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2020/08/18 18:21:58
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
I mean, you could always look at the Slaanesh Daemons book from AOS. It has exactly the same model line as 40k Slaanesh Daemons (except for one unit which is just male seekers instead of female seekers) and yet manages to be diverse and competitive - and for a time, overpowered. (perhaps we shouldn't copy that part )
2020/08/18 18:22:47
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
NinthMusketeer wrote:AoS does it well. The 40k equivalent would be a codex each for DG/DoN, TS/DoT, WE/DoK, and EC/DoS, then the regular codex for CSM with any marked units able to be taken by the god-specific codex.
This would kick ass
2020/08/18 18:32:01
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
VladimirHerzog wrote: don't you only lose the loci? which is the same as marines losing their chapter tactic bonuses?
Yes, you do only lose the loci - which is literally the only special rules available to a Daemons army.
So you go from Marines, who lose Chapter Tactics but keep a whole host of rules, to Daemons, who lose every single rule period if they bring another god. The only difference between Slaanesh and Tzeench in the same detachment and a completely unbound army is that you get to keep some CP (but you only have like 4 stratagems so whatever).
Let me put it this way:
Bringing Tzeench and Slaanesh in the same detachment has more in common with bringing Eldar and Tyranids in the same detachment than with bringing Ultramarines and Blood Angels in the same detachment.
Yeah, thats what i thought, i just wanted to make sure i wasn't playing something wrong with my Tzeentch/Nurgle detachment.
For some reason i had in mind that the god "bonuses" were a global thing (+1 invuln to tzeentch, always fight first for slaanesh, disgustingly resilient and whatever khorne gets) but theyre just abilities on the datasheets.
As dudeface said : the whole codex is a mess that needs a rewrite,
Demons should be more customizable than space marines IMO
Oddly I'd rather double down on the existing design choice and not have a daemons codex. They already print the relevant gods daemons in the relevant chaos legion book, just push out emps children and world eaters, put daemons rules in each, then expand undivided daemons slightly and leave those in generic chaos space marines.
Gives the legion codecies more merit for existing, stops awkward reprinting of rules for "summoning purposes" and gives fluffy mono god armies easy access. Arguably multi God daemon armies are no worse off than they are now, maybe the hq equivalent for the undivided daemons could have a rule that facilitated mixed detachments.
Hmm thats an interesting approach.
So basically you'd have Codex: Deathguard/ThousandSons/EmpChildren/worldEater with the demons included in them?
I'm not so thrilled about that honestly. Demons and CSM are very different armies. If anything, the demon entries shouldnt be present in the CSM books. I've seen so many new players show up with demons in their CSM lists and not understand that they can't actually use them to fill slots in teir army.
This is my point, remove that barrier, make it so you can have a cohesive tzeentch or w/e list with mortal, posthuman and daemon units. I'm more fed up of the answer to any chaos problem being "ally in x from y", when each book should be able to stand on its own merits.
2020/08/18 18:39:44
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
VladimirHerzog wrote: don't you only lose the loci? which is the same as marines losing their chapter tactic bonuses?
Yes, you do only lose the loci - which is literally the only special rules available to a Daemons army.
So you go from Marines, who lose Chapter Tactics but keep a whole host of rules, to Daemons, who lose every single rule period if they bring another god. The only difference between Slaanesh and Tzeench in the same detachment and a completely unbound army is that you get to keep some CP (but you only have like 4 stratagems so whatever).
Let me put it this way:
Bringing Tzeench and Slaanesh in the same detachment has more in common with bringing Eldar and Tyranids in the same detachment than with bringing Ultramarines and Blood Angels in the same detachment.
Yeah, thats what i thought, i just wanted to make sure i wasn't playing something wrong with my Tzeentch/Nurgle detachment.
For some reason i had in mind that the god "bonuses" were a global thing (+1 invuln to tzeentch, always fight first for slaanesh, disgustingly resilient and whatever khorne gets) but theyre just abilities on the datasheets.
As dudeface said : the whole codex is a mess that needs a rewrite,
Demons should be more customizable than space marines IMO
Oddly I'd rather double down on the existing design choice and not have a daemons codex. They already print the relevant gods daemons in the relevant chaos legion book, just push out emps children and world eaters, put daemons rules in each, then expand undivided daemons slightly and leave those in generic chaos space marines.
Gives the legion codecies more merit for existing, stops awkward reprinting of rules for "summoning purposes" and gives fluffy mono god armies easy access. Arguably multi God daemon armies are no worse off than they are now, maybe the hq equivalent for the undivided daemons could have a rule that facilitated mixed detachments.
