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JWBS wrote:
You mentioned "Official support" in the BB thread too where you also referenced this tenuous conspiracy, and how unfortunate it would be to BB to lose this official support. What exactly is this official support that NAF blood bowl / the 40K tournament scene gets from GW that they can't do without? I'd be interested to know what the various scenes will be losing should they decide not to cave to this nefarious GW power grab.

The support, to me at least, is a unifying-ish rule set. Bb 2016 is very close to the living rule book. BB 2020 changes several things including breaking out a passing stat. That means players have to decide to play with one rule set or the other or even both. That splinters the already niche community, potentially making it harder to find opponents. GW could have just released the two new teams in a starter with 2016 rules and kept on rolling. But that’s cutting out quasi forcing current bb owners into buying the new rules in order to stay part of the presumptive official community.

Looking back on it now, the Kill Team starter is looking like a bundle of stuff which didn't sell all that well recently (Firewarriors, Reivers, Sector Mechanicus). The second edition of the box already signifies GW's stance on it ie. "low effort". If it were up to me, I would have put infiltrators/incursors and Tau pathfinder kits to the starter instead, but whatever..

I will expect the same effort level to continue going forward.. a new boxed set with badly selling terrain & two troop slot kits, a few books and that's it. I don't really mind this personally. I love Kill Team and to me its the distraction I need with my 40K proper. I got the spare kits and bits to build the teams, and I don't need a constant flow of new content for it, just give me a solid core game and datasheets for every faction and I'm good thx.

I dont vet why the KT rules are so disliked. To me they are my fave 40K rules distro yet. Simple and fast enough while still offering interesting tactical gameplay (Disclaimer: We play with core + elites and only use the 6 global tactics + specialist tactics)

If they do release a new KT starter and the terrain included isn't an expanded set of that wild west 40K terrain I'd consider it some sort of crime.

 tauist wrote:
Looking back on it now, the Kill Team starter is looking like a bundle of stuff which didn't sell all that well recently (Firewarriors, Reivers, Sector Mechanicus)...

Sector Mechanicus? Did that not sell well?

JWBS wrote:
If they do release a new KT starter and the terrain included isn't an expanded set of that wild west 40K terrain I'd consider it some sort of crime.

Unfortunately the Ryza Pattern ruins, which would include the Sector Fronteris Killzone stuff, is all but OOP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Looking back on it now, the Kill Team starter is looking like a bundle of stuff which didn't sell all that well recently (Firewarriors, Reivers, Sector Mechanicus)...

Sector Mechanicus? Did that not sell well?

Firewarriors kit probably sold well too.. when it was still relatively new. I'm talking about "recent" sales figures relevant to the launch date of the KT boxed set. I think people who are into buying terrain kits (like you and I) are a minority.

If I was running GW, I would want to take tighter control over how my product was being used in light of events like the mortifying 2018 London GT.

 Manchu wrote:
If I was running GW, I would want to take tighter control over how my product was being used in light of events like the mortifying 2018 London GT.

Fair point

 Manchu wrote:
If I was running GW, I would want to take tighter control over how my product was being used in light of events like the mortifying 2018 London GT.

I have no idea qhat you're talking about.

But now I kinda want to know ^^.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
If I was running GW, I would want to take tighter control over how my product was being used in light of events like the mortifying 2018 London GT.

I have no idea qhat you're talking about.

But now I kinda want to know ^^.

LINK

 Manchu wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
If I was running GW, I would want to take tighter control over how my product was being used in light of events like the mortifying 2018 London GT.

I have no idea qhat you're talking about.

But now I kinda want to know ^^.

LINK

Was just reading that right now.

...whoah. That's... blatant.

So this idea of having people who enter tournaments bring assembled and painted terrain along with their assembled and painted armies is pretty clever IMO and honestly it was about time that terrain stopped being considered “extra” when it is obvi an essential part of the game.

Well, clever it might be, but it's also a whole lot of an additional hassle, as you're basically doubling the amount stuff people need to carry to a tourney. If you're going to one in your own town/city it might not be that bigger of a problem... but it might be.

What we already have is the hassle of transporting unwieldy, delicate items and adding terrain means people will have to transport a bit more unwieldy, delicate items. It doesn’t amount to a difference in kind and not much of a difference in degree. Against this is the major pro of taking a HUGE amount of hassle away from TOs, who don’t always handle the responsibility well and TBH it probably should never have been considered their responsibility.

