Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed

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**blackmage**

i still didn't see the whole set of rules, do someone have them? ty

**Salt donkey**

blackmage wrote:
i still didn't see the whole set of rules, do someone have them? ty

Auspex tactics on YouTube has the rules laid out in a good manner. Just look up his terminus Est video.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I will give it some testing if I can and see how it goes. I think its a bit wasted if we don't take advantage of the deep strike PM squads. Its one of the perks of the Terminus Est force after all. I think the pox walkers are great, but the army doesn't fall apart just because you lose your poxwalkers. Because in most lists, even if you run 3 squads, they won't even be 20% of your list in total points.

Even if you ran into an opponent who is so traumatized by poxwalkers he throws every single gun he has towards obliterating them, that means he literally spent all his shooting killing models which are only 5 points each. And if he even fails to kill that last few which you hide behind obscuring cover, you bring the entire squad back again. Overly focusing all the energy on this 250 to 300 points of poxwalkers means he is going to lose to the rest of the 1700 points of your army he ignored.

Regarding vehicles. My view is that if its purely shooting vehicles. Those do not win you the game in 9th edition if they are all you have. I played a game with an IG+white scars player. He had two tank commanders and two fully loaded manticores, using vengence of Cadia each turn. But after I killed everything else in his army, we talked through it and agreed he couldn't win after that. Because these vehicles can literally only stand there and shoot. Even if by some amazing dice rolls, he manages the impossible task of shooting my whole army off the board, it would be too late by then. (Probably need to be turn 5), plus by then, he would have zero assets to take back objectives and win VP.

Besides, in my post above, I think the army has a good chance of shooting off most or all of the chaff after the PMs deep strike in. After that, just get into melee on the vehicles and tag them while staying on objectives. If we can win with a few vehicles shooting for 5 turns, we can definitely win with a few vehicles shooting effectively for only 2 or 3 turns while being tagged and forced to shoot into combat for the remaining turns.

The thing is, DG are very lethal in close combat. Every single one of our units, from our terminators to even our pox walkers will give someone a bad time if you get into close combat with us. Even if you are a vehicle, you do not want to get into melee range with us unless you are some kind of combat dreadnaught. Blightlords and deathshroud are litereally wounding T7 vehicles on 4s even without any strategems and poxwalkers don't care because they just rely on pumping out mortal wounds anyway. And its not as if the Terminus strike force list is a pure melee army either. PMs, terminators, blightspawn can all shoot, and our psychic bullets are not to be scoffed at either. If you ignore 10 blightlords, 6 deathshrouds and 15 PM firing their guns at you.... you are going to be in a bad place.

To be honest the Deep striking ability excites me the least about this formation. It just cost too much CP for me to deepstrike more than 1 unit (if that), especially when I could be spending that CP to make my poxwalkers faster, kill harder, or come back from the dead.

Also the problem is no of our infantry does enough shooting to pressure your opponents firepower. While we can survive plenty of heavy firepower, our army is more durable when where can whittle opposing firepower. There is a big difference between 2 Tank commanders shooting us for 4 turns vs 3 as an example.

**Eldenfirefly**

True, but I would caution over reliance on our pox walkers. They are great but, they can be killed. In the end, they are T4 with a 6+ FNP. Dedicated infantry killers will kill them. Like I said before, even if we take as many as 80, its just 400 points, which is barely 20% of our army. If our opponent cannot handle, and is in turn beaten by 20% of our army, then his list and game play likely wasn't all that good.

Deep striking PM are a threat that can't be ignored. Especially because they are obsec. And deep striking reduces their vulnerability to shooting to just the turn they come down (or maybe not even that if they make the 9 inch charge).

I haven't test out the Terminus Est list yet, but I am keen to give it a go. It actually seems to make picking secondaries easier. It doubles down on board control and getting VP in lieu of giving up vehicle killing ability. I think we might be under estimating this type of list. A skewed list might beat it.. maybe. But it should do well against far far more typical lists out there.

