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The pathogens are just too expensive. Having the chance to do a single MW on a 6 attack model isn’t really that great due to our limited attacks. Though may be worthy it on scything attacks.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Plague Marines are still competitive, i think a lot of the people being negative towards them is in response to people loading them for bear and spending upwards of 250pts on a squad based on their explosive damage and carry over wounds from cleaver and other big brain concepts.
I've found MSU PMs to be great just to let you be more places at once, important in a slow grinding army. I tend to take a flail and possibly a blight launcher in each squad, the rest are fine with bolters. 115pts for a unit with obsec, that's pretty tough, you don't mind advancing if you need it to get somewhere because you're not losing much from not shooting and even when whittled down to the final man can still do some work with the flail if you need him to charge an objective camper.

Agree. Special wargears on PMs cost 10pts each, which is more expensive than 9th average level. Many codices have similar options like "pay 10pts to buy 1 bs3+ plasmagun", do they pay the 10pts to fill this slot? Usually they don't. Most tournament list don't.

Blight launcher is so good, i would purchase it even it cost 10pts instead of 5pts. But other upgrades…the more I purchased, I felt the more value I lost.

I wish we could still double blight launched in a 5man...

I wish we could still have 5 meltas in blightlord squad.

I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.

turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.

broxus wrote:
The pathogens are just too expensive. Having the chance to do a single MW on a 6 attack model isn’t really that great due to our limited attacks. Though may be worthy it on scything attacks.

I only really consider them if I've not hit 2k. It's pretty common to have the points left over though so I don't think they're crazy expensive.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.

turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.

It sounds like the terrain you play with is badly setup or too open. As a rule of thumb, most of both armies should be able to set up behind obscuring terrain on turn 1. Let's say turn 1, he starts first, all of your terminator units are definitely behind obscuring terrain, if not most of your army. He will not even get a shot at your terminators. At best, he could pick off a few models in one or two of your exposed units (spawn, a unit of PM maybe, etc). He will kill zero terminators. Based on what you mentioned in his list, he has zero out of line shooting. So, whatever is behind obscuring is literally immune to being shot at. Since his shooting is so devastating he can kill your deathshrouds in one turn. Put them in reserve. Now he has to worry about screening, if not the deathshrouds will come in, flame a unit, and maybe charge another.

Your turn, so he has exposed many units trying to get an angle to shoot you but didn't kill any of your terminators. I assume you had one or two PBCs. Now your PBCs can start shooting their entropy cannons at his redemptors. Entropy cannons are especially good against these things. You could kill a redemptor with good damage rolls with just 3 shots that make it through, and 4 shots will that make it through will definitely do it. Even if you don't kill it in one turn with your entropy cannons, a degraded redemptor is a lot less scary. At its lowest profile, it is shooting at 5+ BS. Good luck hitting much with that, especially if its shooting at something with miasma of pestilence giving it a -1 to hit to make it hit on 6s now.

Access how much shooting he has with the plan to weaken one flank's shooting because you can use obscuring terrain to hide from the other flank. (Again, if your table is totally open, you are not laying out or playing terrain correctly). So, let's say your PBC shooting manage to take out one Redemptor on one flank, and your blight launchers and what not take out some of his more dangerous shooting too. But move your blightlords from obscuring to obscuring, or at least keep them behind a -1 to hit forest, or have them end in terrain giving them a +1 cover save. A 1+ save is not easy to crack. Obscuring is the best, so if you can move them from behind one obscuring cover to another, thats even better. Remember, if one redemptor on one flank is down, you should be able to keep yourself obscured from another redemptor if its all the way on another flank.

In any case, he has a choice now. You have exposed some units to him (especially your PBCs). and you have deep striking deathshrouds coming down. Does he bubble against your deep strike? Does he focus on trying to kill your PBCs? Does he focus on trying to get a shot at and killing your terminators on the board. He is unlikely to be able to do alll 3 things. Especially if there even IS obscuring terrain on the table you play.

So, it is now his turn 2. You have units advancing up a flank which are not as shooty because it is missing a redemptor. You have deathshroud waiting to deep strike in. And you have maybe one other terminator unit behind obscuring. or at least in cover, and its still a major threat. How is he going to kill a whole bunch of terminators plus ten PM plus other stuff in that one turn?

