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Fly actually makes a big difference for transports, especially on the smaller board with greater terrain density. So that does count against the LR significantly.

 Argive wrote:
...Also terminators might be a thing as well as various first born units...

Eh. You could put your Terminators in an overpriced box, or you could get a no-risk free Deep Strike and use whatever charge buffs your Chapter has to get them into melee without risking anyone shooting them at all.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Fly actually makes a big difference for transports, especially on the smaller board with greater terrain density. So that does count against the LR significantly.

who's playing on a smaller board?

Anyone who plays competitively.

If you want to use and talk about what's good on the old board size that's fine, but in some cases it'll be quite different from what's good on the new board size.

That said, it isn't important in this case. LRs are not good on either size table.

My repulsor dies first turn, but luckily I have my trusty Lands Raider to take up the slack. As a matter of fact it hadn't been destroyed once in 8th, while my repulsor hasnt lived past T2....ever!

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...Also terminators might be a thing as well as various first born units...

Eh. You could put your Terminators in an overpriced box, or you could get a no-risk free Deep Strike and use whatever charge buffs your Chapter has to get them into melee without risking anyone shooting them at all.

You Can't DS onto objectives...

You can however hold an objective with the HUGE LR and then spill out your terminators to keep holding that objective.
And botht he LR and termies hey can all shoot while they holding that objective and counter charging/shooting anything trying to steal it.

The primary points scoring is probably the most significant part of the game in my opinion.

Obviously we dont know pts, doctrines or stratagems. But in theory they may well be usable.

 Argive wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...Also terminators might be a thing as well as various first born units...

Eh. You could put your Terminators in an overpriced box, or you could get a no-risk free Deep Strike and use whatever charge buffs your Chapter has to get them into melee without risking anyone shooting them at all.

You Can't DS onto objectives...

You can however hold an objective with the HUGE LR and then spill out your terminators to keep holding that objective.
And botht he LR and termies hey can all shoot while they holding that objective and counter charging/shooting anything trying to steal it.

The primary points scoring is probably the most significant part of the game in my opinion.

Obviously we dont know pts, doctrines or stratagems. But in theory they may well be usable.

pretty much this

 Argive wrote:

You Can't DS onto objectives...

Where does it say that ? I only know one matched play mission which has that restriction.

I think he just meant if the enemy is on it, you can't get close enough (though you can try to charge from DS obviously). One of the not-very-good base matched play missions has a gimmick that says you can't reinforce onto objectives, but it's just that one mission.

Breton wrote:

Someone else mentioned another issue it faces - it pays for transport and again for tank capability. Between it pulling double duty, being a huge points cost, any disruption to your transportation plan, and whatever bonus damage to unit inside.

Well, if you bring a 285 points unit you need to make use of all the abilties it has, not only its firepower. You need to make good use of its transport capacity, if you don't or you're not interested in it, the LR isn't a good choice. IMHO, considering the lists I usually field, 285 points for 40 anti infantry shots, 16 seats and more target saturation for my 3 razorbacks and gunship is a good deal.

If you play primaris a LR just makes no sense. There are no primaris in my collection, and never will be.

Breton wrote:

The Raven does have basically the same stats trading 1T and 2W for all the hard to hit aircraft bonuses and unfortunately an Aircraft slot. If you can finagle an aircraft slot, it's the better choice I'd say.

The Raven, assuming you're referring the Stormraven, is an excellent option. My faction doesn't have it, but if you have access to it I agree it's a more efficient choice than a LR. With SW I usually bring both the LR and the SW raven equivalent, which is more anti tank oriented than the SM one.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:


Eh. You could put your Terminators in an overpriced box, or you could get a no-risk free Deep Strike and use whatever charge buffs your Chapter has to get them into melee without risking anyone shooting them at all.

Termies aren't the best cargo for LR since they can deep strike for free. Wulfen are amazing candidates for taking a ride in LR though, as outflanking a full CC unit doesn't always work. 15-16 power armor dudes also good.

Having just added a vintage Land Raider to my army, I'm looking forward to seeing how it will fare on the tabletop.

Obviously it's only going to tag along for the bigger games, for smaller games I'll use my HB/las tarantulas and drop pods like always.

The LR needs its assault-vehicle-rule back in some form.

Its gotten better in 9th for sure but its nowhere worth its near 300ptscost currently.

 Argive wrote:
...You Can't DS onto objectives...

...Why not?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...You Can't DS onto objectives...