One more benefit I thought of, in giving up PBCs is that our army has zero melee vulnerabilities. With vehicles, you have to watch out for some deep strike or being tagged by a flying or super fast unit that charges into your PBC. With the Terminus Est list, the whole army is capable of fighting in close combat. So, there is no longer any such vulnerability there.

Not saying Terminus Est lists is better than our codex lists. Just that they are slightly different and may be just as powerful in their own way.

(I guess when it comes down to it, I also want a reason to field more plague marines, Its kind of sad that plague marines just don't really cut it right now when I try and use them. Terminators are better and pox walkers are much cheaper. So, if even deep striking PMs don't cut it, then our signature PM will have very little representation in my lists sadly).

**Salt donkey**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
True, but I would caution over reliance on our pox walkers. They are great but, they can be killed. In the end, they are T4 with a 6+ FNP. Dedicated infantry killers will kill them. Like I said before, even if we take as many as 80, its just 400 points, which is barely 20% of our army. If our opponent cannot handle, and is in turn beaten by 20% of our army, then his list and game play likely wasn't all that good.

Deep striking PM are a threat that can't be ignored. Especially because they are obsec. And deep striking reduces their vulnerability to shooting to just the turn they come down (or maybe not even that if they make the 9 inch charge).

I haven't test out the Terminus Est list yet, but I am keen to give it a go. It actually seems to make picking secondaries easier. It doubles down on board control and getting VP in lieu of giving up vehicle killing ability. I think we might be under estimating this type of list. A skewed list might beat it.. maybe. But it should do well against far far more typical lists out there.

One more benefit I thought of, in giving up PBCs is that our army has zero melee vulnerabilities. With vehicles, you have to watch out for some deep strike or being tagged by a flying or super fast unit that charges into your PBC. With the Terminus Est list, the whole army is capable of fighting in close combat. So, there is no longer any such vulnerability there.

Not saying Terminus Est lists is better than our codex lists. Just that they are slightly different and may be just as powerful in their own way.

(I guess when it comes down to it, I also want a reason to field more plague marines, Its kind of sad that plague marines just don't really cut it right now when I try and use them. Terminators are better and pox walkers are much cheaper. So, if even deep striking PMs don't cut it, then our signature PM will have very little representation in my lists sadly).

I think we agree on the viability on the assault force as whole. Just because I’m calling it’s lack of long range firepower a weakness doesn’t mean I don’t think it can’t be competitive. Time will tell on this one.

Where we differ is how we see the role of PM in this build. I see this army maybe running 1 squad as a deepstrike nuisance unit. In essence a unit that comes in at a hole in your OP army and steals an objective and/or preforms actions. You seem to have this idea of bringing 3 squads down as some kind hammer of wrath style Teleport strike, which frankly doesn’t make much sense to me. For my money PM are exactly a non-threat that can absolutely be ignored, unless you paid points to make them killy in which case you are better off using terminators anyway. That’s the fundamental problem of PM vs Poxwalkers. Both are durable for their point cost but poxwalkers need CP to be killy whereas PM need more points investment to be killy. That’s a problem because spending more points on unit decreases their durability.

You can either believe me on this or do what ninjafiredragon and bring them to event only to change your mind after it’s over. (IMO I think there’s a good chance he wins his last game if he made the changes he decided on by dropping the PM for 2 deathshroud units). That said I think he did well against the competition he faced.

**Eldenfirefly**

Tabletop titans just had a game using a Terminus Est list. Adrian took too many pox walkers and it ended up putting him at a disadvantage because Brian then took the Thin their ranks secondary and easily maxed out on that.

But those deep striking plague marines were good! A min 5 man squad with a flail is surprisingly effective in many situations. I think a Terminus Est list with enough terminators, 50 to 60 pox walkers and 3 min PM squads will be pretty a pretty lean and mean list.

**MinMax**

Since losing Blades of Putrefaction, I've become much less enamored with the Contagion discipline. I think the Fester discipline has some real potential - and being able to use both if you have multiple psykers is excellent.