Yep i doubt that flies well with players. And players have ultimately final authority on what flies and what not. Requirement to buy hundreds pounds terrain for tournaments and haul along is　not likely to be accepted

(not to mention　that would also invalidate　gt20 pack right away)

tneva82 wrote:
Yep i doubt that flies well with players.

It'll depend on how open to abuse it is - a gunline player bringing a load of magic boxes to hide inside, for example.

I think you need to consider the people that don't have their own car for such games etc. Carrying multiple cases on public transport, ensuring it is packaged safely if you need to fly etc.

Anyone who's ever played in bands etc will tell you it is not easy or a desirable thing to court around big music instruments, and if it is guitars etc then peddles, sometimes amp heads etc. That's annoying and impracticle even if you have a car. It gets more annoying when you have multiple people, from the same band, with additional bands at shows etc when you have a load of equipment cases etc clogging up everywhere.

I think this is a case of absolutely the right intentions by GW but it has absolutely not considered the impact and logistics of it.

Also, and this is me being cynical... I wonder how much the tournament organisers influence had in this decision, are they going to charge less if the gamers are bringing their own terrain? I hope so. It seems a very 'Reece' decision...

Yes. Its difficult enough bringing your army to events. The idea people are going to bring wheelbarrows full of terrain seems... optimistic at best.

So what we've identified here is a need for more gamers to hit the gym to have the muscle to carry one more bag of terrain to events?

This is what plastic has done to us! Back in the days of METAL the average gamer would be far more muscled and ready to take on such a challenge - today the light plastic kits have made gamers weak! Sapped their strength and left them vulnerable!

 Overread wrote:
So what we've identified here is a need for more gamers to hit the gym to have the muscle to carry one more bag of terrain to events?

This is what plastic has done to us! Back in the days of METAL the average gamer would be far more muscled and ready to take on such a challenge - today the light plastic kits have made gamers weak! Sapped their strength and left them vulnerable!

it's not the mass it's the bulk. sure carrying around some terrain isn't a big deal if you're running a custodes army, but if you're running guard or orks you're proably already packing a large mini case already

If players are providing the terrain, perhaps tournaments should cost less to enter. That is a reasonable point. But relieving TOs from having to provide terrain lowers the threshold for being a TO. So who can be a TO is opened up, meaning there can be more tournaments and therefore more consumer choice about what to attend, which impacts pricing.

But players bringing tournament terrain isn’t just a benefit to GW and TOs. The tables will definitely look better under this regime. And spectacle is a big part of the enjoyment. For many, better looking tables will mean a better game experience (all else being equal).

This will also incentivize GW to make more and more vaired terrain kits. I am still shocked there is a already a SOB terrain kit!

The whole hobby, both in terms of publishers like GW and consumers, need to get over this strange idea that terrain is an afterthought.

No doubt this will create some short term irritation. But I think it will be very positive in a big picture sense.

 Manchu wrote:
The tables will definitely look better under this regime.

Uh? You believe players will bring greatly painted terrain, better looking than the TO terrain?

Yes I think they will. Just like their armies look better than if a TO was responsible for painting all of their armies.

I haven't played this game for many years and therefore haven't had to carry bags of miniatures around anywhere. I just paint minis and lately terrain too. Having said that, as a person, with eyes, and a brain, I can clearly see that transporting an army plus an adequate amount of terrain is very obviously going to be more difficult than transporting an army alone. Like maybe even exponentially so. You can tell due to having constructed and painted it all. In fact you can tell just by looking at it. I honestly don't know whether the people saying "It's gonna be as easy as carrying an army" are arguing in bad faith or if they're just completely oblivious. Neither option seems to make much sense.

Can't wait to see the snow boards with majestically painted desert terrain and/or tropical trees all over it

BTW, my specific issue with the idea is not the weight of carrying the plastic, it is the bulk of the carrying cases, even if they are light, they are big.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The tables will definitely look better under this regime.

Uh? You believe players will bring greatly painted terrain, better looking than the TO terrain?

I'd expect it to look better than that London GT tripe, at the very least...

