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I figured that was a given. I build all my 40k lists based predominantly on how snuggly I find each unit...

It is, but is Core worth 40pts, a CP, no -1 to hit in melee and no access to the -1 shots strat on a unit of them? I'm not sure it is

no cost 150pts with twin volkites not much sense give missiles, and there is no way a hellbrute/MBH compete with it...i think some players, like in every edition, try relentelessy to make playable, models that are not, unless you play narrative or not competitive, in that case obviously you are right


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Azuza001 wrote:
I played a game yesterday, dg vs custodies, and this was my list.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [78 PL, 10CP, 1,500pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Plague Company: Mortarion's Anvil

+ Stratagems +

Gifts of Decay [-1CP]: Additional Relics

+ HQ +

Death Guard Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 130pts]: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 2. Gift of Contagion, 3. Hulking Physique, 4. Putrescent Vitality, Lightning Claw, Lightning Claw, Plaguechosen, Putrid Periapt, Virulent Fever

Lord of Contagion [6 PL, 120pts]: Gloaming Bloat, Plaguereaper, Reaper of Glorious Entropy, Warlord

+ Troops +

Plague Marines [12 PL, 240pts]
. Plague Champion: Daemonic plague blade, Plasma gun
. 7x Plague Marine w/ boltgun: 7x Blight grenades, 7x Boltgun, 7x Krak grenades, 7x Plague knife
. Plague Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Plague Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Plague Marines [6 PL, 115pts]
. Plague Champion: Boltgun, Daemonic plague blade
. Plague Marine w/ blight launcher: Blight launcher
. 3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Blight grenades, 3x Boltgun, 3x Krak grenades, 3x Plague knife

Poxwalkers [5 PL, 95pts]
. 19x Poxwalker: 19x Improvised weapon

+ Elites +

Deathshroud Terminators [14 PL, 250pts]
. Deathshroud Champion: Plaguespurt gauntlet
. 4x Deathshroud Terminator: 4x Manreaper, 4x Plaguespurt gauntlet

+ Fast Attack +

Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 130pts]: 2x Plaguespitter

Myphitic Blight-haulers [21 PL, 420pts]: Myphitic Blight-hauler, Myphitic Blight-hauler, Myphitic Blight-hauler

++ Total: [78 PL, 10CP, 1,500pts] ++

I had originally planned on taking a plaugesurgon and tallyman in the list but left them at home so dropped them for the bloat Drone.

Having said that the list did phenomenal. Deathshroud/term sorc/lord of contagion deep struck for linebreaker (chrs ended up sitting back in the enemy deployment zone all game getting me vp as he didn't have anything to go deal with them once they were left alone), used the 5 man with blight launcher to pop strat to give blight haulers reroll 1's to hit (Sickly Corrosion) once and it didn't do anything because that was the time I rolled well lol (oh well, killed 3 bikes though), and pox walkers with mutant strain is the Bane of custodies! I ended up doing 12 mortal wounds (and losing q4 of my own guys) over the course of 2 fight phases vs custodies with it (the dead walk again is so good!).

I loved the mbh, those little plauge puppies were by far my mvp of the game. They killed 3 custodies with spears, 2 custodies bikers, traijan volaris, a terminator banner bearer, and held the middle objective by themselves while only losing 1. That strat to lower the number of shots against them is quite good! I definitely think they have a purpose in dg lists, they give some serious firepower and mobility to an army that desperately needs some fire support.

i would give the relic reaper to Ds champion.

I mean, we were discussing multimelta and anti-tank. I think it's established that volkite is the better option and I stated as much but that has a different role.

I think it's cute that a lot of players on Dakka like to talk like they're the only authority on what is competitive.

Don Hooson is currently running four MBHs in his list and sees them as one of the best things in the codex. I'm not sure I agree with him but to say they are unplayable is completely disingenuous.

If you have a plan for them, they appear to fill their role probably better than anything else in the codex...

Abaddon303 wrote:
I mean, we were discussing multimelta and anti-tank. I think it's established that volkite is the better option and I stated as much but that has a different role.

I think it's cute that a lot of players on Dakka like to talk like they're the only authority on what is competitive.