Anyone tried a Rotten Constitution Daemon Prince with Accelerated Entropy? It's swingy, but you can take a serious bite out of almost anything.

**Castozor**

MinMax wrote:
Since losing Blades of Putrefaction, I've become much less enamored with the Contagion discipline. I think the Fester discipline has some real potential - and being able to use both if you have multiple psykers is excellent.

Anyone tried a Rotten Constitution Daemon Prince with Accelerated Entropy? It's swingy, but you can take a serious bite out of almost anything.

I loved Blades but with our new -1T I find most of my units are deadly enough as is in Melee. Miasma will always be amazing and the rest of the Contagion spells are decent. My main issue with the new Fester discipline is that while it has some good spells, all but one are warp charge 7 which is pretty steep for a faction with no way but one to get better results on the cast and even then only for one Psyker. That's before we start factoring in the loss of our vehicle pool for it too.

**Brymm**

Warp Charge 7 with no +1 to cast anywhere is hard as heck, what a major drawback I hadn’t really paid attention to. Thanks for bringing that up !

**Virules**

They definitely made the Fester discipline too high in terms of WC value. No idea what GW was thinking there.

**blackmage**

Virules wrote:
They definitely made the Fester discipline too high in terms of WC value. No idea what GW was thinking there.

since when GW thinks when making rules?

**Eldenfirefly**

Virules wrote:
They definitely made the Fester discipline too high in terms of WC value. No idea what GW was thinking there.

I agree. A major downside to taking the Fester descipline. I hope its optional to take it rather than mandatory. I bet they got sucked into the whole 7 is Nurgle's number fluff again.

**MinMax**

It's optional, you may choose to generate from the Fester discipline or the Contagion discipline.

**Eldenfirefly**

MinMax wrote:
It's optional, you may choose to generate from the Fester discipline or the Contagion discipline.

Thank goodness! I just got the book. Yup, its optional. That's a relief.

BTW, I just had a great game with DG. It was a DG vs DG matchup. We were both a bit cagey at first and didn't want to go all in charging at each other. But ultimately, all the terminators clashed and it was a bloodbath!!! My army had 6 deathshroud and 10 blightlords. His army had 4 deathshroud and 15 blightlords! By the end of the game, I had only 3 blightlords left and he had 5 Ieft I think. lol. Who said DG couldn't deal damage? Both of us still had our 3 PBCs though. Those are just so hard to kill we didn't bother and mostly just directed all fire onto the rest of the army. I lost by just 1 VP because of a tactical error. I ain't even mad! Such close games are the best to play !

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I faced a space wolf LR in another battle previously, and it got me seriously thinking about Land Raiders. The thing is, you can put deathshrouds into a LR, plus 1 or 2 characters, and that would be a well protected, super mean punch. Even 9 PM with a biologus in a LR is deadly when they come out of that LR.

And a LR is not easy to kill. Its different from a super heavy in that it can be hidden behind obscuring. So, if you are facing shooting that is so deadly (like maybe admech), it can hide behind obscuring terrain. You still give a +3 inch movement to your stuff piling out of the LR.

Also, now that smoke screen is a strategem, you can shoot plus activate smoke screen every turn if you want. And the LR has a fair amount of guns on it. The space wolf LR I faced died in the end, but that was on turn 5. It was doing smoke screen and firing all guns every turn, it delivered wolfen into battle. That model did a ton of work. And I couldn't help thinking it would be cool for DG too.

And it might be better in today's melta environment too. Mainly because we don't need a LR to move so aggressively forward. We just need it to protect and give 3 more inches movement to a deathshroud or a PM squad. So, a LR can stay out of multimelta range if it wants to. That plus making use of obscuring terrain, and smoke screen... I think a LR would actually do a lot of work for a DG army.

Just throwing it out here.