Hmm thats an interesting approach.
So basically you'd have Codex: Deathguard/ThousandSons/EmpChildren/worldEater with the demons included in them?
I'm not so thrilled about that honestly. Demons and CSM are very different armies. If anything, the demon entries shouldnt be present in the CSM books. I've seen so many new players show up with demons in their CSM lists and not understand that they can't actually use them to fill slots in teir army.
This is my point, remove that barrier, make it so you can have a cohesive tzeentch or w/e list with mortal, posthuman and daemon units. I'm more fed up of the answer to any chaos problem being "ally in x from y", when each book should be able to stand on its own merits.
fair enough, it doesnt really change much when i think of it. it would be an elegant fix to chaos's problems (soup.faction) right now. Actually yeah, i'm on board with 40k inspiring itself from AoS for its chaos codexes.
Basic CSM Thousand sons / Tzeentch
Deathguard / Nurgle
World Eaters / Khorne
Emperor's children / Slaanesh
Chaos Knights
and i guess belakor would be an entry in the basic CSM codex?
That would fix Tzeentch DPs being worse than Thousand sons DPs.
That would fix the Detachment tax for Chaos.
2020/08/18 18:40:41
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
So basically you'd have Codex: Deathguard/ThousandSons/EmpChildren/worldEater with the demons included in them?
I'm not so thrilled about that honestly. Demons and CSM are very different armies. If anything, the demon entries shouldnt be present in the CSM books. I've seen so many new players show up with demons in their CSM lists and not understand that they can't actually use them to fill slots in teir army.
Sort of? The problem is that there's already a lot more synergy between, say, Tzeentch CSM and Tzeentch Daemons than there is between Tzeentch Daemons and Nurgle Daemons or Tzeentch CSM and Khorne CSM, because of the Daemon Engine/Possessed support that works on the Daemons.
If you hate marine players so much. Why don't you just play tau against them?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/18 19:14:36
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Xenomancers wrote: If you hate marine players so much. Why don't you just play tau against them?
Multiple possible reasons.
I don't own the army.
The playstyle of the army doesnt interest me.
I want to play what i already enjoy playing.
I don't even hate marines, i've changed my stance on that ever since going 100% casual with warhammer
2020/08/18 19:22:30
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
NinthMusketeer wrote:AoS does it well. The 40k equivalent would be a codex each for DG/DoN, TS/DoT, WE/DoK, and EC/DoS, then the regular codex for CSM with any marked units able to be taken by the god-specific codex.
This would kick ass
Yeah, I would love this. I would ESPECIALLY love if my lords of change, basically demi-gods of psychic might, had anywhere near the diversity of psychic power options of my Thousand Sons Daemon Princes, who have their choice of 18 powers + 1 bonus power for each of 9 cults.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/08/18 19:35:04
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Xenomancers wrote: If you hate marine players so much. Why don't you just play tau against them?
Multiple possible reasons.
I don't own the army.
The playstyle of the army doesnt interest me.
I want to play what i already enjoy playing.
I don't even hate marines, i've changed my stance on that ever since going 100% casual with warhammer
I am with you. I am also going casual. I can't/ have no desire to keep up with a meta changing every month. With entire armies becoming invalid on a monthly basis and new armies becoming the new hotness. Tired of it.
I am assuming these people are coming from a competitive prospective with all the marine hate...Unless someone is playing a TFG new hotness chapter (Pre nerf Ironahnds/IF)(9th edd salis) marines aren't even that bad anyways and if they are doing that. Just ask them to play their raven gaurd painted marines as ravengaurd and not spam new undercosted eradicators with salamdanders rules...jezz. It's the same nonsense with people playing aliotoc flyers with their siamhan army...This game requires an agreement between players for both players to have fun. If you aren't having talks with your mates before games work about power level. It is going to be a bad experience regardless of armies selected. My suggestion to just play tau is aimed at the people who chase meta.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/18 20:22:06
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
I am with you. I am also going casual. I can't/ have no desire to keep up with a meta changing every month. With entire armies becoming invalid on a monthly basis and new armies becoming the new hotness. Tired of it.