Don Hooson is currently running four MBHs in his list and sees them as one of the best things in the codex. I'm not sure I agree with him but to say they are unplayable is completely disingenuous.

If you have a plan for them, they appear to fill their role probably better than anything else in the codex...

Exactly! This is tactics, not “this is the best unit, period.” Evaluating units in a vacuum has its merits but obviously doesn’t give the whole picture.

Speaking of the whole picture, if you had to make a list to reliably “Deploy Scramblers,” “While We Stand” and “Line Breaker,” what would the list look like? Which is the most helpful Plague Company? Is there a better set of secondaries that can reliably score points better regardless of what your opponent is doing? I’m worried that taking scramblers AND line breaker might incentivize the opponent screening their backfield all game but then again, they aren’t scoring their primary playing that game.

 Brymm wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I mean, we were discussing multimelta and anti-tank. I think it's established that volkite is the better option and I stated as much but that has a different role.

I think it's cute that a lot of players on Dakka like to talk like they're the only authority on what is competitive.

Don Hooson is currently running four MBHs in his list and sees them as one of the best things in the codex. I'm not sure I agree with him but to say they are unplayable is completely disingenuous.

If you have a plan for them, they appear to fill their role probably better than anything else in the codex...

Exactly! This is tactics, not “this is the best unit, period.” Evaluating units in a vacuum has its merits but obviously doesn’t give the whole picture.

Speaking of the whole picture, if you had to make a list to reliably “Deploy Scramblers,” “While We Stand” and “Line Breaker,” what would the list look like? Which is the most helpful Plague Company? Is there a better set of secondaries that can reliably score points better regardless of what your opponent is doing? I’m worried that taking scramblers AND line breaker might incentivize the opponent screening their backfield all game but then again, they aren’t scoring their primary playing that game.

While taking secondaries that are somewhat uninteractive (is that a word?) with your opponent is really strong, I'm not sure we are the best army to take advantage of things like deploy scramblers or linebreaker.

I tend to avoid any secondaries that involve actions. We are a pretty elite army that can't really afford to have a unit do nothing while carrying out an action. We also don't have mobile infantry and our units with built in deepstrike are expensive. Deploy scramblers is great if you have a cheap unit you can drop into your opponents DZ. I guess you could pay the CP to reserve small units of cultists?
WWSWF is great on a couple of big units of terminators

Well then with that information, which secondaries are best to take if you’re looking to play that “I don’t care what my opponent is doing, I’m scoring all these points” and which army would correspond to that?

I hear that about scramblers, I want my death shroud to flame something and maybe make a 9inch charge. Is line breaker good though? Turn 2 deep striking a 5 man blightlord squad with a character could threaten max points on that secondary while still shooting and threatening your opponents objective, with a strong counter charge element in the character.

I come back to spread the sickness instead of scramblers. Poxwalkers covering the objectives in your deployment zone and just outside of it seems like a 9point slam dunk and possibly more.

Spread the sickness is okay. The issue is the 4 GT missions that have 5 or less objectives means you're probably only getting 6 points.

I haven't tried taking linebreaker and just dropping a lump of terminators in, that could work. I tend to want to bung up the centre with my terminators but I guess if you're confident of taking your opponents home objective that could work.

The DG codex is great and I think we have a very powerful army but we do seem to lack nailed on secondary options.

Yea secondaries are not good for DG. Very hard to make them work many times due to lack of speed and so many elite troops.

I am really enjoying the Blightlords right now. In a 10-man unit their melee and shooting phases are deadly with the right strategems.

broxus wrote:
Yea secondaries are not good for DG. Very hard to make them work many times due to lack of speed and so many elite troops.

I am really enjoying the Blightlords right now. In a 10-man unit their melee and shooting phases are deadly with the right strategems.

I do think it depends sometimes on the terrain and list we are facing. Sometimes, in hindsight. I think I should seriously consider deep striking my deathshroud as a tactical option instead of only marching them up the board, and take secondaries accordingly that reflect that. Some army lists protect their back objectives with such squishy troops that they literally can't do anything against something so resilient as a 3 man unit of deathshroud dropping into the back lines.