**Abaddon303**

I think land raiders might be a little more interesting if they had other weapon options besides Lascannons. They're just so underwhelming on a vehicle that needs to move in close to drop off it's cargo.
The Achilles is a little more interesting with its 2x twin multimelta and an invulnerable save. That would probably wipe a unit of 4 or 5 eradicators and go a long way to helping it survive. The trouble is the Achilles only has a transport capacity of 6.
And that sums up all the LRs. They don't do anything really well. Not a great tank, not a great transport, not particularly durable, not particularly quick...

**Brymm**

I also think land raiders are secretly good, just pointed too high. I’ve posted before that most units can “be good” if priced right, and the Land Raider is like the poster boy of this theory. If they came with DR, 295 would even still seem too steep. Perhaps if they could take entropy cannons and blight launchers instead of HBs and Lascannons, or if their smoke screen also put up your warlord’s contagion, or if they could regen wounds or really anything else that would make them more Death Guardy AND better, I could stomach that price tag.

Put them at 225 as is, I’d run them.

**blackmage**

how guys can ever belive for a second that a tank cost almost 300pts, no inv.save no way to mitigate damage and just armed with 2 lascannons can be barely good in a meta where top lists can delete an IK and half in 1 single turn... without take into account how much expensive DG already is.

**Abaddon303**

Christ you're insufferable, nobody is claiming they're competitive, but they could be made to work in fun games. Sometimes people just want to hammer out the best way to run their favourite units.

They are undoubtedly sub-optimal, but in a tuned list, with the landraider being the only real fat in the list I'm sure it can be made to work...

**Eldenfirefly**

Yeah, I wish they were cheaper in points. Guess it would be in more casual kind of lists. :( In the end, the LR would be cut for other stuff if we wanted to make the list leaner.

**Salt donkey**

While I agree blackmage can be a bit overly harsh when it comes to unit criticism (by blurring the line between unit and people cristism, but hey I’m guilty of this to as are many others) I have say he’s mostly right about the landraider. Sure you can make a list that works playing it, but I’d expect that one descion to lower such a lists win percentage by 4-8%. If landraiders could re-rolls or any buffs that didn’t include stratagems I’d like them more, but at the moment their a mediocre shooting platform, an expensive transport, and fragile for their points. You can never not love their look/fluff, but atm I’d never consider running them in a competitive list.

**blackmage**

Abaddon303 wrote:
Christ you're insufferable, nobody is claiming they're competitive, but they could be made to work in fun games. Sometimes people just want to hammer out the best way to run their favourite units.

They are undoubtedly sub-optimal, but in a tuned list, with the landraider being the only real fat in the list I'm sure it can be made to work...

ok then....a few eradicators/melta bikes are enough to wreak a LR, im not talking or super optimized tournament lists, a normal list too can use them and take out 300pts of model+eventually models that can die in explosion. 300pts for a walking coffin is too much no matter the level of play, in "friendly" games rhino are a better choice.

**Salt donkey**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Tabletop titans just had a game using a Terminus Est list. Adrian took too many pox walkers and it ended up putting him at a disadvantage because Brian then took the Thin their ranks secondary and easily maxed out on that.

But those deep striking plague marines were good! A min 5 man squad with a flail is surprisingly effective in many situations. I think a Terminus Est list with enough terminators, 50 to 60 pox walkers and 3 min PM squads will be pretty a pretty lean and mean list.

Word of warning, tabletop titans should not be considered a competitive 40k resource. Their goal has been clearly been to cram out as much content as quickly as possible with as many armies as possible. They still work their day jobs, and have been focusing on video quality and viewer engagement.

Why I bring this all up is all this requires that something else is given up, and to me that something is actual gameplay. None of their armies have been top tier competitive for a while (or at all competitive). Some of this is intentional, but I think their lists are worse than even they think they are.

The bigger problem they have is rules mistakes. From constant codex errors (since they play so many armies) to just general mistakes, there hasn’t been case I’ve seen recently where chat hasn’t had to correct the guys at least 5-10 times a game, and sometimes it’s more like 15-20 (if are looking at any errors they make.

