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2020/09/02 15:35:47
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Breton wrote: The Forgeworld ones? You got me, I didn't specify in the base game. My Bad. I meant all the Land Raiders you'd find in the base materials you need to play the game like your codex.
If you had specified the base game, you'd be wrong anyways. The Forge World ones exist in the base game.
What you meant was your own houseruled 40k.
Why aren't they in the codex then? Oh yeah...they should be but aren't because their rules are written by other groups that want to sell models at 3x the price as plastic ones. Got it. It's okay to like forge world but don't claim they are base game. If all you did was shop at FLGS you'd never know forge world existed.
If I bring my FW to a FLGS, I think it is reasonable to expect them to be able to be used in a game. That's the definition of base game. And TBF, I care even less now about what's in a codex than I used to, since really basic things like "same guy, but on motorcycle" are in Legends now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 15:36:37
2020/09/02 15:41:28
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Why aren't they in the codex then? Oh yeah...they should be but aren't because their rules are written by other groups that want to sell models at 3x the price as plastic ones. Got it. It's okay to like forge world but don't claim they are base game. If all you did was shop at FLGS you'd never know forge world existed.
If I bring my FW to a FLGS, I think it is reasonable to expect them to be able to be used in a game. That's the definition of base game. And TBF, I care even less now about what's in a codex than I used to, since really basic things like "same guy, but on motorcycle" are in Legends now.
Webster's Dictionary wrote:
Definition of base (Entry 1 of 4)
3a: the fundamental part of something : GROUNDWORK, BASIS
An optional book from GW - like the campaign books - is not a part of the base game. Rulebook, codex. MAYBE FAQ's is the base game. An optional book from a partner company is definitely not part of the base game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 15:46:48
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2020/09/02 15:50:53
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Breton wrote: An optional book from GW - like the campaign books - is not a part of the base game. Rulebook, codex. MAYBE FAQ's is the base game. An optional book from a partner company is definitely not part of the base game.
Partner company? FW is as much GW as citadel is. Saying FW is a partner company is like saying Citadel is a partner company, which is obviously false. GW owns both 100%.
Would you consider Legends base game? Any of the Psychic Awakening books? Vigilus books? If not, then that's where our difference lies; I would be pretty upset if I used the Psychic Awakening rules to build my army, and you refused to play against it because it's not the base game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 15:51:26
2020/09/02 15:51:23
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Breton wrote: The Forgeworld ones? You got me, I didn't specify in the base game. My Bad. I meant all the Land Raiders you'd find in the base materials you need to play the game like your codex.
If you had specified the base game, you'd be wrong anyways. The Forge World ones exist in the base game.
What you meant was your own houseruled 40k.
Why aren't they in the codex then? Oh yeah...they should be but aren't because their rules are written by other groups that want to sell models at 3x the price as plastic ones. Got it. It's okay to like forge world but don't claim they are base game. If all you did was shop at FLGS you'd never know forge world existed.
If I bring my FW to a FLGS, I think it is reasonable to expect them to be able to be used in a game. That's the definition of base game. And TBF, I care even less now about what's in a codex than I used to, since really basic things like "same guy, but on motorcycle" are in Legends now.
If it's in the codex it is not legends. Pretty much legends is models they don't produce anymore. Ofc you can play with it - it's just not the basic game. The existence of a forge world model that does the job right or better does not mitigate the fact that bad codex units need to be fixed. Like seriously...All the land raiders need to be at Achilles level to even be considered being put on the table in casual games.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/02 15:52:39
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
2020/09/02 17:21:39
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store? Look I am not anti forge world - it will always be viewed with a different lens though because it is balanced differently.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 17:25:03
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/02 17:25:07
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store?
So anything that's web-order only isn't allowed in the game? Hell, anything not on the shelf isn't allowed?
Edit: Because I can order Forgeworld from a GW store. I can talk to the manager at my local GW and learn about FW models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 17:26:40
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/09/02 17:33:52
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Ah, yes, it has nothing to do with all that extra armour which cuts down on interior space. It's entirely because the model is made of resin instead of plastic. Good to know.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store? Look I am not anti forge world - it will always be viewed with a different lens though because it is balanced differently.
How exactly is it balanced differently? Gw has been doing all the points for fw units since CA2018, are you implying that they underprice fw units? Because my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade would like to know when it gets its free points buff.
2020/09/02 17:50:10
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
You can order webstore only stuff in a GW store. I do it all the time. You cant order forge world there. Not through the cashier anyways. They don't offer in store pick up for forge world in GW stores. Why is that? Are they actually competing products? Yeah...they are.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/02 17:51:42
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Xenomancers wrote: You can order webstore only stuff in a GW store. I do it all the time. You cant order forge world there. Not through the cashier anyways. They don't offer in store pick up for forge world in GW stores. Why is that? Are they actually competing products? Yeah...they are.
Yes you can, actually. My local GW is happy when I come in and order forge world, and they are happy to put their own store address and hold it for me. Next time, go in and ask if you can order a FW model there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 17:52:12
2020/09/02 17:52:04
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Ah, yes, it has nothing to do with all that extra armour which cuts down on interior space. It's entirely because the model is made of resin instead of plastic. Good to know.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store? Look I am not anti forge world - it will always be viewed with a different lens though because it is balanced differently.