And while its true they might be able to screen, not all armies can screen that well. Some throw so many units into the midfield that its still hard for them to do a 180 and run back into their own deployment zone.

Also, if you are running a big unit of 10 blightlords, while we stand we fight is worth considering. a big 10 man blightlord unit is hard to kill. And if he reduces that unit down to 2 or 3 models, you can always hide them from shooting to preserve that 5 points of while we stand. This applies to PBC too. So, if your WWSWF is 2 PBC and a big blightlord unit, you can use them until they are severely depleted and then hide them the rest of the game. PBCs can shoot out of line of sight so they are great even if hidden behind obscuring terrain. All 3 are extremely though.

Forcing the opponent to spend a lot of resources attacking these 3 units, and then last minute running them to hide behind some obscuring piece of terrain when they are depleted sounds pretty evil. hehe. Because I know some players might choose to ignore something like a PBC, or a 10 man blightlord unit. So, making these 3 your WWSWF secondary forces your player to make hard decisions. Does he give you that 15 points without even trying, or does he spend a Ton of resources firing at them.


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BTW, this is more dependent on what are the army lists you face in your own local meta. But I was thinking a chaos knight shooty Tyrant with those volcano cannon actually makes for a pretty good mix with a DG list. DG wants to stick to just the midfield and our own deplyment zone. a volcano lance tyrant is so long range it can easily stay in our own deployment zone. And just one such Tyrant will provide all the long range shooting we need.

A lot of armies are relying on melta and multi melta for shooting these days. DG has the resilience and bodies (pox walkers) to be able to form a slowly expanding buffer zone outwards from our deployment field while keeping those pesky meltas and multi meltas far away from our backline where that volcano lance tyrant is. 5 rounds of a Tyrant firing every round is going to hurt big time. lol. It just seems like DG and chaos knights have a lot to contribute to each other. Match made in hell?

 Brymm wrote:
I come back to spread the sickness instead of scramblers. Poxwalkers covering the objectives in your deployment zone and just outside of it seems like a 9point slam dunk and possibly more.

For me it's spread the sickness all the way now. I'd rather have 20 pox walkers sitting on a rear objecives than plague marines which never have anything in 24" range.
I often have a virion character perform spread the sickness, because I rarely care whether they take mortal wounds or not. The surgeon can even heal himself when he does.


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Eldenfirefly wrote:
Also, if you are running a big unit of 10 blightlords, while we stand we fight is worth considering. a big 10 man blightlord unit is hard to kill. And if he reduces that unit down to 2 or 3 models, you can always hide them from shooting to preserve that 5 points of while we stand. This applies to PBC too. So, if your WWSWF is 2 PBC and a big blightlord unit, you can use them until they are severely depleted and then hide them the rest of the game. PBCs can shoot out of line of sight so they are great even if hidden behind obscuring terrain. All 3 are extremely though.

Forcing the opponent to spend a lot of resources attacking these 3 units, and then last minute running them to hide behind some obscuring piece of terrain when they are depleted sounds pretty evil. hehe. Because I know some players might choose to ignore something like a PBC, or a 10 man blightlord unit. So, making these 3 your WWSWF secondary forces your player to make hard decisions. Does he give you that 15 points without even trying, or does he spend a Ton of resources firing at them.

In my games so far, PBC weren't good units for WWSWF at all, if an opponent wants one dead he rarely has any trouble one-rounding them. Essentially they are just slightly more durable LRBT now.

Wwswf seems like a good one for us if you build the list around it. I took that secondary and was planning on getting 10vp from it, got the full 15 when the srg of the 10 man plauge squad survived t5 with 1w left. 420 pts for a single squad is nuts but mbh are not going down easy, especially if you keep the cp in the back pocket for reduce shots by 1.

Linebreaker/engage on all fronts comes down to your opponents army, again with a speedy and durable squad like mbh you should be able to get into 3 table quarters by t2, and a deep stike element like 5 deathshroud can do that as well. I don't think my sorcerer was needed how I ran it, a deamon prince with the mbh's would have been a better option but at 1500 I was slightly limited. But a lord of contagion with them thats 2 units for linebreaker if your opponents army allows it, or 2 for engage. Also 250pts on the deathshroud gives you another unit for wwswf that can hide for a turn or 2 until they are garunteed safe.