...Why not?

One mission, Four Pillars.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...Also terminators might be a thing as well as various first born units...

Eh. You could put your Terminators in an overpriced box, or you could get a no-risk free Deep Strike and use whatever charge buffs your Chapter has to get them into melee without risking anyone shooting them at all.

You would think so, but then you face some jerk with 3x5 Infiltrators zoning out the middle.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...Also terminators might be a thing as well as various first born units...

Eh. You could put your Terminators in an overpriced box, or you could get a no-risk free Deep Strike and use whatever charge buffs your Chapter has to get them into melee without risking anyone shooting them at all.

You would think so, but then you face some jerk with 3x5 Infiltrators zoning out the middle.

...So you Deep Strike 9" away and use a charge-distance buff.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...Also terminators might be a thing as well as various first born units...

Eh. You could put your Terminators in an overpriced box, or you could get a no-risk free Deep Strike and use whatever charge buffs your Chapter has to get them into melee without risking anyone shooting them at all.

You would think so, but then you face some jerk with 3x5 Infiltrators zoning out the middle.

...So you Deep Strike 9" away and use a charge-distance buff.

Infiltrators. You know, the guys with the 12" 'you no deploy here' bubble?

[edit]
Sorry, that came out unnecessarily snarky.
[/edit]

Yes i meant 4 pillar mission as well as screening units on objectives plus things like infilyyatots and other screning stuff. A unit of termies takes up a suprisingly large amount of space. This is more so on the smaller board.

Not saying LR will be the new meta or anything but I certainly see the potential considering fly isint really god level key word and primaris are no l9nger 2 w exlusive troops. Obviously this all depends on the new codex rules and pts. Maybe it will get the impulsor assult vehicle rule.. who knows.

Can't speak for you Corpse Worshippers but my Hellforged Achilles will definitely be getting dusted off once those new rules for multi-meltas drop. Eight S8, -4AP, D6 shots, and a mortal wound spitting LOS ignoring Soulburner Bombard on a T8, 2+, 4++, 19W chassis sounds pretty good. Especially with six of those soon to be 2W Chosen loaded up with plasma along for the ride.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Can't speak for you Corpse Worshippers but my Hellforged Achilles will definitely be getting dusted off once those new rules for multi-meltas drop. Eight S8, -4AP, D6 shots, and a mortal wound spitting LOS ignoring Soulburner Bombard on a T8, 2+, 4++, 19W chassis sounds pretty good. Especially with six of those soon to be 2W Chosen loaded up with plasma along for the ride.

yeah, this seems like it'll be the most efficient land raider for chaos. But god, thats gonna be one expensive target

The Newman wrote:
...Infiltrators. You know, the guys with the 12" 'you no deploy here' bubble?...

OH. Those guys. You have an entire turn 1 to wipe them off the table with the rest of your army, unless they've brought back turn-1 Deep Strike.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

OH. Those guys. You have an entire turn 1 to wipe them off the table with the rest of your army, unless they've brought back turn-1 Deep Strike.

If you're not on planet bowling ball, that's a far taller order than you think.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Can't speak for you Corpse Worshippers but my Hellforged Achilles will definitely be getting dusted off once those new rules for multi-meltas drop. Eight S8, -4AP, D6 shots, and a mortal wound spitting LOS ignoring Soulburner Bombard on a T8, 2+, 4++, 19W chassis sounds pretty good. Especially with six of those soon to be 2W Chosen loaded up with plasma along for the ride.

Mine isn't coming out of the box unless something happens to the 18W bar for Obscuring Terrain. I know it's got one LOS-ignoring gun but the fact that things you can't see can see you is kind of a problem for the Achilles.


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Sterling191 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

OH. Those guys. You have an entire turn 1 to wipe them off the table with the rest of your army, unless they've brought back turn-1 Deep Strike.

If you're not on planet bowling ball, that's a far taller order than you think.

