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 Kanluwen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Maybe its aimed at smaller tournaments, like those at a store or a hall hired by some friends. A tournament with no entry fee and maybe only a dozen or two participants. It would make sense for everyone to contribute terrain, instead of the organiser (perhaps a single person) from needing gak-loads. Not every tournament is ITC or a GT.

So rather than tiny fee(which would also mean btw no prizes)you need to pay hundreds for terrain. I would need years to recoup cost of that.

If only there were bundles sold by GW that gave decent amounts of scenery for discounts!

ARGH!

Did not know that GW sells bundles of non-GW terrain

 kodos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Maybe its aimed at smaller tournaments, like those at a store or a hall hired by some friends. A tournament with no entry fee and maybe only a dozen or two participants. It would make sense for everyone to contribute terrain, instead of the organiser (perhaps a single person) from needing gak-loads. Not every tournament is ITC or a GT.

So rather than tiny fee(which would also mean btw no prizes)you need to pay hundreds for terrain. I would need years to recoup cost of that.

If only there were bundles sold by GW that gave decent amounts of scenery for discounts!

ARGH!

Did not know that GW sells bundles of non-GW terrain

I'd love to see anywhere that suggests the posts I replied to or my own imply non-GW terrain.

Constantly whining that "everything's so expensive that I can't ever afford GW items!" is garbage at this point. They literally just dropped this item:

It's $90 for a good chunk of scenery and a 22.4 inch by 30 inch double-sided gameboard.

Oh and then there's the "Command Edition" version of the starter box which includes the dang scenery.

You want non-GW scenery? Cool!
You don't like their prices? Bring it up with them.

tneva82 wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Maybe its aimed at smaller tournaments, like those at a store or a hall hired by some friends. A tournament with no entry fee and maybe only a dozen or two participants. It would make sense for everyone to contribute terrain, instead of the organiser (perhaps a single person) from needing gak-loads. Not every tournament is ITC or a GT.

So rather than tiny fee(which would also mean btw no prizes)you need to pay hundreds for terrain. I would need years to recoup cost of that.

Do people really play professionally on the village hall circuit? I doubt that very many people only play at tournaments too. So it's stuff you have already.

It's not like the GW stuff isn't modular enough that you can model for advantage (the wall of Martyrs already is!) anyway, so I expect there's some rules that either randomise deployment (location or orientation) somewhat or let your opponent specifically redeploy certain pieces.
Those seem like obvious strats and issues that would happen regardless of the origin of the terrain.

Alternatively you have set footprints and either <3", <5" 5"+ as height options, which with the opponent having some option to "unilaterally disagree" to the terrain deployment in some way seems like it's fix most glaring issues.

Maybe even a film set for 'Lord Bartholomew Bogue vs The Maleficent Eight', which largely features a facade town front along with a few card board cut outs of Crisis suits and a Riptide.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Maybe its aimed at smaller tournaments, like those at a store or a hall hired by some friends. A tournament with no entry fee and maybe only a dozen or two participants. It would make sense for everyone to contribute terrain, instead of the organiser (perhaps a single person) from needing gak-loads. Not every tournament is ITC or a GT.

So rather than tiny fee(which would also mean btw no prizes)you need to pay hundreds for terrain. I would need years to recoup cost of that.

If only there were bundles sold by GW that gave decent amounts of scenery for discounts!

ARGH!

Did not know that GW sells bundles of non-GW terrain

I'd love to see anywhere that suggests the posts I replied to or my own imply non-GW terrain.

Constantly whining that "everything's so expensive that I can't ever afford GW items!" is garbage at this point. They literally just dropped this item:

Spoiler:

It's $90 for a good chunk of scenery and a 22.4 inch by 30 inch double-sided gameboard.

Oh and then there's the "Command Edition" version of the starter box which includes the dang scenery.

You want non-GW scenery? Cool!
You don't like their prices? Bring it up with them.

Yeah, I can get way more terrain for $90 from various MDF places than the measly amount GW offers in that box and as a bonus I don't have to pay the "waste of card 'gameboard' going straight into the recycling" tax either. That's not as much of a deal as you think it is, Kan.

I genuinely don't look at MDF stuff, so can't comment. I'm not a huge fan of it so don't seek it out.

