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Arcanis161 wrote:
Not sure if it would be a buff, but I personally would love Stormtroopers for the regular Guard, maybe for an extra point or two per model or at the cost of Deep Strike. Basically, a way to fit Scions/Stormtroopers into regular Guard detachments and a way to get them to take orders from Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders.

Not sure how much it would actually help, but it's something.

Guard need nothing. They already managed to slip the points loop and stay at the lowest possible point cost despite being flatly better (including orders) than units than are up to double their point costs, and they'll get all the shiny new weapon upgrades on day 1 of the marine update.

People worried about the defensive upgrade of marines, I'm worried about the offensive update to already underpriced models.

Why are you including Orders in this?

What do Officers bring to the table other than Orders? They're literally just Shouty Wizards at this point.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why are you including Orders in this?

What do Officers bring to the table other than Orders? They're literally just Shouty Wizards at this point.

He doesn't have to 5ppm guard vrs 9PPM Kabalites, Guardians even FW would like a word.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible broken BS points that are CA2020.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why are you including Orders in this?

What do Officers bring to the table other than Orders? They're literally just Shouty Wizards at this point.

He doesn't have to 5ppm guard vrs 9PPM Kabalites, Guardians even FW would like a word.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible broken BS points that are CA2020.

Maybe stop pretending like those points actually matter right now?

Seriously, even if we were not in the middle of a frigging pandemic that has basically shuttered open gaming, there would be zero sympathy from me for anyone insisting on playing points only right now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why are you including Orders in this?

What do Officers bring to the table other than Orders? They're literally just Shouty Wizards at this point.

He doesn't have to 5ppm guard vrs 9PPM Kabalites, Guardians even FW would like a word.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible broken BS points that are CA2020.

Maybe stop pretending like those points actually matter right now?

Seriously, even if we were not in the middle of a frigging pandemic that has basically shuttered open gaming, there would be zero sympathy from me for anyone insisting on playing points only right now.

Seriously your argument is my unit being clearly undercosted doesnt matter becuase pandemic? Really that's your argument?

My "argument" is that if ever there were a time to not give a crap about point values as we transition into a new edition, it's when there's a pandemic.

Enjoy being on ignore in the future.

 Kanluwen wrote:
My "argument" is that if ever there were a time to not give a crap about point values as we transition into a new edition, it's when there's a pandemic.

Enjoy being on ignore in the future.

people still play the game even with the pandemic going on. Either on tabletop simulator , with roomates or even at stores that start reopening in areas where its "under control".

 Kanluwen wrote:
...which was kinda ridiculous.

Not that ridiculous. They are part of a hive mind.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No. Cult Brood Brothers cannot be a single group. Because then they literally are Guard +1.

There's a reason why they worded that bit the way they did. GSC Brood Brothers were, RAW, able to issue Orders to units that Guard can't even Order(Ogryn/Bullgryn and Ratlings) or ignore requirements that Guard has to meet(Tempestus can't Order <Regiment> and <Regiment> can't Order Tempestus)...which was kinda ridiculous.

I wasn't talking about Brood Brother detachments from AM, I was talking about Cult units from the codex itself, vehicles that used to be regular fully-fledged GSC units until 8th shattered it into multiple mini-groups and made them into creed-less auxiliaries.

They have no orders and regiment bonuses, yet they cost the same as clearly superior AM mirrors.

There's nothing OP about Cult Sentinels, Cult LRs, and Cult Chimeras in GSC detachments getting GSC creeds and synergy as replacements for lost Orders and Regiments.

Fundamentally I don't believe that cost/performance need to be directly equivalent comparing one army's unit to another army's unit. Guard can have discounted infantry, that can be their thing as long as there are important aspects of the game they aren't so good at and/or other armies have "things" which empower them in the larger game about as much. The Firewarrior needs not be the same efficiency in wounds/shots as a Guardsman if other aspects of Tau make up for it. Knights can be somewhat undercosted for their stats but the lack of bodies is a serious impediment in primary objectives.
As it stands the game doesn't do this super well currently. Marines doing everything being one stand out issue. However, I think the direction indicated by these changes is the right one. By changing wound/damage values you can change effective targets quite a lot. 1 wound infantry can be a substantial advantage if people pack a bunch of expensive 2-damage Heavy Bolters in their lists for anti-infantry work- you're forcing them to waste a bunch of damage.