Case in point the BR you are referencing has the objectives 3 inches closer to Brian’s Deployment zone than Adrians. That allowed Brian to take objectives in a way that prevented Adrain from even contesting without killing Brian’s custodes first. This one error probably increased Brian’s win percentage by 20-30% as it gave him an easy way to win the primary, which would have been Adrian’s win condition. I’d also say that Adrain’s list would still be better if he dropped the PM for terminators, but I think he wanted to show off deep-striking PMs.

This is a long way to say I don’t evaluate this BR as being at all relevant at gauging the strengths and weaknesses of the terminus Est strike force.

**Abaddon303**

blackmage wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Christ you're insufferable, nobody is claiming they're competitive, but they could be made to work in fun games. Sometimes people just want to hammer out the best way to run their favourite units.

They are undoubtedly sub-optimal, but in a tuned list, with the landraider being the only real fat in the list I'm sure it can be made to work...

ok then....a few eradicators/melta bikes are enough to wreak a LR, im not talking or super optimized tournament lists, a normal list too can use them and take out 300pts of model+eventually models that can die in explosion. 300pts for a walking coffin is too much no matter the level of play, in "friendly" games rhino are a better choice.

As I said, nobody is claiming they are competitive it's just tiresome that whenever anybody mentions a non A-tier unit you throw scoff and scorn at them like they're some kind of idiot. People are here to just shoot the breeze about units in the army, the competitive units in the codex have already been well established so otherwise what more is there to discuss?

Fact is, our terminators have inbuilt deepstrike and possessed take up too much space so transports are largely not worth it in our army along with the smaller board. If you did have something you really needed to transport tho, T8, 2+ save and smokescreen does make the land raider considerably tougher than a rhino.

In fact it'll take about 5 melta shots at half range to wreck a rhino and more like 15 to kill a land raider so that 300% price tag gives you about 300% durability. I appreciate it gets a bit wonky when it's eradicators as they are best into a single big target.

**Eldenfirefly**

Yeah, I was throwing out the LR for discussion. I know its probably not the most competitive, but sometimes, you might not want to bring the most cut throat list out there to a game. And in some matchups, a LR might not be that bad. Like for example, in a DG mirror matchup. DG don't have easy ways to kill a LR. I know, because I played against one, and even with 3 PBCs, I could only kill a LR at the last turn. That -1 to hit smokescreen is really effective against PBCs.

Same about Tabletop titans, I think they are good enough. They sometimes suffer because they have almost every army, and they are willing to try all the newest armies too. But 9th edition is getting pretty complicated. Each new codex has a lot of new rules in it. Given their battle reports are live and not pre-recorded. I think they already do fine. And both are great players. They will let some perfect play slide every now and then because its not a tourney match, but they have probably played far more 40k games than most of us have during this Covid time. So, I would still say they have far more experience than the majority of us out here because of the sheer number of 40k games they have played against each other.

I also think they do showcase very well what various armies bring to the table. At the end of the day, its a dice roll game too. But certain strategies and units showcase their effectiveness and power despite all the dice rolling. Like if I am facing a Drkuri army now, I am going to give those fragile dark elves a ton of respect because wow are they deadly in close combat!!!

**Salt donkey**

Look as far as entertainment goes TTT (Titans) are a great resource. Realistically, I think the only thing we disagree on with here is taking them as any sort of higher 40k authority. Playing too many armies and only having themselves as regular opponents hurts their competitively. As an example, they where the chief proponents that Ad-mech where an S tier army when 9th first came out. Everyone picked up on this because they where 9th Ed playtesters, so you kept seeing “Ad-mech are likely the best army atm” etc, etc parroted all over the place. A few COVID tournaments happen and.... Ad mech don’t win anything, and the builds that are good have little to do with what TTT said was good.

Similar things occurred with blood angles and now I fear Drukhari. If I ever bought models solely on what I think is good I’d never trust TTT in my decision making. Just because guys play a lot of games does not mean they are more knowledgeable about the game than everyone else. Trust what stats say, not what content creators say.