Not saying at this point the game is yours. It isn't. But its game on, and instead of being down half your army, you have options, he has hard decisions, and there is much to play at this point. bad dice rolls will of course still play a part, but for all you know, they could be in your favour too. Maybe you will have a game where 2 shots from a PBC kills a redemptor. And your 2 PBCs kill 2 Redemptors the minute they poke their heads out. One 9 inch charge made with your deathshrouds if he didn't screen his redemptors properly = a dead redemptor. Or equally, one good 9 inch charge roll by deathshrouds into a big squad of plasma hellblastors or inceptors is lights out for those hellblastors. His army doesn't sound like it has throwaway units. He literally has nothing to bubble up against incoming deep strike. You will definitely get to charge something be it inceptors, hellblastors or a redemptor the turn you come in from deep strike.

I really suggest you take a hard look at how terrain is set up in your table. Again as I said, as a rule of thumb, 80 to 90% of your army should be able to start the game behind obscuring terrain unless you are playing a hoard army. A DG army doesn't have such a high model count outside of poxwalkers. If you already put one or two units of deathshrouds in deep strike, you have even more space to arrange and hide the rest of your army. And there should be obscuring terrain on your tabletop. In fact, if your opponent is so strong, ask him to give you a handicap, so set up the table with extremely dense obscuring terrain. Like literally pack the table with tons of obscuring ruins with lots of walls with no windows. It would be literally impossible for him to get a bead on and kill so many units, especially on one turn 1. Your infantry army will be able to freely move up through the ruins, while staying behind or within cover. This kind of terrain would make it extremely hard for a shooting army to do well.


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broxus wrote:
The pathogens are just too expensive. Having the chance to do a single MW on a 6 attack model isn’t really that great due to our limited attacks. Though may be worthy it on scything attacks.

The 10 point one (viscous death) that lets you reroll the number of shots is good on a Foul Blightspawn. Str 8 flamer with reroll number shots is great for 10 points.

Virulent fever (the one you mentioned that does mortal wounds on a 6) is a hefty 20 points. But if you put it on a deathshroud champion, and support it with a Biologus putrifier who has arch-contaminator. It becomes extremely deadly. have your Biologus cast foul infusion on that deathshroud unit. Foul Infusion does exactly the same thing as Virulent fever (mortal wounds on a 6). So, now the whole unit can reroll wounds, and 6s do mortal wounds. In addition, the champion can reroll wounds, and 6s do 2 mortal wounds each! You can even purposely reroll all of your non 6s to wound even if they wound normally just t o fish for more mortal wounds. you can totally obliterate something even if it had a high invul save. Your champion now has 10 attacks with rerolls to wound and 6s doing 2 mortal wounds. The rest of your squad has 8 attacks per model again rerolling to wound, and 6s doing 1 MW.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.

turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.

The above poster is correct in his analysis. I’d also add that you’re opponent is bringing a skew list that is effective against deathguard (and possibly dark angles) but absolutely sucks against all other meta armies. Sisters, quins, Slaanesh demons, chaos soup, and meta necrons would have a field day with this list, and all are common at tournaments. So if he keeps bringing this gak against you and you continue to struggle , I’d recommend 3x plague burst crawlers and forgeworld dreads against him Or just bring chaos soup yourself.


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 tokugawa wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Plague Marines are still competitive, i think a lot of the people being negative towards them is in response to people loading them for bear and spending upwards of 250pts on a squad based on their explosive damage and carry over wounds from cleaver and other big brain concepts.
I've found MSU PMs to be great just to let you be more places at once, important in a slow grinding army. I tend to take a flail and possibly a blight launcher in each squad, the rest are fine with bolters. 115pts for a unit with obsec, that's pretty tough, you don't mind advancing if you need it to get somewhere because you're not losing much from not shooting and even when whittled down to the final man can still do some work with the flail if you need him to charge an objective camper.

Agree. Special wargears on PMs cost 10pts each, which is more expensive than 9th average level. Many codices have similar options like "pay 10pts to buy 1 bs3+ plasmagun", do they pay the 10pts to fill this slot? Usually they don't. Most tournament list don't.

Blight launcher is so good, i would purchase it even it cost 10pts instead of 5pts. But other upgrades…the more I purchased, I felt the more value I lost.