How exactly is it balanced differently? Gw has been doing all the points for fw units since CA2018, are you implying that they underprice fw units? Because my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade would like to know when it gets its free points buff.
Its balanced differently because it has a different author and their products actually compete with each other. GW stores (actaully called warhammer stores now) will not sell forge world.
Xenomancers wrote: You can order webstore only stuff in a GW store. I do it all the time. You cant order forge world there. Not through the cashier anyways. They don't offer in store pick up for forge world in GW stores. Why is that? Are they actually competing products? Yeah...they are.
Yes you can, actually. My local GW is happy when I come in and order forge world, and they are happy to put their own store address and hold it for me. Next time, go in and ask if you can order a FW model there.
They are breaking their own policy then. I would keep that on the DL.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 17:52:37
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/02 17:53:22
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Xenomancers wrote: Its balanced differently because it has a different author and their products actually compete with each other. GW stores (actaully called warhammer stores now) will not sell forge world.
The different codexes have different authors. Are they also balanced differently? Maybe we should ban Space Marines, it was written by someone other than who wrote Orks.
GW Stores are happy to let me order Forge World - as happy as they are to let me order web-only GW products - at least in my local area. All 3 do.
I'd be surprised it's policy related considering they have a button on the store computer they can press that's a FW link - I certainly can't get that button on the "civilian" GW website.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 17:54:40
2020/09/02 17:53:35
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store?
So anything that's web-order only isn't allowed in the game?
Hell, anything not on the shelf isn't allowed?
Edit: Because I can order Forgeworld from a GW store. I can talk to the manager at my local GW and learn about FW models.
I'm sick of people claiming FW isnt part of the game, since 8th the rules have been written by the main studio so that argument holds zero water.
the only issue here in the states is that you can't just go buy/order it in a store(flgs or GW) and we get raked over hot coals with the moronic regional pricing.
I for one am fine with a once per game POTMS ability so save on 4+ irrespective of AP value.
2020/09/02 18:01:48
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Billagio wrote: How do you know his store is breaking policy and your store owner doesnt just want you to buy stuff from him?
Well because I would be buying forge world from him so it makes no sense why he'd lie to me. Okay I'll buy it myself...which I have done in the past and it's gone just like that.
It makes total sense why a manager at a struggling store would break the policy though. You probably wouldn't shop at his store if he didn't let you buy it there.
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store?
So anything that's web-order only isn't allowed in the game?
Hell, anything not on the shelf isn't allowed?
Edit: Because I can order Forgeworld from a GW store. I can talk to the manager at my local GW and learn about FW models.
I'm sick of people claiming FW isnt part of the game, since 8th the rules have been written by the main studio so that argument holds zero water.
the only issue here in the states is that you can't just go buy/order it in a store(flgs or GW) and we get raked over hot coals with the moronic regional pricing.
I for one am fine with a once per game POTMS ability so save on 4+ irrespective of AP value.
No one is claiming that. It is part of the game. It is not a basic part of the game though and it is not included in the general balancing of the game ether. It is always an afterthought and hence it will always be problematic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 18:03:20
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/02 18:12:29
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Billagio wrote: How do you know his store is breaking policy and your store owner doesnt just want you to buy stuff from him?
Well because I would be buying forge world from him so it makes no sense why he'd lie to me. Okay I'll buy it myself...which I have done in the past and it's gone just like that.
It makes total sense why a manager at a struggling store would break the policy though. You probably wouldn't shop at his store if he didn't let you buy it there.
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store?
So anything that's web-order only isn't allowed in the game?
Hell, anything not on the shelf isn't allowed?
Edit: Because I can order Forgeworld from a GW store. I can talk to the manager at my local GW and learn about FW models.
I'm sick of people claiming FW isnt part of the game, since 8th the rules have been written by the main studio so that argument holds zero water.
the only issue here in the states is that you can't just go buy/order it in a store(flgs or GW) and we get raked over hot coals with the moronic regional pricing.
I for one am fine with a once per game POTMS ability so save on 4+ irrespective of AP value.
No one is claiming that. It is part of the game. It is not a basic part of the game though and it is not included in the general balancing of the game ether. It is always an afterthought and hence it will always be problematic.
Xeno, you know what's the biggest problem in the game right now?
Space Marines. They're just all-around too good, in many different ways large and small. On the tournament scene, where everything is cutthroat and everyone optimizes as best they can, it might not be overwhelming, but casually, where you get two friends slapping down models and hoping to have a good time? That's where HUGE issues are.
Marines have tons of overlapping buffs for offense and defense, many of their units are very aggressively priced, and they're all-around too powerful relative to pretty much any other Dex.
Forgeworld is a minor issue (and one that's on GW to fix, not the playerbase) relative to the massive discrepancies present in the Marine book relative to others.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/09/02 18:15:11
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Granted, but it shows that everything with stat line similar to a Land Raider shouldn't just be given assault vehicle rules. The rules could be applied were they make sense, both in the case of the models design and rules balance.