I am assuming these people are coming from a competitive prospective with all the marine hate...Unless someone is playing a TFG new hotness chapter (Pre nerf Ironahnds/IF)(9th edd salis) marines aren't even that bad anyways and if they are doing that. Just ask them to play their raven gaurd painted marines as ravengaurd and not spam new undercosted eradicators with salamdanders rules...jezz. It's the same nonsense with people playing aliotoc flyers with their siamhan army...This game requires an agreement between players for both players to have fun. If you aren't having talks with your mates before games work about power level. It is going to be a bad experience regardless of armies selected. My suggestion to just play tau is aimed at the people who chase meta.
I definitely agree with this sentiment.
I think the hard thing is that Space Marines are so overtuned that even casual lists can curb stomp -- So many full re-rolls removes variance from one side, frankly -- but if you aren't talking about how hardcore to go before a game with friends, you're doing it wrong.
Some people wanna practice for a tournament. For the love of god let me know before I play you, then I can prepare. The fun factor of the game goes up when people are both trying to play the appropriate game.
2020/08/18 20:34:48
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Xenomancers wrote: If you hate marine players so much. Why don't you just play tau against them?
Multiple possible reasons.
I don't own the army.
The playstyle of the army doesnt interest me.
I want to play what i already enjoy playing.
I don't even hate marines, i've changed my stance on that ever since going 100% casual with warhammer
I am with you. I am also going casual. I can't/ have no desire to keep up with a meta changing every month. With entire armies becoming invalid on a monthly basis and new armies becoming the new hotness. Tired of it.
I am assuming these people are coming from a competitive prospective with all the marine hate...Unless someone is playing a TFG new hotness chapter (Pre nerf Ironahnds/IF)(9th edd salis) marines aren't even that bad anyways and if they are doing that. Just ask them to play their raven gaurd painted marines as ravengaurd and not spam new undercosted eradicators with salamdanders rules...jezz. It's the same nonsense with people playing aliotoc flyers with their siamhan army...This game requires an agreement between players for both players to have fun. If you aren't having talks with your mates before games work about power level. It is going to be a bad experience regardless of armies selected. My suggestion to just play tau is aimed at the people who chase meta.
Welcome to the Light Side.
The Dark Side might offer cookies, but you'll have more fun over here.
2020/08/18 20:37:09
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
I remember that at the beginning of 8th edition after the first set of codex comes along, everything was about castellan knights behind masses of guardsmen and bright lances and dark reapers spam in innari lists and everybody hates it because all the meta chasers build up they cheese armies around this 2 concepts.
It wasn't till the end of 8 the edition when the space marines come out that the meta chasers didn't switch back to marines, especially IH and Raven guard. Before everybody complained that was almost impossible to fight against an iconic 40k army like the space marines because they used to be garbage before they got their codex.
Are space marines the problem? or the meta chasers spamming the one or 2 best armies in the game in every moment?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 21:06:22
2020/08/18 21:35:24
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
In a casual context, it was much easier to say "Hey knight player, don't take guard" or "hey guard player, don't take the knight" for games than it is to turn to a SM player and say "hey don't take your whole army"
2020/08/19 11:29:57
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Well, I will actually play my old-school Marines when they get 2W's.
Razorbacks are what I like and will be playable again.
I'm not really font of Primaris Marines and their related models (tanks).
I'm toying to sell the Primaris stuff asap.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I will actually play my old-school Marines when they get 2W's.
Razorbacks are what I like and will be playable again.
I'm not really font of Primaris Marines and their related models (tanks).
I'm toying to sell the Primaris stuff asap.
I'd hang onto it until we see what the new codex is gonna be like before selling anything.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/08/19 11:38:17
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I will actually play my old-school Marines when they get 2W's.
Razorbacks are what I like and will be playable again.
I'm not really font of Primaris Marines and their related models (tanks).
I'm toying to sell the Primaris stuff asap.
I'd hang onto it until we see what the new codex is gonna be like before selling anything.
Seconded.
Nevertheless, my intention is to sell Primaris at the earliest convenience.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Unit1126PLL wrote: In a casual context, it was much easier to say "Hey knight player, don't take guard" or "hey guard player, don't take the knight" for games than it is to turn to a SM player and say "hey don't take your whole army"
"Hey marine player, can you not upgrade your captain to a chapter master?" fixes a part of the problem with marines. I plan on making myself a patrol of steel confessors to go with my admech and i plan on playing a reanimated (admech style) chapter master Avonis, I won't be giving him full rerolls to represent his weakened state from being in a tank. I doubt that the army is gonna be overbearing.
Not everything marines have is OP. They have many strong choices but its possible to build a casual list easily.