MSU plague marines are certainly powerful, but my problem with them is that I just think poxwalkers are better. I’m now convinced poxwalkers are a top 3 unit in the dex as 20 man bricks are just so effective. Everyone is bringing low rate, high damage weapons to deal with the rest of our army and dark angles, and if not that then D1 weapons with AP-1 or -2 is the next choice. Both of these are punished by walkers, and I’ve found that them regaining lost models from both killing stuff and the dead walk again stratagem to be extremely powerful. Throw in mortal wounds and potential re-roll to hits and just don’t see why you’d want PM over walkers.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.

turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.

What type of Redemptors is he bringing because the plasma doesn't seem at all efficient against DG? I thought generally people ran them with plasma so is he tailoring his list against you with the gatling? Either way, I think a Redemptor will maybe kill a single terminator in shooting, a unit of 10 helblasters will kill another couple terminators. I'm not sure how you are losing so many models so early on.

I'd second the terrain suggestion too. We've been finding recently that we actively don't want to go first because with the more elite, less vehicle based armies and greater coverage of terrain, taking the first turn means you barely kill a single model.


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Salt donkey wrote:


MSU plague marines are certainly powerful, but my problem with them is that I just think poxwalkers are better. I’m now convinced poxwalkers are a top 3 unit in the dex as 20 man bricks are just so effective. Everyone is bringing low rate, high damage weapons to deal with the rest of our army and dark angles, and if not that then D1 weapons with AP-1 or -2 is the next choice. Both of these are punished by walkers, and I’ve found that them regaining lost models from both killing stuff and the dead walk again stratagem to be extremely powerful. Throw in mortal wounds and potential re-roll to hits and just don’t see why you’d want PM over walkers.

Poxwalkers are probably better, but you can only use the mortal wounds strat and raise the dead on one unit per turn. I've found two big units to be kind of the sweet spot if you can stagger one unit charging per turn and dropping the strat, especially if i am doing the action with the other if i take the secondary.

Hmmm, with different lists in mind. I was thinking of what would make a fairly nasty melee "group" that would charge up one flank. Kind of like the hammer and Anvil concept. Because DG strength is in their melee.

I toyed with deathshrouds as part of the group and these really are good. But they are also hideously expensive in points and they have the option to deep strike in anyway. And its a lot of points to add stuff like Noxious blightbringers and other support vireons to this.

With DP now able to be added alongside Lords. I was thinking about this. A slower moving terminator flank headed up by a Lord going up one flank (the Anvil) or the center, and a hard hitting melee focused flank going up the other side (hammer). And this hammer flank will be headed up by the DP.

So, what do you all think about a Hammer flank made up of 2x3 chaos spawn, a 10 man squad of possessed and 1 DP. Everything moves at least 7 inches. And first turn, we can put cloud of flies onto the big possessed unit to prevent them from being shot at. Force the opponent to get through the more expendable chaos spawn (which will be grandfathered for extra resilience). 10 possessed and 1 DP and whatever left of the chaos spawn is going to hit like a ton of bricks in combat.

If they clear the midboard objective, a slower moving poxwalker unit can move up and hold that center objective while this flank proceeds to press on towards the opponent's deployment zone.

I haven't run possessed yet, partly because I don't have any and partly because, tactically i didn't see what they offer over a mower drone. (both quick melee only threats,9w T7 vs 10w T5, 20 1D attacks vs 12 2D atttacks).

As you say, now winged DPs are a little more viable then thinking about a chaperone unit possessed suddenly seem a little more interesting with a way of giving them character support.

In 8th I occasionally used to run a DP up the flank with a helbrute and a drone or two. With <core> being a thing and helbrutes becoming only 6" move then maybe running possessed has legs.

Using cloud of flies on a big unit of possessed seems like an interesting idea and far cheaper in CP than trying to protect your Deathshroud. I'd probably like to keep a BioP with them too. Around 650pts to run up one side of the board seems like a reasonable option...

possesed are core and bubotic astartes so they can get some buffs, drone cant.

 blackmage wrote:
possesed are core and bubotic astartes so they can get some buffs, drone cant.

Sure, but my point was, without a DP they probably wouldn't be gaining much from being core as they would be outside of my castle taking advantage of their higher movement speed

Unless I'm mistaken Possessed are M7". I guess that will add up on say a 5" LOC, but I wouldn't call them fast?