For the 3rd secondary I think it comes down to what's going on. You could try and tech towards spread the sickness but honestly that doesn't interest me that much. I would pick it over raise the banners though. Mental interrogation is interesting but the dp is really the only unit I could see being free once in a while to do it and he has better stuff to be doing.

Domination is also a valid option, as well as grind them down. But all of these depend on your opponent and the mission which is fine, I like being able to get flexible with it.

Do I think dg are an army that could convince of getting the golden 100pt perfect game reliably? No way. But if I get more than 7 pts per secondary in a game and max out primary I think they are doing just fine.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
I come back to spread the sickness instead of scramblers. Poxwalkers covering the objectives in your deployment zone and just outside of it seems like a 9point slam dunk and possibly more.

For me it's spread the sickness all the way now. I'd rather have 20 pox walkers sitting on a rear objecives than plague marines which never have anything in 24" range.
I often have a virion character perform spread the sickness, because I rarely care whether they take mortal wounds or not. The surgeon can even heal himself when he does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Also, if you are running a big unit of 10 blightlords, while we stand we fight is worth considering. a big 10 man blightlord unit is hard to kill. And if he reduces that unit down to 2 or 3 models, you can always hide them from shooting to preserve that 5 points of while we stand. This applies to PBC too. So, if your WWSWF is 2 PBC and a big blightlord unit, you can use them until they are severely depleted and then hide them the rest of the game. PBCs can shoot out of line of sight so they are great even if hidden behind obscuring terrain. All 3 are extremely though.

Forcing the opponent to spend a lot of resources attacking these 3 units, and then last minute running them to hide behind some obscuring piece of terrain when they are depleted sounds pretty evil. hehe. Because I know some players might choose to ignore something like a PBC, or a 10 man blightlord unit. So, making these 3 your WWSWF secondary forces your player to make hard decisions. Does he give you that 15 points without even trying, or does he spend a Ton of resources firing at them.

In my games so far, PBC weren't good units for WWSWF at all, if an opponent wants one dead he rarely has any trouble one-rounding them. Essentially they are just slightly more durable LRBT now.

If opponent shooting is so deadly, then keep them behind obscuring. I would like to know what kind of out of line of sight ranged weapon he is using that can one round a PBC who is behind obscuring. Just shoot the entropy cannons at extreme angles cross table at enemy units at the midboard, or not at all. The 5 VP is worth more than sacrificing your PBC just to get 2 entropy cannon shots off that might not even hit. You can still do damage with your mortar. Again, this is assuming your opponent shooting is so deadly. In the meta of multi meltas now, I think its possible to keep out of range and use your forward advancing DG units to screen them out. The targets you want to shoot won't be ideal, but who cares. those WWSWF vp are more important!

If he wants to advance his attack bikes all the way till they are like within 6 inches of your deployment zone just to try and pop of some extreme angle multimelta shots at your well hidden behind obscuring PBC, then those attack bikes will be dead next turn as well. Eradicators can be screened out from your PBCs (and they need line of sight anyway).

Don't play fair with PBCs. Its not about bringing all of your firepower to bear. Its about how can you win a shootout over 5 rounds by playing cagey. Lets say you are facing 3 squads of Eradicators. Hide behind obscuring and keep lobing 3d6 shots of mortar shells at them for 5 turns. You wont kill them on round 1, but how many will be left by round 5? If he gets impatient and pop his squads out to hit other targets, thats when you can pop out after that and concentrate all firepower on him in his exposed position now.

If you are facing a imperial guard gunline. Then again hide behind obscuring from his tank commanders while moving the rest of your army forward. Guardsmen cannot stand up against DG terminators and PM. Shoot at his basilisks with your mortars. 3 basilisks vs 3 PBC. I would say the PBCs should come out ahead even if its purely mortars against basilisk artillery shots. 3d6 mortar shots per turn should have a good chance of killing or at least severely damaging 1 Basilisk per round. Wait until he gets impatient or desperate and exposes his tank commander. Thats when you can concentrate your entropy cannon fire on the tank commander to try and kill it.