2020/08/19 13:03:33
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Unit1126PLL wrote: In a casual context, it was much easier to say "Hey knight player, don't take guard" or "hey guard player, don't take the knight" for games than it is to turn to a SM player and say "hey don't take your whole army"
"Hey marine player, can you not upgrade your captain to a chapter master?" fixes a part of the problem with marines. I plan on making myself a patrol of steel confessors to go with my admech and i plan on playing a reanimated (admech style) chapter master Avonis, I won't be giving him full rerolls to represent his weakened state from being in a tank. I doubt that the army is gonna be overbearing.
Not everything marines have is OP. They have many strong choices but its possible to build a casual list easily.
I prefer to let them spend the 2CP and then as soon as I get anything within 18 say "Vox Scream, he's now a paperweight".
2020/08/19 14:42:49
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Unit1126PLL wrote: In a casual context, it was much easier to say "Hey knight player, don't take guard" or "hey guard player, don't take the knight" for games than it is to turn to a SM player and say "hey don't take your whole army"
"Hey marine player, can you not upgrade your captain to a chapter master?" fixes a part of the problem with marines. I plan on making myself a patrol of steel confessors to go with my admech and i plan on playing a reanimated (admech style) chapter master Avonis, I won't be giving him full rerolls to represent his weakened state from being in a tank. I doubt that the army is gonna be overbearing.
Not everything marines have is OP. They have many strong choices but its possible to build a casual list easily.
I prefer to let them spend the 2CP and then as soon as I get anything within 18 say "Vox Scream, he's now a paperweight".
Well i only ask when im not playing night lords, lol.
2020/08/19 15:07:44
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Unit1126PLL wrote: In a casual context, it was much easier to say "Hey knight player, don't take guard" or "hey guard player, don't take the knight" for games than it is to turn to a SM player and say "hey don't take your whole army"
"Hey marine player, can you not upgrade your captain to a chapter master?" fixes a part of the problem with marines. I plan on making myself a patrol of steel confessors to go with my admech and i plan on playing a reanimated (admech style) chapter master Avonis, I won't be giving him full rerolls to represent his weakened state from being in a tank. I doubt that the army is gonna be overbearing.
Not everything marines have is OP. They have many strong choices but its possible to build a casual list easily.
I prefer to let them spend the 2CP and then as soon as I get anything within 18 say "Vox Scream, he's now a paperweight".
Well i only ask when im not playing night lords, lol.
That's not an issue for me since my other army got squatted in 9th. It's In Midnight Clad or nothing for me.
2020/08/19 18:29:52
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Also SM are far more unbalanced for casual gaming than competitive anyway lol.
how so? at least in a casual environment you can have a discussion before the game to iron out any (perceived) issues. Now go try that in a tourney/feth you game environment.
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: In a casual context, it was much easier to say "Hey knight player, don't take guard" or "hey guard player, don't take the knight" for games than it is to turn to a SM player and say "hey don't take your whole army"
"Hey marine player, can you not upgrade your captain to a chapter master?" fixes a part of the problem with marines. I plan on making myself a patrol of steel confessors to go with my admech and i plan on playing a reanimated (admech style) chapter master Avonis, I won't be giving him full rerolls to represent his weakened state from being in a tank. I doubt that the army is gonna be overbearing.
Not everything marines have is OP. They have many strong choices but its possible to build a casual list easily.
I've never upgraded anyone to chapter master, Tu'shan doesnt have a model so I'd feel weird turning Adrax into one for a game, sounds lame.
2020/08/19 18:44:43
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Also SM are far more unbalanced for casual gaming than competitive anyway lol.
I think this confirms it. You are officially the most unlikable poster on dakka. You win the award.
What kind of ass clown goes around telling people "you aren't competitive" in a game of toy soldiers? You hate marines...we get it - you don't need to keep commenting on it. We will automatically assume you hate marines from here on out? K?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/19 19:24:36
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
I had no desire to play marines until the supplements came out, because it was the first time that they seemed interesting to play with the way that the doctrines work.
2020/08/20 00:43:02
Subject: I hate that so many wants to play space marines
Also SM are far more unbalanced for casual gaming than competitive anyway lol.
I think this confirms it. You are officially the most unlikable poster on dakka. You win the award.
What kind of ass clown goes around telling people "you aren't competitive" in a game of toy soldiers? You hate marines...we get it - you don't need to keep commenting on it. We will automatically assume you hate marines from here on out? K?
I mean, you also said Stompas and Squig buggies were secretly op and competitive.
)