 Manchu wrote:
If players are providing the terrain, perhaps tournaments should cost less to enter. That is a reasonable point. But relieving TOs from having to provide terrain lowers the threshold for being a TO. So who can be a TO is opened up, meaning there can be more tournaments and therefore more consumer choice about what to attend, which impacts pricing.

But players bringing tournament terrain isn’t just a benefit to GW and TOs. The tables will definitely look better under this regime. And spectacle is a big part of the enjoyment. For many, better looking tables will mean a better game experience (all else being equal).

This will also incentivize GW to make more and more vaired terrain kits. I am still shocked there is a already a SOB terrain kit!

The whole hobby, both in terms of publishers like GW and consumers, need to get over this strange idea that terrain is an afterthought.

No doubt this will create some short term irritation. But I think it will be very positive in a big picture sense.

Better for GW's wallet, no doubt. I really don't think TO will charge less for tournaments btw.

So in the end, it will cost us a lot of money to have the exact same thing than before. Your definition of "looking good" is very subjective, for example I dislike a lot GW's terrain. Tournaments like 2018 London GT are an exception, all the tournaments I did in my life had beautiful terrain with a lot of diversity. Now it will be a GW city in ruins on every board...

The only reason GW is doing this,(beside making more money ofc), is to shut down the many manufacturers that provide MDF terrain etc...They want the monopoly on everything, like they had a long time ago. That's why they sued a guy who called his novel "space marine", that's why they didn't update Bretonnians back in the days, because it was too easy for other manufacturers to copy their stuff due to no intellectual property, that's why they rename everyhing (Eldar = Aeldari, Dark Eldars = Drukhari, etc...). Like H.B.M.C said, they want to control everything. I'm not sure that is a "good thing" like you said in the long term for us customers

Many of us already have a game board full of terrains, so I won't buy some more just to go to a tournament, no way.

Money that you will need to spend :
- The book (likely 25-30 euros/dollars),
- 100-150 + euros/dollars/whatever is your currency of GW's terrain, because yeah, that's not 2-3 terrain you will need to buy, in 9th edition, there's 20 terrain on a 44*60 board, so you will need 10...
- More paints (depends of what you already have though),
- Another big suitcase to carry all of this.

That's likely 200-250 + euros/dollars, just to have the same thing than before (on top of having terrains that I don't like and don't use at home)? Sorry but I'll pass

Oh and I'm not a GW hater, on the contrary, I love their minis, love the lore, love the game, but that kind of things they do sometimes, I mean come on...^^

I don’t see a problem with GW wanting to have a coherent and complete brand experience. I think the amount of attention they have shown to producing terrain in the past couple of years has been phenomenal.

I truly hope the miniatures gaming hobby beyond GW follows their lead as far as considering terrain a necessary component of gaming.

I don't see a problem for THEM yep. I stated all the problems for us though, did you read my post? ^^

Terrain has always been a necessary component of the game...Or are you playing on a Golf's field? ^^
But that doesn't mean that we should have to buy GW's Terrain just to attend to a tournament, sorry.

Isn't the hobby expensive enough already? Or are you all rich, because I'm not :p

 Manchu wrote:
I don’t see a problem with GW wanting to have a coherent and complete brand experience. I think the amount of attention they have shown to producing terrain in the past couple of years has been phenomenal.

I truly hope the miniatures gaming hobby beyond GW follows their lead as far as considering terrain a necessary component of gaming.

If they organize everything I don't either. I do have a problem with them also wanting to control the brand experience on stuff that they are not organizing.

Want a full on brand experience, GW? Great! Organize all GTs and everything else yourself then.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Can't wait to see the snow boards with majestically painted desert terrain and/or tropical trees all over it

BTW, my specific issue with the idea is not the weight of carrying the plastic, it is the bulk of the carrying cases, even if they are light, they are big.

Reading my last post again, I've come across as very condescending. Apologies to anyone that noticed that. But yes, it's the volume that would be the problem. Sure if you're just chucking the extra volume in the back seat of your car it might not seem much at all, but I can imagine that carrying all that extra on public transport would be uncomfortable for everyone around, not just the person with the extra baggage. How much are we talking here? As much as comes in the KT main box, per person? That box is large. Yes, half of it is minis and rules, but once you've assembled the terrain it takes up at least as much space as that fairly large box.