Ehhh...they didn't have Orders in the book, but they could still get Orders.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ehhh...they didn't have Orders in the book, but they could still get Orders.

And it was quickly removed in FAQ, as it was silly.

Don't know what to tell you then. Maybe having a whole other army's units in your army roster wasn't a great thing to do from the outset?

Custodes are in reasonable shape with smaller tables and D2 small arms, but I'd like to see the spear move to flat D2 to differentiate it more from the axe and give them a more reliable tool for getting through 2W squads.

Mechanicum...Shorter tables, offensive stat creep, less falling back and shooting, new scenario rules, and weaker Knights are all going to give them a hard time. Pretty much everything needs to be slightly tougher. Rules for some of the resin minis might help, too, Cortex-bots would give a tougher front-line and stronger melee units.

Extra Wounds and gun stat creep on my CSM/Thousand Sons are nice, but my armies are dual-purpose 40k/30k so they don't have the character-stack and three Daemon Princes that make for a competitive CSM army these days. I want to see GW do something for the vehicles instead of just buffing the guns other people are going to kill them with.

Deathwatch...They are Space Marines, but I tend to regard Mission Tactics as strictly worse than just having Lieutenants most of the time and they don't have most of the things that made Space Marines competitive in the new-supplement era (no Doctrines, no Vanguard units, the SIA/Bolter Drill problem, weaker stratagems, a crap named character...). 2W Veterans will help, but they're going to still just be worse if they don't get thrown some bones on unit access and stratagems.

As a shooting-only faction, baseline BS for T'au to go to 3+.

+1w on crisis-frame suits, +2w on larger suits.

Fusion to go to 24" with new Melta half range rules OR 18" RF 1 with new Melta half range rules.

Flamers to 12", Y'Vahra flamer to 12" or 14".

Entire Kroot range +1A. Increased save in cover.

Entire Kroot & vespid range to full plastic.

Plasma rifles to RF2.

Pulse weapons I have no idea.

Cadre fireblades to get weapon options.

Missile pods to Assault3 & D2.

Burst cannon to get additional hit on 6+.

SMS to ap-1.

Photon grenades to last until start of next battle round.

Rail weapons to current damage +1(rifles/Submunition), +2(HRR), +3(others). Rail gun to 2/2d6 shots.

Ion +1 damage.

Ethereals to get 4++ as standard.

Shapers to go to HQ with +1w & better aura.

+2w to devilfish chassis units.

Tidewall deepstrikeable.

Stormsurge anchor to +1bs if remained stationary.

Onager gauntlet standard equipment on commanders.

Hmm, that seems about right for 9th apparent power level.

Why would the Onager Gauntlet become standard?

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Not sure if it would be a buff, but I personally would love Stormtroopers for the regular Guard, maybe for an extra point or two per model or at the cost of Deep Strike. Basically, a way to fit Scions/Stormtroopers into regular Guard detachments and a way to get them to take orders from Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders.

Not sure how much it would actually help, but it's something.

Guard need nothing. They already managed to slip the points loop and stay at the lowest possible point cost despite being flatly better (including orders) than units than are up to double their point costs, and they'll get all the shiny new weapon upgrades on day 1 of the marine update.

People worried about the defensive upgrade of marines, I'm worried about the offensive update to already underpriced models.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why are you including Orders in this?

What do Officers bring to the table other than Orders? They're literally just Shouty Wizards at this point.

He doesn't have to 5ppm guard vrs 9PPM Kabalites, Guardians even FW would like a word.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible broken BS points that are CA2020.

Maybe stop pretending like those points actually matter right now?

Seriously, even if we were not in the middle of a frigging pandemic that has basically shuttered open gaming, there would be zero sympathy from me for anyone insisting on playing points only right now.

Seriously your argument is my unit being clearly undercosted doesnt matter becuase pandemic? Really that's your argument?

Kanluwen wrote:My "argument" is that if ever there were a time to not give a crap about point values as we transition into a new edition, it's when there's a pandemic.

Enjoy being on ignore in the future.

Where did all of this aggression come from? Dang, guys! Chill!


I wasn't (and still not) sure if that would be a buff or not, especially as I mentioned possibly increasing their points and/or removing Deep Strike.

Does anyone even know where Guard are at now? It's only been about a month (maybe less), I only know of about 5 games that had a Guard player. (All were losses for the Guard player(s), but 5 games is not a good sample size).