I've actually not had bad experiences using those gameboards for what it's worth. It's the same stuff as the Underworld boards from what I can tell, and those things have been solid for me.

Yeah, for the most part, I am also “over” MDF.

It's a dying market for sure.

Yup, such a dying market. That's why more and more constantly pop up on tables at stores across the country in the past few years.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Maybe its aimed at smaller tournaments, like those at a store or a hall hired by some friends. A tournament with no entry fee and maybe only a dozen or two participants. It would make sense for everyone to contribute terrain, instead of the organiser (perhaps a single person) from needing gak-loads. Not every tournament is ITC or a GT.

So rather than tiny fee(which would also mean btw no prizes)you need to pay hundreds for terrain. I would need years to recoup cost of that.

If only there were bundles sold by GW that gave decent amounts of scenery for discounts!

ARGH!

Did not know that GW sells bundles of non-GW terrain

I'd love to see anywhere that suggests the posts I replied to or my own imply non-GW terrain.
.

a decent amount of scenery means a playable table full and "discount" should mean less to pay

paying double the price for less terrain is never "a decent amount for discount"

as long as I can get a 72*48" table full of terrain for 100-150€ (plastic, not even talking about MDF) there is now why to ever consider a 100€ for a 20*30" "a decent amount"

if you like GW terrain because of its Gothic style, fine
but it will never be a decent amount for a good price not even for Kill Team

A few small bits of pipe that don’t block LOS and a couple of small ruins that probably don’t block it much isn’t very useful, and it isn’t very cheap by any yardstick. If you like it, that’s cool, but it’s not a great option for the price and won’t give you a good battle.

JWBS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Maybe its aimed at smaller tournaments, like those at a store or a hall hired by some friends. A tournament with no entry fee and maybe only a dozen or two participants. It would make sense for everyone to contribute terrain, instead of the organiser (perhaps a single person) from needing gak-loads. Not every tournament is ITC or a GT.

So rather than tiny fee(which would also mean btw no prizes)you need to pay hundreds for terrain. I would need years to recoup cost of that.

I could recoup hundreds in a few days : )

so you take dozens and dozens of tournaments in few days? I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaalllyyy doubt that.

small store tournaments don't have huge tournament fees anyway so to recoup hundreds in few days you would need to be taking lots of tournaments.

tneva82 wrote:

JWBS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Maybe its aimed at smaller tournaments, like those at a store or a hall hired by some friends. A tournament with no entry fee and maybe only a dozen or two participants. It would make sense for everyone to contribute terrain, instead of the organiser (perhaps a single person) from needing gak-loads. Not every tournament is ITC or a GT.

So rather than tiny fee(which would also mean btw no prizes)you need to pay hundreds for terrain. I would need years to recoup cost of that.

I could recoup hundreds in a few days : )

so you take dozens and dozens of tournaments in few days? I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaalllyyy doubt that.

small store tournaments don't have huge tournament fees anyway so to recoup hundreds in few days you would need to be taking lots of tournaments.

Well, I meant recoup through other means (a job), if you're looking to recoup the cost from prize money that seems a bit bizarre tbh. Do you view the rest of your hobby spending through this lense? Miniatures and travel and the rest of your expenses? I mean, most people are going to be able to afford a bus ticket and a box of Primaris every six months from 40k tourney winnings if this is the case aren't they? Unless I've vastly underestimated the amount of money floating around the 40k tourney scene. Is it possible to make a living at this?

But really it was just a joke (and I amused myself for a second, which is the most important thing).

the point was that it is cheaper to buy your own terrain for lower tournament fees and therefore bring people to events who had not the money to do it before

a table worth of GW terrain costs a lot and there is now way that it this is cheaper for those people than paying a standard fee (unless they become event players and visit 2-3 per month, but than entry fee is not a problem anyway)

using non-GW terrain is a different story but there is the question if the GW events will allow it

 kodos wrote:
using non-GW terrain is a different story but there is the question if the GW events will allow it

Which is precisely the purpose behind this book...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kodos wrote:
using non-GW terrain is a different story but there is the question if the GW events will allow it

Which is precisely the purpose behind this book...