I didn't say anything with a similar stat line. I said the Repulsor hulls, the Primaris equivalent to the Land Raider you might find in an Indomitus Founding Chapter they just fluffed. I saw somewhere 28% of tournament armies are Space Marines of one flavor or another. For argument's sake lets say that ratio carries over to non-tournaments too - that means if they only gave this to Land Raiders Most of 72% of all players(The Chaos Land Raiders would probably get it too), and some other portion of 28% who just play Primaris would lose their minds. Look at the people flipping out because Marines got an ability some other army already had. Now give them an ability no other army gets...
Obviously the rule would apply to other vehicles in other factions. Anything with the Open Topped rule would be a contender, as would anything that was previously an assault vehicle. Primaris would obviously have the Impulsor. The rule just wouldn't make sense for Repulsives.
@Xenos: If we make all Land Raiders the equivalent of the Achilles then what do you do with it? T11 with a 3++? And do you intend to increase their points accordingly and reduce their transport capacity to 6 like the Achilles as well?
The Achilles loses transport capacity due to having a thunderfire cannon in place of its twin front mount and gets it's 4++ and additional wounds because it's forge world. Land raiders having varied capacity is nothing new. I'm speaking to durability. The Achilles is actually durable. This is where all land raiders should be.
Ah, yes, it has nothing to do with all that extra armour which cuts down on interior space. It's entirely because the model is made of resin instead of plastic. Good to know.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm just happy that I can tell marine players not to use their supplements or any of the units in Indomitus if I just play the base game.
Thanks for correcting me guys, gonna go play against supplement-less marines now armed with this knowledge.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store? Look I am not anti forge world - it will always be viewed with a different lens though because it is balanced differently.
How exactly is it balanced differently? Gw has been doing all the points for fw units since CA2018, are you implying that they underprice fw units? Because my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade would like to know when it gets its free points buff.
Its balanced differently because it has a different author and their products actually compete with each other. GW stores (actaully called warhammer stores now) will not sell forge world.
The differing policies of various gw stores and flgs is irrelevant. Are you arguing that the fw section of every CA, which is gw's primary balancing document for the game, is written by different authors than the sections for the various codexes? And if fw has its own authors for its own section why do they give so many of their units such wildly exorbitant prices compared to the original Forge World Indexes which were written by the fw team? Gw has handled the balancing for all fw units since CA2018. Accept that fact.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 18:15:33
2020/09/02 18:34:49
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
The differing policies of various gw stores and flgs is irrelevant. Are you arguing that the fw section of every CA, which is gw's primary balancing document for the game, is written by different authors than the sections for the various codexes? And if fw has its own authors for its own section why do they give so many of their units such wildly exorbitant prices compared to the original Forge World Indexes which were written by the fw team? Gw has handled the balancing for all fw units since CA2018. Accept that fact.
but but but muh resin OP.
99% of FW's models is non competitive crap, with dreadnoughts being the one big exception. I just wish people stopped having the oldschool mentality that FW and GW are different. Let me play with cool toys without needing to warn you beforehand so you can power up your list because you think im cheesing by bringing a Dreadclaw or a Hellblade.
2020/09/02 18:36:13
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 18:36:51
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
The drill in admech or the Reaper for drukharis are the other FW models that are commonly taken in my area.
2020/09/02 18:41:00
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
The drill in admech or the Reaper for drukharis are the other FW models that are commonly taken in my area.
Interesting. Ive never actually heard of the Reaper before lol
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
Tyranid Malanthrope and possibly those Mucolid Spores. I haven't seen the spores in person but they seem to come up every now and again in posted lists/tactica.
Billagio wrote: How do you know his store is breaking policy and your store owner doesnt just want you to buy stuff from him?
Well because I would be buying forge world from him so it makes no sense why he'd lie to me. Okay I'll buy it myself...which I have done in the past and it's gone just like that.
It makes total sense why a manager at a struggling store would break the policy though. You probably wouldn't shop at his store if he didn't let you buy it there.
Ah, Policies at retail. How far you can deviate from policy is dictated by how much $ you're making. As they say, "Money talks".
But have you considered that all GW stores might not have the same ordering options?
I worked for a major retailer for 30 years. We had several classes of stores (broken down by sales volumes, rated AAA/AA/A/B/C/D, later simplified to just A-C). In that time the AAAs/AAs/As, often legitimately had more options than those beneath them.
So is it possible that your store isn't making the $ needed to unlock the FW option (either legit or by deviating from policy)?
2020/09/02 22:24:50
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Land Raider can be played with toughness 9 in your games, its called Might of Heroes /shrug
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Blood Angels can cast shield of sanguiniess on it for a 5 up invuln not too shabby.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A Land Raider Redeemer played aggressively was valid for 8th imo, deploy it hopefully behind cover, if your opponent gets first turn yeah you might get shot at, but on turn 1 you advance with it and pop smoke, hopefully you got might of heroes on it for toughness 9. Turn 2 TH/SS Termies come out and wreck a big target, redeemer is now in range to use those juicy flamestorm cannons at some elite infantry.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 22:38:20
2020/09/03 00:41:55
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