**Jidmah**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, I was throwing out the LR for discussion. I know its probably not the most competitive, but sometimes, you might not want to bring the most cut throat list out there to a game. And in some matchups, a LR might not be that bad. Like for example, in a DG mirror matchup. DG don't have easy ways to kill a LR. I know, because I played against one, and even with 3 PBCs, I could only kill a LR at the last turn. That -1 to hit smokescreen is really effective against PBCs.

I was barely able to make a LR work for me with war of the spider where I could give it 5++/5+++. I haven't tried one yet with the new codex, but I doubt that -1 to hit is enough to keep it alive against all the d3+3 and melta weapons out there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I also think they do showcase very well what various armies bring to the table. At the end of the day, its a dice roll game too. But certain strategies and units showcase their effectiveness and power despite all the dice rolling. Like if I am facing a Drkuri army now, I am going to give those fragile dark elves a ton of respect because wow are they deadly in close combat!!!

I played against them yesterday and holy crap do they do damage now. Luckily, they still die exactly as fast as they did before, but there is a real threat of them completely wiping out a DG army even if you go heavy on terminators. I feel like I definitely need a plan to pop their transports ASAP, a boat full of trueborn can easily clear out all your poxwalkers and you do not want that shredder build master succubus to connect with your terminators - she can take out an entire squad of 5 on her own.

**Eldenfirefly**

Jidmah wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, I was throwing out the LR for discussion. I know its probably not the most competitive, but sometimes, you might not want to bring the most cut throat list out there to a game. And in some matchups, a LR might not be that bad. Like for example, in a DG mirror matchup. DG don't have easy ways to kill a LR. I know, because I played against one, and even with 3 PBCs, I could only kill a LR at the last turn. That -1 to hit smokescreen is really effective against PBCs.

I was barely able to make a LR work for me with war of the spider where I could give it 5++/5+++. I haven't tried one yet with the new codex, but I doubt that -1 to hit is enough to keep it alive against all the d3+3 and melta weapons out there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I also think they do showcase very well what various armies bring to the table. At the end of the day, its a dice roll game too. But certain strategies and units showcase their effectiveness and power despite all the dice rolling. Like if I am facing a Drkuri army now, I am going to give those fragile dark elves a ton of respect because wow are they deadly in close combat!!!

I played against them yesterday and holy crap do they do damage now. Luckily, they still die exactly as fast as they did before, but there is a real threat of them completely wiping out a DG army even if you go heavy on terminators. I feel like I definitely need a plan to pop their transports ASAP, a boat full of trueborn can easily clear out all your poxwalkers and you do not want that shredder build master succubus to connect with your terminators - she can take out an entire squad of 5 on her own.

In that game, there was a big piece of obscuring ruins terrain in the middle of the board. So, his LR was on one side of that terrain. As my PBCs were spread out, only 2 could get line of sight. (And on turn 1 and 2, none could). He popped smoke, so that means those two were shooting a total of 4 shots at 4+ to hit. And I didnt have the LR in contagion range, so 4s to wound. 4 to hit, 4 to wound, I totally wiffed on turn 3, and only managed to wound once with the 4 shots on turn 4. Hence why it only died on turn 5.

I am sure there are bad matchups for the LR. But in some matchups, a LR could be interesting. Just saying.

Statistically though, if only 2 PBCs were shooting their entropy cannons at a LR with smoke screen. Getting only 1 wound through is statistically average. And if you can only do D3+3 damage every turn. You could take 4 turns to inflict the 16 wounds required to kill that LR if you rolled bad for the damage roll. And that's assuming the LR failed all its armor saves of 6. And even if you threw in the mortars, its 4s to hit, 4s to wound, and then 4s to save... You would be lucky to get even a single mortar shell through all that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, another topic. Have anyone of you faced the new Drukhari yet? I have no idea how to fight them. Their fragile T3 is a trap, because they can hide in transports until they are ready to charge out. And they are extremely cheap and so they trade units really well. And as a poster above said, they are so deadly in combat even our terminators will face problems. (High volume of attacks, which is our bane). So, how should we fight Drukhari as DG ? Jidmah, can share more about your match? How do you think we should fight Drukhari ?