Its the same for anything deadly. Hide from it, until it exposes itself. Then concentrate fire on it and kill/maim it. If you go first, don't get aggressive. Continue to hide and shoot your mortars if the deadly shooty hasn't poked its head out. Play the long game.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If opponent shooting is so deadly, then keep them behind obscuring. I would like to know what kind of out of line of sight ranged weapon he is using that can one round a PBC who is behind obscuring. Just shoot the entropy cannons at extreme angles cross table at enemy units at the midboard, or not at all. The 5 VP is worth more than sacrificing your PBC just to get 2 entropy cannon shots off that might not even hit. You can still do damage with your mortar. Again, this is assuming your opponent shooting is so deadly. In the meta of multi meltas now, I think its possible to keep out of range and use your forward advancing DG units to screen them out. The targets you want to shoot won't be ideal, but who cares. those WWSWF vp are more important!

Things that tend to kill my PBCs are usually either highly mobile like planes, fast vehicles with FLY or bikes which can line up shots even if I hid, or fast melee units. I have found that WWSWF works much better with terminator squads or a large plague marine squad as my most expensive units, as there is no "cheat" to kill them quickly, while PBC, daemon princes or Mortarion can tend to reward 0 VP. In addition, this allows me to freely use entropy cannons and the rothail volley gun to reduce my opponent's ability to respond to my terminators.

If he wants to advance his attack bikes all the way till they are like within 6 inches of your deployment zone just to try and pop of some extreme angle multimelta shots at your well hidden behind obscuring PBC, then those attack bikes will be dead next turn as well. Eradicators can be screened out from your PBCs (and they need line of sight anyway).

Don't play fair with PBCs. Its not about bringing all of your firepower to bear. Its about how can you win a shootout over 5 rounds by playing cagey. Lets say you are facing 3 squads of Eradicators. Hide behind obscuring and keep lobing 3d6 shots of mortar shells at them for 5 turns. You wont kill them on round 1, but how many will be left by round 5? If he gets impatient and pop his squads out to hit other targets, thats when you can pop out after that and concentrate all firepower on him in his exposed position now.

More than half of my games aren't against vanilla marines, and if they are, I'm not particularly worried about beating them. I rarely face three squads of eradicators since such a lists pretty much an auto-lose if they face an ork, necron or slanesh horde, all regular participants in our games.

Its the same for anything deadly. Hide from it, until it exposes itself. Then concentrate fire on it and kill/maim it. If you go first, don't get aggressive. Continue to hide and shoot your mortars if the deadly shooty hasn't poked its head out. Play the long game.

True, but our boards don't allow for more than one or two units of the size of a PBC to hide from everything all game. We have found such "no LoS anywhere" boards skew the game too much in favor of elite melee units, while more balanced boards eliminate many of the balance issues people have when facing marines. I think this is the main reason why we have different views on this.

I'm not sure I can agree on hiding PBCs. The mortar alone is just not effective enough for a 175pt model regardless of whether it nets 5VP. Rolling average dice you won't kill a single eradicator per turn.

If i take WWSWF it's normally on two big units of terminators and a PBC and i figure i'll probably lose one of those. 10pts is fine for a secondary. Hiding the PBC means focus isn't taken off my terminators.

If my oponent wants to deny me 5VP and goes after my PBC, it probably means my two terminators are getting an easier time. If they are not getting whittled away right from the start then I'm probably going to win the game on primary anyway.

Agreed on terrain, we play on a board with usually 4 huge 10x10 tall buildings in each quarter with a smaller obscuring piece in the middle, along with patches of area terrain and hills. Even with multiple big chunky things to hide behind, I can only hide 2 PBCs for really one or two turns before something gets an angle, but then it’s usually not enough to one shot one.

I’ve comically tried to hide most of my army turn 1 against an admech list behind two of those two big LOS blockers, and while i stopped the disintegrators from killing me turn 1, I was so hamstrung by being out of position, I got whalloped on primaries.

i guess DG need to splash some heretic astartes in their lists, a WB sorcerer and you are not that slow again, access to death hex kill some list itself.