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would the Onager Gauntlet become standard?

Relic/unique gear gets promoted to generic gear occasionally in the Tau (the airbursting frag projector and the cyclic ion blaster were both commanders-only in the 4e book) to represent their rapid R&D cycle by comparison to the rest of the game. Promoting the Onager Gauntlet to generic would keep that pattern going and give the Tau a melee unit for these new smaller tables. (Personally I'd favour some way to let small battlesuits use their guns as melee weapons like the Dawn of War Tau Commander instead, but the Onager Gauntlet would accomplish the same thing and probably be more straightforward.)

rbstr wrote:
Fundamentally I don't believe that cost/performance need to be directly equivalent comparing one army's unit to another army's unit. Guard can have discounted infantry, that can be their thing as long as there are important aspects of the game they aren't so good at and/or other armies have "things" which empower them in the larger game about as much. The Firewarrior needs not be the same efficiency in wounds/shots as a Guardsman if other aspects of Tau make up for it. Knights can be somewhat undercosted for their stats but the lack of bodies is a serious impediment in primary objectives.
As it stands the game doesn't do this super well currently. Marines doing everything being one stand out issue. However, I think the direction indicated by these changes is the right one. By changing wound/damage values you can change effective targets quite a lot. 1 wound infantry can be a substantial advantage if people pack a bunch of expensive 2-damage Heavy Bolters in their lists for anti-infantry work- you're forcing them to waste a bunch of damage.

Expect unless GW is about to upend the wound chart those s5-6 D2/d3 weapons are weapons people were already packing were they could anyway. People rarely take infantry that can't take upgrades eg FW etc to do much more than stand on objectives and kill other obsec models trying to take said objectives ie troops.

Not to mention GW tried that points dont need to be balanced idea before and you know what happens people just don't take the units that loose against their idea targets. When they can they doubke down on the good units and you end up with dumb armies will the Eldar Flyer spam 7 Flying Hive Tyrants and a whole host of other idiotic situations because swapping one of those things for troops makes it harder to win games.

Arcanis161 wrote:
...Does anyone even know where Guard are at now? It's only been about a month (maybe less), I only know of about 5 games that had a Guard player. (All were losses for the Guard player(s), but 5 games is not a good sample size).

I've seen them on the table a couple of times and they've remained pretty strong; army builds haven't really changed, all the stuff that was good is still good.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would the Onager Gauntlet become standard?

Relic/unique gear gets promoted to generic gear occasionally in the Tau (the airbursting frag projector and the cyclic ion blaster were both commanders-only in the 4e book) to represent their rapid R&D cycle by comparison to the rest of the game. Promoting the Onager Gauntlet to generic would keep that pattern going and give the Tau a melee unit for these new smaller tables. (Personally I'd favour some way to let small battlesuits use their guns as melee weapons like the Dawn of War Tau Commander instead, but the Onager Gauntlet would accomplish the same thing and probably be more straightforward.)

See, I just read it as they wanted the Onager Gauntlet to become standard for Commanders period.

Personally, I feel like the larger Battlesuits could benefit from having some kind of 'defensive grenade launcher'/"flechette discharger" added to their profiles.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would the Onager Gauntlet become standard?

I love how your one query on my fairly comprehensive list is "omg, onager gauntlet, no wai!"

That one was mostly a joke suggestion, because onager as a relic is trash.

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would the Onager Gauntlet become standard?

I love how your one query on my fairly comprehensive list is "omg, onager gauntlet, no wai!"

That one was mostly a joke suggestion, because onager as a relic is trash.

They should make a squad with fusion blades instead, just to see the rage of the Tau-haters at the anime fan-ness of battlesuits with laser swords.

To be fair, that's the one that really just made me go "...why?"

Rail stuff I'm fairly happy with, provided the special bits from Greater Good stick around.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would the Onager Gauntlet become standard?

I love how your one query on my fairly comprehensive list is "omg, onager gauntlet, no wai!"

That one was mostly a joke suggestion, because onager as a relic is trash.

They should make a squad with fusion blades instead, just to see the rage of the Tau-haters at the anime fan-ness of battlesuits with laser swords.

Actually I'd make one change in removing the stupid can only make 2 attacks limitation.
Also rather than make it a special item just give it out to X8 series suits automatically when they take 2 or more fusions.

Also would be nice to get back to being the mobile shooting army instead of the hardest to kill army as the way to win games.