Aren't the GW 'events' ones held at one of there major hubs.. like Warhammer World. Where all terrain is supplied.
Or is the assumption really now that the tournament circuit is going to be so closely controlled and monitored that only official GW terrain is allowed on official GW boards/mats?

Seems a little tinfoil hat

It's tin-foil-hat at least until GW starts sponsoring events in a big way. At which point its an acceptable trade-off. You get the official GW stamp; sponsoring support, marketing, etc... So your event gets far more attention and attendees and perhaps even more. Meanwhile you use GW brand boards, terrain and models which helps advertise and market GW products.

Both sides win.

Right now GW isn't really pushing that angle heavily so sure you can use GW brand terrain, but if you don't use it then there's really no issue.






I'd also note that some areas GW has to lean back on. It's like custom bases, GW can push hard that you only use GW bases, but it was never accepted by the community and now GW doesn't care in general. Same for paint schemes being "official schemes". That was pushed out a while back, but in general it was pushed back against.

GW can push for things, but its up to the community to accept and tolerate them. GW has never been like Apple or some other brands in totalitarian control. GW will TRY it, but if it gets enough pushback (sensible pushback that is) then GW might well learn back.

Esp for events not held on GW property by GW staff

At this point, complaining about the costs of GW terrain and its use (potentially need) to play in GW sanctioned events is about as useless as complaining about having to pay for GW models to have to use in the same event. GW took away model proxies a long time ago and might do the same with terrain proxies. But we can simply choose not to play or participate at that point if the costs are too high. However, I (and probably a lot of you) are too invested to make this an easy decision.

One last though...I like the look of a well painted GW army mixed in with a nicely painted set of GW terrain...hate the price...like the look.

 Overread wrote:
At which point its an acceptable trade-off.

I disagree completely.

Ever heard of the concept of a "company store"?

Could you elaborate?

 Manchu wrote:
Could you elaborate?

I, too, would like to know how GW wanting people to use their product is comparable to corrupt employers effectively forcing their employees into indentured servitude.

Apparently GW employees can only buy food and clothing from GW. Who knew?

We aren't even talking about GW employees either. It's 3rd party events getting sponsoring by GW and the only "demand" we are theorising at this stage is that along with GW models, they also might have to use (or have heavily encouraged to use) GW terrain features and boards.

I just got a bunch of 6x4 mats and a terrain set from gamemat.eu. Move over GW terrain/boards!

Manchu wrote:Could you elaborate?

EnTyme wrote:I, too, would like to know how GW wanting people to use their product is comparable to corrupt employers effectively forcing their employees into indentured servitude.

It's a really hyperbolic comparison, but mandating GW terrain for third-party events would be a means of pushing out third-party terrain manufacturers and creating a closed ecosystem, which I assume is what was meant by the 'company store' reference.

If GW were to give out full terrain sets for tournaments, with the caveat that only that GW terrain could be used, I don't think they'd have a hard time pitching that to organizers struggling to produce enough terrain on their own. Then, if you're going to play on tables with GW terrain at any event, you need to use GW terrain in your practice games. If everyone's buying GW terrain for practice games, then GW terrain becomes the de facto standard (even if it's technically only a tournament requirement- remember Rule of Three?) and third-party terrain starts to become unwelcome.

None of this would impact strictly casual clubs, but all the same, the tournament standard has a strong shaping effect on how the game is played. And while GW might not have won the fight regarding custom bases, I would say they pretty much did regarding third-party proxies, which seem to be often treated like ersatz substitutes and unacceptable in 'official' play. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I'd really hate for terrain to get the same treatment.

 catbarf wrote:

Manchu wrote:Could you elaborate?

EnTyme wrote:I, too, would like to know how GW wanting people to use their product is comparable to corrupt employers effectively forcing their employees into indentured servitude.

It's a really hyperbolic comparison, but mandating GW terrain for third-party events would be a means of pushing out third-party terrain manufacturers and creating a closed ecosystem, which I assume is what was meant by the 'company store' reference.