**Jidmah**

Well, I totally bombed that match by making three grave playing errors and only won because my opponent failed two 5" charges in the same turn, so I'd rather not give a full battle report

I also was playtesting poxmongers which didn't go so well. Theirstratagem is actually quite nice against drukhari, but the furnace isn't that great anymore and not having a good contagion sucks.

Outside of that, some things did work well:
Drukhari suck at defending their backfield objectives, so I deep struck my deathshroud who destroyed a ravager, took an objective and denied a table quarter for their codex objective (2VP for every quarter the opponent isn't fully in).
I had a trio of MBH which he had no good answer for but PBC probably would have been much better.
Curse of the leper was gold for clearing out infantry, as are flamers. I used overwatch whenever possible.
As for melee threats, wyches and blood brides aren't that dangerous for DG, incubi are bad but not impossible to kill (I got 7 with just poxwalkers), but the characters are absolutely insane. My opponent had Drazhar, a master succubus with 10 attacks that does 2 MW on each roll of 6 and a master archon with the djinn blade. The last two are insane glass cannons that you can just murder after they have eaten a unit, but darzhar now sports a 2+/4++ and hits like a knight. I have no clue what to do about him. Shot and charged him with plague marines, he killed them in a single turn. Tried to tarpit him with pox walkers afterwards, he went through 13 of them before they could fight.
As for shooting, massed dark lances are nasty with their d3+3 damage, and trueborn kabalites are just insane - they hit on 2+ and ignore modifiers, they essentially deleted whatever they wanted without getting out of their boat. Eventually they had to get out to hold an objective, but then were completely wiped out by Typhus who drowned them in mortal wounds and cut down the remaining 5.

So essentially, I still killed most things by charging them, drukhari can't take punch at all. They key to defeating them seems to be taking out their combat monsters at minimal losses and popping transports early.

**Abaddon303**

8th was all about killing their transports as a first priority. That seems to be still the case then? Is most of their anti-tank coming from their vehicles?

**Eldenfirefly**

Right now, against a good player, I think we would be at a slight disadvantage against Drukhari. Because their beatstick characters hide amongst their army until its time to come out and play. And that makes it difficult to get to them. Their darklances are the same as our Entropy cannons (3+d3) but they can pack more of them than our 6 with 3 PBCs.

I agree though, the crucial thing seems to be to pop their transports. But if we try and do it by melee we sacrifice our melee units to pop it. And we are not exactly known for having alot of anti tank.

**Salt donkey**

As far as drukhari are concerned, I see 2 main issues when facing them. First are raiders as we aren’t very good at popping open transports and raiders do work protecting their units from our overwatch (more on that later). Second is how dangerous their characters are. These are what’s going to kill our stuff.

Otherwise I’m not too worried about the new dex. In fact I think our matchup with them improved with their new book. Reason for this dark Eldar used to be a mobile shooting army using tough transports and wracks to hold objectives. Now they are hard hitting glass cannon assault army. We prefer facing assault armies much more than than gunline transport armies, as our units are extremely hard to kill in a round of melee.

To that end I think our mainstay units are quite effective at dealing with dark Eldar, while our more niche units got worse. Deathshroud our amazing as their flamers in overwatch are quite effective at dealing with their hammer units, and the champion by himself is still a major threat to a lot of their units. Morty is also excellent as gloaming bloat does a lot to neutralize a lot of these units CC output (and dark Eldar traditionally struggle to deal with big models. PBC are still a must to pop open transports. Mower drones are also still good since they have mobility to charge before being charged.

On the other hand PMs have problems against them due to dying quickly to things like witches and characters. I also think blightlords are a tad weak against them as well since their overwatch is worse than deathshroud and 1 guy living from them is far less of a problem for the drukhari player. Any vehicle with no inv is just asking for trouble, since drukhari have a bunch of ways to get through armor.