I cannot tell you what's going to work in every mission, every table setup, and every matchup, no. You can construct a situation where Deep Striking would be useless and you really need the Land Raider, yes. I think those situations are very specific and not really worth doubling the cost of your unit by putting it in an overpriced box. You may disagree.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Can't speak for you Corpse Worshippers but my Hellforged Achilles will definitely be getting dusted off once those new rules for multi-meltas drop. Eight S8, -4AP, D6 shots, and a mortal wound spitting LOS ignoring Soulburner Bombard on a T8, 2+, 4++, 19W chassis sounds pretty good. Especially with six of those soon to be 2W Chosen loaded up with plasma along for the ride.

yeah, this seems like it'll be the most efficient land raider for chaos. But god, thats gonna be one expensive target

True, but tougher than a knight and only 15 PPM more than a Repulsive Executioner. And sooo much prettier. Especially after you've added the appropriate spikes and chains and gotten the blood stains on the treads just right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Mine isn't coming out of the box unless something happens to the 18W bar for Obscuring Terrain. I know it's got one LOS-ignoring gun but the fact that things you can't see can see you is kind of a problem for the Achilles.

Ugh, don't get me started on that stupid rule.

The little I hear from Youtube seems to think transports are going to be in for 9th edition. That said, I am not confident that Land Raiders are making a comeback. I think for my little meta (assuming it hasn't changed in the last 6 months) the Land Raider (or my Chaos Land Raider) could be frightening. Of course, my meta has las Predators being pretty good. So hardly a good litmus test for what is optimal and what isn't.

I can agree that toward the end of 8th, Deep Striking was getting trickier and trickier to pull off. My area was very good at screening out the parts of the table they didn't want their opponent to drop on to. Not to mention the race to the bottom unit point costs. Now for 9th edition, I suppose it all depends on your area desire to play on minimum table sizes or stay at 6'x4' as to whether Deep Strike is going more or less of an option for Deep Striking Terminators vs. Land Raider.

Me, I would very much like if all Transports allowed units to disembark after movement with some even allowing charging after disembarking. I think the Land Raider would be a prime candidate for that. I envision 9th edition tables having far more terrain than 8th making transport move distances not as appealing already. Not to mention, those giant metal bawkes have less space to maneuver. If I remember correctly, 9th ed mission often shave of a turn for each player meaning having units wait inside mobile bunkers a round is even less appealing.

So, I don't know. I would like them to be good, but I kinda doubt it.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The little I hear from Youtube seems to think transports are going to be in for 9th edition. That said, I am not confident that Land Raiders are making a comeback. I think for my little meta (assuming it hasn't changed in the last 6 months) the Land Raider (or my Chaos Land Raider) could be frightening. Of course, my meta has las Predators being pretty good. So hardly a good litmus test for what is optimal and what isn't.

I can agree that toward the end of 8th, Deep Striking was getting trickier and trickier to pull off. My area was very good at screening out the parts of the table they didn't want their opponent to drop on to. Not to mention the race to the bottom unit point costs. Now for 9th edition, I suppose it all depends on your area desire to play on minimum table sizes or stay at 6'x4' as to whether Deep Strike is going more or less of an option for Deep Striking Terminators vs. Land Raider.

Me, I would very much like if all Transports allowed units to disembark after movement with some even allowing charging after disembarking. I think the Land Raider would be a prime candidate for that. I envision 9th edition tables having far more terrain than 8th making transport move distances not as appealing already. Not to mention, those giant metal bawkes have less space to maneuver. If I remember correctly, 9th ed mission often shave of a turn for each player meaning having units wait inside mobile bunkers a round is even less appealing.

So, I don't know. I would like them to be good, but I kinda doubt it.

Having played plenty of games of 9th at this point, I can honestly tell you that allowing everyone to disembark after moving would more effectively break the game than reverting the Ironhands nerfs.

The problem is that while Land Raiders are still pretty crap, transports in general are VERY good in 9th and allowing all infantry to pull impulsor shenanigans would likely result in the average game ending bottom of 2 with both armies as steaming craters in the center of the board.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Ahh, but obscuring + positioning can mean LOS to target while avoiding the counter fire of its friends.

Unless the Land Raider in question is an Achilles.

Indeed. The only thing that can make a vehical over 250 point viable is a strong invune save. It basically does not exist without one. Min 5++ pref 4++. Executioner running at 385 without an invune save and 5 more wounds than a 130 point vindicator...come on GW...use brain.

I remember coming into 40k after playing DoW back on my lenovo PC, and thinking that LR's were these super-OP behemoths that could literally take down anything and never die. Now jump almost 20 years later and think, why does this even exist? It's kinda hilariously bad. For the cost you could do so much more.

LR's serve as great distraction carnifex and as mobile impassable terrain.

ERJAK wrote:
in 9th and allowing all infantry to pull impulsor shenanigans would likely result in the average game ending bottom of 2 with both armies as steaming craters in the center of the board.

You didn't do the BEST job of making that sound like a bad thing