Ice_can wrote:
...Actually I'd make one change in removing the stupid can only make 2 attacks limitation.
Also rather than make it a special item just give it out to X8 series suits automatically when they take 2 or more fusions.

Also would be nice to get back to being the mobile shooting army instead of the hardest to kill army as the way to win games.

That could be the guns-as-melee-weapons mechanic! Write a melee-weapon profile for twin versions of all the guns! Fusion blades, plasma lance, flame projector...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would the Onager Gauntlet become standard?

Relic/unique gear gets promoted to generic gear occasionally in the Tau (the airbursting frag projector and the cyclic ion blaster were both commanders-only in the 4e book) to represent their rapid R&D cycle by comparison to the rest of the game. Promoting the Onager Gauntlet to generic would keep that pattern going and give the Tau a melee unit for these new smaller tables. (Personally I'd favour some way to let small battlesuits use their guns as melee weapons like the Dawn of War Tau Commander instead, but the Onager Gauntlet would accomplish the same thing and probably be more straightforward.)

See, I just read it as they wanted the Onager Gauntlet to become standard for Commanders period.

Personally, I feel like the larger Battlesuits could benefit from having some kind of 'defensive grenade launcher'/"flechette discharger" added to their profiles.

They're one per detachment (barring FSE, who are meant to be CQC specialists), so it's hardly spammable.

Given that larger battlesuits can already shoot in combat and the flechette launchers have been universally pointless (d6 S4 ap-0 D1 is just junk - especially when they're pistol, so preventing them using other weapons).

They're not going to give us universal RIFs either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
...Actually I'd make one change in removing the stupid can only make 2 attacks limitation.
Also rather than make it a special item just give it out to X8 series suits automatically when they take 2 or more fusions.

Also would be nice to get back to being the mobile shooting army instead of the hardest to kill army as the way to win games.

That could be the guns-as-melee-weapons mechanic! Write a melee-weapon profile for twin versions of all the guns! Fusion blades, plasma lance, flame projector...

Tbh, I did suggest just using the gun profiles but with the WS to hit rolls a while back, but people poo-pooed the idea for some reason... ;-)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
...Actually I'd make one change in removing the stupid can only make 2 attacks limitation.
Also rather than make it a special item just give it out to X8 series suits automatically when they take 2 or more fusions.

Also would be nice to get back to being the mobile shooting army instead of the hardest to kill army as the way to win games.

That could be the guns-as-melee-weapons mechanic! Write a melee-weapon profile for twin versions of all the guns! Fusion blades, plasma lance, flame projector...

The ironic thing is in one of the books about farsight they talk about esentially pointing flamers at another crisis suit and burning the Attackers off the suit in question.

Heck XV8 series suits are IRCC rated for exoatmosperic environments with the XV86 being specifically for Exo atmospheric engagements hence the oversized flight system, to allow jumping from ship to ship directly instead of via manta.

Ice_can wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
...Actually I'd make one change in removing the stupid can only make 2 attacks limitation.
Also rather than make it a special item just give it out to X8 series suits automatically when they take 2 or more fusions.

Also would be nice to get back to being the mobile shooting army instead of the hardest to kill army as the way to win games.

That could be the guns-as-melee-weapons mechanic! Write a melee-weapon profile for twin versions of all the guns! Fusion blades, plasma lance, flame projector...

The ironic thing is in one of the books about farsight they talk about esentially pointing flamers at another crisis suit and burning the Attackers off the suit in question.

Heck XV8 series suits are IRCC rated for exoatmosperic environments with the XV86 being specifically for Exo atmospheric engagements hence the oversized flight system, to allow jumping from ship to ship directly instead of via manta.

A Strategem to allow FPF (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_protective_fire) would be good.

For csm:

Give Dreadclaws and Kharybdis Assault Claws the loyalist drop pod rules for strategic reserves.

Let Chosen take special weapons on the entire squad instead of just the first five, give them the ability to infiltrate back, and make them a troops choice for the Legions (not renegades).

Give Raptors the Night Raptors stats from Horus Heresy. That means: Onslaught: D3 extra attacks on the charge and full selection from the melee weapons list.

Make Fellblades base cost 455 PPM to match the original points spread between them and Baneblades from the original 8th Indexes. That would make them 645 PPM with standard war gear. Tell me that would be broken. Adjust the other Hellforged super heavys similarly.