I guess there is no perfect solution. DG's strength is resilience and melee, while its weakness is being slow. and not that shooty.

you can fix both if you like

I wouldn't necessarily say we are completely hamstrung by our speed. Our infantry is slow, but with mediocre or no firepower i never feel like I'm missing out on much by advancing a lot of my army first turn. And then we have drones, MBH, GBD all are crazy quick compared to a dreadnought etc. The core of our resilient infantry is no slower than loyalist terminators or gravis etc.
I honestly don't think there is a situation where souping in CSM is worthwhile. Not just because you lose contagions but also the CP tax. CSM are not in a great place either so outside of a sorcerer there's not much else I'd want to bring along.
That might change when they get their new codex but I've pretty much given up on CSM for now as they are just utterly outclassed right now.


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Actually CSM terminators are decent value at the moment but DG terms are just better

csm is used only for WB sorcerer, have you idea how much death hex/warptime impact? I gladly lost -1T contagion and DG secondaries to have utility spells like that. Last but no least the chaos familiar stratagem...
Throw Morty against things like bladeguards or custodes with otìr without Inv save...is a game changer.

Well, and if you're adding CSM, Emp's Children Noise Marines are just obscenely powerful shooting from behind an advancing wall of Death Guard.

yes another good option, 490pts of Mortarion swapped for EC patrol noise+termies with LC.

Are we souping in a CSM sorcery? Or Ahriman instead?

WB is better because of stratagem, if you fail a critical power you can let it goes off, anyway Ts are fine too.

 blackmage wrote:
WB is better because of stratagem, if you fail a critical power you can let it goes off, anyway Ts are fine too.

The strategem is the big reason to take the sorcerer I agree, that + being 35 points cheapner, and jetpack. However, you also are losing an extra cast, the extra range on spells (good for warptime and deathhex) and most importantly
+ 1 to deny and 2 extra denies. Good when handling stuff like dark angle, tyranid, and mirror matchup powers. Also you will have to spend 1 CP to get the WB relic for your guy and while the stratagem is amazing, it will cost you CP as well. It still might be worth it to play the WB sorcerer over Ahriman, but I don’t think it’s a clear cut answer.

 blackmage wrote:
csm is used only for WB sorcerer, have you idea how much death hex/warptime impact? I gladly lost -1T contagion and DG secondaries to have utility spells like that. Last but no least the chaos familiar stratagem...
Throw Morty against things like bladeguards or custodes with otìr without Inv save...is a game changer.

Yea the biggest issue is getting around the transhuman. Morty struggles to kill anything with that. On average (if they have an invulnerable) Mortarian only kills 1-2 a turn.

Salt donkey wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
WB is better because of stratagem, if you fail a critical power you can let it goes off, anyway Ts are fine too.

The strategem is the big reason to take the sorcerer I agree, that + being 35 points cheapner, and jetpack. However, you also are losing an extra cast, the extra range on spells (good for warptime and deathhex) and most importantly
+ 1 to deny and 2 extra denies. Good when handling stuff like dark angle, tyranid, and mirror matchup powers. Also you will have to spend 1 CP to get the WB relic for your guy and while the stratagem is amazing, it will cost you CP as well. It still might be worth it to play the WB sorcerer over Ahriman, but I don’t think it’s a clear cut answer.

is not like that list play... you dont need anytime warptime/deahex on sorcerer, if you have Morty you use chaos familiar if needed, you dont need the relic really. Arhiman is great but if he fails, he fails period and happen more often than you can ever believe, you have 3 deny with Mortarion+couple more with malignant and WB sorcerer, is usually enough. Anway both are good choices, without morty anyway warptime a block or blightlords/deatshouds/FBD, prescience on a PBC, still can be game changing, death hex on a large block of DA termies can change outcome of a game anyway.
tried list with and without heretic astartes psy powers and anytime i feel i prefer spend 2 extra CP for HA detachement.

Ok, for all you guys who played games yet: what are your most used stratagems (besides the pre-game ones)?

flash outbreak,mutant strain

Stoni42 wrote:
Ok, for all you guys who played games yet: what are your most used stratagems (besides the pre-game ones)?

For me it's Haze of Corruption, Mutant Strain and Disgusting Force. There are quite a few which I use should the occasion arise, but these three I use multiple times every game.