If GW were to give out full terrain sets for tournaments, with the caveat that only that GW terrain could be used, I don't think they'd have a hard time pitching that to organizers struggling to produce enough terrain on their own. Then, if you're going to play on tables with GW terrain at any event, you need to use GW terrain in your practice games. If everyone's buying GW terrain for practice games, then GW terrain becomes the de facto standard (even if it's technically only a tournament requirement- remember Rule of Three?) and third-party terrain starts to become unwelcome.

None of this would impact strictly casual clubs, but all the same, the tournament standard has a strong shaping effect on how the game is played. And while GW might not have won the fight regarding custom bases, I would say they pretty much did regarding third-party proxies, which seem to be often treated like ersatz substitutes and unacceptable in 'official' play. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I'd really hate for terrain to get the same treatment.

The problem is that this is self defeating. Tournaments would only buy the terrain if it was significantly cheaper than most alternatives (because GW plastic terrain requires FAR more setup than an MDF lemonade stand) so GW would likely have to give the terrain away entirely for free. Which means that a decent chunk of FLGSs in those areas would already have access to full boards of terrain, or the players would have access to the terrain secondhand should the TOs decide to liquidate a ton of it. Both options result in less sales, not more.

Then you have the copycat thing. If GW terrain silhouettes become the absolute tournament standard, third party producers are just going to change up their terrain so that the silhouette and footprint are the same, same thing that happened with the Void Shield Generator when it was 150$ and OP as balls.

This is more likely going to be a "major event" thing rather than your local scene club doing a tournament weekend. It's going to be big name tournaments that GW might well be sponsoring so the tournament might well get terrain on the cheap. It's advertising for GW and getting boons of their own. This might be staff attending; doing talks; authors from BL signing books; a sales booth; place in the WD magazine (before and after) and on the community website (before and after) etc... Heck get big enough and a twitch live stream on the GW stream channel.


Basically the event isn't just doing it because GW demands it, but because they get something out of it too.



Sure if GW terrain shapes become standard the 3rd parties will copy them ;but that just means GW is really pushing their own terrain and the customer base wants it/needs it. So it means GW will be getting good sales on it. Plus I'm sure the hobby and home scene will remain using cardboard, shoeboxes or 3rd party terrain features still.

Heck converting terrain might well be encouraged by GW creating a whole setup where instead of building from scratch you're modifying existing GW terrain.

Catbarf (unsurprisingly) understood what I was saying.

 Overread wrote:
Same for paint schemes being "official schemes".

What? They did that? I'm surprised, I don't remember any moment in the history of the game where the codex didn't explicitly allowed you to create custom space marines chapters with custom heraldry!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Same for paint schemes being "official schemes".

What? They did that? I'm surprised, I don't remember any moment in the history of the game where the codex didn't explicitly allowed you to create custom space marines chapters with custom heraldry!

I assume he's referring to this from the 2019 Grand Tournament Rules Pack:

If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect you to use the rules relevant to that scheme. For example, if you have painted your models as Salamanders, your army must have the Salamanders keyword. If you have created your own unique colour scheme, then you may give them any keyword that you wish.

 Overread wrote:
This is more likely going to be a "major event" thing rather than your local scene club doing a tournament weekend. It's going to be big name tournaments that GW might well be sponsoring so the tournament might well get terrain on the cheap. It's advertising for GW and getting boons of their own. This might be staff attending; doing talks; authors from BL signing books; a sales booth; place in the WD magazine (before and after) and on the community website (before and after) etc... Heck get big enough and a twitch live stream on the GW stream channel.


Basically the event isn't just doing it because GW demands it, but because they get something out of it too.



Sure if GW terrain shapes become standard the 3rd parties will copy them ;but that just means GW is really pushing their own terrain and the customer base wants it/needs it. So it means GW will be getting good sales on it. Plus I'm sure the hobby and home scene will remain using cardboard, shoeboxes or 3rd party terrain features still.

Heck converting terrain might well be encouraged by GW creating a whole setup where instead of building from scratch you're modifying existing GW terrain.

The thing is, if it's just the big events that get it, it will have negligible impact on the playerbase at large. No one goes out of their way to copy adepticon or nova or even ITC terrain setups at the local level. They just play with whatever terrain is available.

Sure, it's good advertisement for GW terrain if all the big events use it, but that's all it is. It's not like it suddenly becomes the standard. They'd get roughly the same result with sponsoring big name youtubers.