It does make a difference, and with a DP having 8" move means they compliment quite nicely. I'm generally advancing my LOC and deathshroud etc first turn anyway.
That extra 2" can massively increase the odd of making what would be a long punt charge. And generally if you get lucky with a hail mary charge, you're probably unlikely to also be fortunate to get your support characters in too.
I find the 5" move terminator blob are often better off keeping their shape and staying in the various overlapping auras, even if that means being charged rather than charging themselves (FBS is invaluable here).

I would likely only run DP without wings if I am trying this. Wings cost too much for just 2 inch more movement. So the DP is also only 8 inch Movement. So, it fits possessed well. Spawn are also 7 inch movement. So, the whole group moves along quite closely very nicely. Since nothing has any ranged weapons worth noting, the whole group can advance freely without worrying it will mess up any shooting. So that's 7 or 8 inches plus a d6 advance. That sounds pretty decent. And don't forget, they go straight through ruins and benefit from cover within ruins too. So, they can get up the board decent enough.

In truth, i suspect mower drones will do what i would want a possessed and DP flank to do better anyway


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Eldenfirefly wrote:
I would likely only run DP without wings if I am trying this. Wings cost too much for just 2 inch more movement. So the DP is also only 8 inch Movement. So, it fits possessed well. Spawn are also 7 inch movement. So, the whole group moves along quite closely very nicely.

with the faq on inexorable advance the wings are now more valuable but i agree still overcosted. To be honest, i think even without wings DP is not durable enough for its cost, i'm only really considering how to make use of them because I really like my conversion lol

Yeah, I got a DP too, so I kinda want to try out a version of a list that has a DP. lol. I mean, the deathshroud melee group advancing up the board is even slower. And bloat drones have their pros and cons too. For one, they are matchup dependent. Some lists have a fearsome amount of anti armor and bloat drones advancing up the board usually place themselves in a very exposed position to get shot at.

drones for me work well with Mortarion, alone they die in about couple of turns.

If one place on battlefield, is dangerous for a forward flying Drone, then this place is also dangerous for a forward flying DP. 9th characters are much more difficult to protect when they left large blob of soldiers.

I just find fleshmower drones never really do much. I always run 2, but they never make it across the board into a fight. They are so hard to hide with all those spikes. The only thing they are good at is soaking up some damage. I’m really considering taking them. In contrast.l, my contemptor with volkite gets some serious work done around my tallyman and is relic. It sure what to replace my mowers with... 270pts is enough to get some good stuff.

I agree, the mower drone is a bullet sponge which has its advantages but I like the HBL drone. I seem to be in the minority around here for that but I just find it consistently gets kills and survives far longer.
It's great for depleting an MSU of intercessors sat on a back objective and making your opponent suddenly have to change his plans and go back and shore up his defences.
It's much more consistent a ranged anti infantry than the PBC. But yeh, the volkite is awesome.

The only issue is if I’m going to run them as gun platforms in almost every circumstance I would rather have a contemptor with volkites l, MBH, or PBC. Both do significantly more damage. I just don’t understand why the HBL is so much more expensive

I’m looking at two units of three chaos spawns to replace one of the drones.

Contemptor with volkite is awesome I never leave home without one. But it can't always get the shot off you want.

I just find the HBL drone applies pressure to what would be a safe objective in a similar way to the PB mortar except it's far more consistent and better at killing primaris. It can also get in a scrap and it's quick and it's pretty tough and doesn't degrade.

I don't know what more to say, it just seems to always perform for me to the point where my regular opponents prioritise taking it out

I’ll give it a try and see what I think. Maybe I’ll be surprised.

MSU plague marines are certainly powerful, but my problem with them is that I just think poxwalkers are better. I’m now convinced poxwalkers are a top 3 unit in the dex as 20 man bricks are just so effective. Everyone is bringing low rate, high damage weapons to deal with the rest of our army and dark angles, and if not that then D1 weapons with AP-1 or -2 is the next choice. Both of these are punished by walkers, and I’ve found that them regaining lost models from both killing stuff and the dead walk again stratagem to be extremely powerful. Throw in mortal wounds and potential re-roll to hits and just don’t see why you’d want PM over walkers.

Just took third place in a local small tourney and Poxwalkers are wonderful. A group of them with mortal wound spamming and rerolls managed to take down Bobby.

