Ohh yeha the NPCs will be pleased eventualy im sure.

I mean i'd be salty as a marines aswell, all those rules to be rebought how Long? And not one multipose and Equipment hq leutnant?

Gsc and orkz allready probably aclimated to their late position , because that worked well for them... /S.

The average age of cwe models challanges my own.

Drukhari" dude , where's my hq section gone?!?" The dex.

Chaos " the cardhouse effect stacker" marine, suffering from obliterators Syndrome .

But all is fine, no need to not spread dexes ...

So I had figured this news would make old marine players happy.

I thought it might end some of the GW wants to squat oldmarines in favour of primaris.

But of course, if you're going to see somebody complaining about the doubling in survivability for a mere 20% increase, your going to see it on dakka.

Serious question: what actually would make you happy?

Now I'm not a total white knight either- mistakes that have been made on warcom before make me take everything with a grain of salt. But I believe they weren't just talking about weapons when they said it will go global once the marine dex drops.

And it makes sense, because they want everyone on the app. So if you've got the app, once the dex drops, every faction's statlines and weapon profiles could be updated over night.

Like I said, grain of salt- warcom has been inaccurate before.

That's simply not what it says. It very clearly says that the only things that will be updated with the Space Marine and Necron codexes is weapons that appear both in those codexes and in other codexes. It explicitly says that all other changes will come only when the codex for that specific faction is released.

Overlapping weapons:

Now, we know that LOTS of armies use these weapons, whether supplied by the Tech-Adepts of Mars or perhaps even “acquired” through less Imperium-friendly means to turn on their former masters. In any case, when Codex: Space Marines arrives in October, every other unit that utilises the same wargear – regardless of Faction – will get their weapon profiles upgraded accordingly.

Other stuff:

Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around.

And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.

PenitentJake wrote:
So I had figured this news would make old marine players happy.

I thought it might end some of the GW wants to squat oldmarines in favour of primaris.

But of course, if you're going to see somebody complaining about the doubling in survivability for a mere 20% increase, your going to see it on dakka.

Serious question: what actually would make you happy?

My primary army is classic marines. The change is great when compared to Primaris. I also have a Chaos army. The 2W change is great.

However.

I also have Tyranid, Eldar, and now some Necron models (who were waiting for the codex before I really jumped in). As a Xenos player I find the 2W change to be kinda infuriating. I like basic troops in my armies. I've got a lot of Termagants and Hormagaunts. I've got a lot of Eldar Guardians and such, too. 2W takes a big dump on a lot of those models. This would be a lot easier if I knew what the solution was supposed to be, but I've been playing since 2nd edition and have been quite comfortable with 1W marines for a long time. I don't like that some of my favorite Xenos models seem to continue getting worse and worse in comparison to marines over the years.

Primaris were already skewing infantry engagements, but I could be comfortable in the idea that my Classics felt reasonable in comparison to their various opposing troops. But instead of reigning in the Primaris, GW has instead buffed up the normal guys. So now a bunch of my non-marine collection is kinda going "wtf?".

yukishiro1 wrote:
That's simply not what it says. It very clearly says that the only things that will be updated with the Space Marine and Necron codexes is weapons that appear both in those codexes and in other codexes. It explicitly says that all other changes will come only when the codex for that specific faction is released.

Overlapping weapons:

Now, we know that LOTS of armies use these weapons, whether supplied by the Tech-Adepts of Mars or perhaps even “acquired” through less Imperium-friendly means to turn on their former masters. In any case, when Codex: Space Marines arrives in October, every other unit that utilises the same wargear – regardless of Faction – will get their weapon profiles upgraded accordingly.

Other stuff:

Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around.

And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.

I stand corrected.

It's an understandable mistake, because releasing the changes all together would make actual sense, and what GW is doing literally makes no sense at all.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's an understandable mistake, because releasing the changes all together would make actual sense, and what GW is doing literally makes no sense at all.

It makes Sense buissness wise to spread earnings over all Quartals.

SemperMortis wrote:
In no battle field situation should a Space Marine lose to an Ork boy if we are going by fluff alone.

Do you know who was an ork boy? Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka. Along with basically every boss and nob. Sometimes upsets happen.