Had 2x20 units of Poxwalkers and now I just want more.

i played 3x20 but believe is better 2x20 and 1x10 to keep if needed on flank.
What was the rest of list and which armies you faced? ty

First army was a Bobby run Ultramarine semi-Death Star list that was on foot. Lost against them because it was my first game with the new codex and was hugging too closely.
Second army was a Death Star White Scars list with ton of Bladeguard Veterans supported by a biker chaplain, Judicar, psyker and their chapter master. Won by 2 points.
last one was a Tau list that I basically tabled as they were unable to kill anything reliably.

My list

HQ
-Typhus
- 2 x Malignant Plaguecasters
:: I had some overlapping psychic powers for redundancy and had the periapt relic on one plaguecaster.
Elites
- 5 Blightlord Terminators, One had the flail and the rest had combo bolters and bubotic axes
- 3 Deathshroud Terminators with minimal gear.
- Foetid Virions: Tallyman
Troops
- 2x20 Poxwalkers
- 2x5 Plague Marines with flail and blight launcher
Fast
- 3 Myphitic Blighthaulers
Heavy
- 2 x Plagueburst Crawlers with slugger and Entropy

My experience is that Tallyman is an auto take for me. Their +1 to hit on attack and the CP generation are really nice. The myphitic Blighthaulers, despite being expensive, really paid themselves off except in the first game where I over-extended with them. Against the White Scars they alone took out a Judicar, Primaris Psyker, a squad of Bladeguard veterans, and a squad of inceptors.
Plagueburst Crawlers were decent, but I feel like I need to find a better way to use them.

The biggest disappointments was Typhus as he rarely got into combat and when he did he encountered some super buffed marine hero that deleted him. Next time I'll probably try out deepstriking him to see if I can take out better units using him. Blightlord Terminators did okay, but they did more for me in regards to secondaries than actual damage output. Deathshroud, however, did a lot of damage.

Back on the topic of secondaries, yesterday I was struggling to pick a good third secondary for my Mortarion list against a DA list heavy on deathwing. Spread the sickness is indeed as good as people made out to be, while we stand was not as great because he actually managed to wipe out mortarion, a squad of terminators and ground down the second squad to just two members, leaving me with just 5 VP. As a third I took engage on all fronts, which only gained me 4 VP total. There were no good choices for purge the enemy, is there anything I could have picked besides engage?

I did win the game by 5 VP, but if he had picked better secondaries I would have definitely lost.

I would drop at least one plaguecaster personally, swap him for another of the Virion characters like biologus or Blightspawn.

I tend to think of typhus as a super durable malignant plaguecaster who gives out reroll 1s. To me he's a buffing character with good mortal wound output and a nasty melee threat as a counter attack.

Having three full psykers in your list personally I think seems too much. Our psychic discipline is okay, but you can normally pick which of the two MW output spells will be most effective in a game.


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 Jidmah wrote:
Back on the topic of secondaries, yesterday I was struggling to pick a good third secondary for my Mortarion list against a DA list heavy on deathwing. Spread the sickness is indeed as good as people made out to be, while we stand was not as great because he actually managed to wipe out mortarion, a squad of terminators and ground down the second squad to just two members, leaving me with just 5 VP. As a third I took engage on all fronts, which only gained me 4 VP total. There were no good choices for purge the enemy, is there anything I could have picked besides engage?

I did win the game by 5 VP, but if he had picked better secondaries I would have definitely lost.

My process tends to be this on secondaries and it has been working really well for me. The other night I picked up 90 something points against a nasty deathwing army.
1.Choosing domination on any map that has an odd number of objectives. It just means you can fully lean into holding objectives and doesn't divide your game plan at all. On the even objective maps I take despoiled ground and hope for maybe 9pts.

2. Mission specific. About half of them I'd say are good for us. I pretty much about anything that involves doing an action (except the scouring I think where you can perform the action multiple times in a turn). Again anything to do with controlling objectives just means I can focus my army fully on not getting pushed off objectives which is its biggest strength and most affective method of scoring.

3. Opponent specific. Obvious ones like assassinate, titan hunters, if I don't think their army can hurt me much then WWSWF, if they have a big army with lots of units then Grind.



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Domination on a five objective map is great because if your mindset is to finish every one of your turns controlling three objectives you pick up points regardless then force your opponent to clear you off in order to stop you maxing primary.

It's always good to be dictating play, especially with a slow army.