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Honestly, hordes are extremely strong in this edition due to the missions.

The rules to counter hordes like blast or coherency barely make up for that.

If you wanna play 200+ Ork boyz or Gaunts or so, give it a shot. Trust me, you'll win far more games than you expect.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Imagine a list with 30 missile launchers. Perfectly good against vehicle lists. Still gets 180 frag shots against hordes. Happy life of the generalist should be costed premium.

Instead of us imagining one why don't you write one? How many armies can realistically take a TAC list with 30 missile launchers in it? You need to pay for the units to take those weapons as well as the weapons themselves. I don't think SM can get anywhere near 30 without compromising the rest of the army. IG might be able to, but they're BS4 and fragile. You seem really hung up on what the worst case scenario could be for hordes without taking into account the need for armies to be balanced against all types of lists and targets. It might look like taking nothing but missile launchers gives you the best of both worlds, but that generalist niche has been their thing since 1st edition and they've rarely been the best choice in any army in all that time. They've also rarely been terrible. I don't think they're going to start being OP now.

Yeah, seriously. Run like, the most classic possible ork list, Goffs with Ghazghkull, Weirdboy with Warpath, Painboy, Waaagh Nob and a KFF mek and then just a ton of boyz. With a few units like meks/kommandos dedicated to dropping in to be annoying and score secondaries, you'll find it's a ridiculously strong list even against the meta big-bads. AP-2 Intercessors? Eh, I got T4, 5++ and 6+FNP, and I can spend CP to resurrect boyz squads.

The new missions force your opponent to come towards the middle or they just absolutely auto-lose. If they sit in their DZ and grind you out for 5 turns, the end of the game will be like "Welp, looks like the score is 85, and you scored....30 from "Hold 1 Objective" and "Kill Boyz" secondary. GG!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Honestly, hordes are extremely strong in this edition due to the missions.

The rules to counter hordes like blast or coherency barely make up for that.

If you wanna play 200+ Ork boyz or Gaunts or so, give it a shot. Trust me, you'll win far more games than you expect.

Also the number of times I have had a 10-man squad reduced down to like 4 models, fail morale and lose 1-2 guys, and those 2 dudes remaining secure an objective and they're both the special/heavy weapons from my squad.... *Chef's Kiss*

The problem is the pants on head stupid point adjustment, which heavily screws people who aren't like me and don't have huge collections, so they can't just be like "well, looks like Aberrants, Metamorphs, and Genestealers were priced by a chimp throwing its gak at a number chart on a wall, guess my big melee bomb is going to be Acolytes and the rest of the army is going to be mounted up Neophytes for the forseeable future!"

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Percentage increase would only make sense if there was a consensus that in the previous edition the units were balanced.

Previous -- 91 points of TFC killed 22 points of horms (4 to 5) -- 24%
Current -- 140 points of TFC kills 40 points of horms (6 to 7) -- 28%

So you can see a slight increase in effectiveness, but this occurs only at 11+. Any other targets weakens how useful the TFC has become. It still has other utility so it should still be popular.

The end result is nothing oppressive though. You could presume a CPT/LT nearby, but I don't expect that to be a workable strategy in this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

I can shoot at both and be good against both. And for this kind of versatility, blast weapons should be costed higher.

Imagine a list with 30 missile launchers. Perfectly good against vehicle lists. Still gets 180 frag shots against hordes. Happy life of the generalist should be costed premium.

Opportunity cost. You wouldn't be able to make a functional list with that level of weapon counts though. You could stack blast and guard against hordes, but then you would be potentially lacking weapons like MM, which are far more effective than a krak missile.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
130 models is 100% a horde.

130 models is nothing. on 5ppm units that's 650 pts. You still have 1350 pts to put in your list.

You know what 130 models is? 3 terma/horma units and 2 units of stealers. That's it. Baseline troops selection of a Tyranid army. Haven't even counted hive guard monsters and HQ at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


This misses a lot. If your opponent was nothing but hordes then, sure, you have "less" to worry about. But if there is a mix of hordes and big targets are you shooting BC at hormagaunts still?

I can shoot at both and be good against both. And for this kind of versatility, blast weapons should be costed higher.

Imagine a list with 30 missile launchers. Perfectly good against vehicle lists. Still gets 180 frag shots against hordes. Happy life of the generalist should be costed premium.

130 models is an horde in any way you want to cut it.

Also, don't try to crawl your way out of it. You said that the TFC was left equally efficent compared to 8th. You were shown that you were wrong. Point closed, let's move with the thread.

viable horde (gaurd) for this edition (also viable ANTI horde)


Viola. you got your 180 troops, which is, well, objective secured. Odds are high the enemy will try to "thin the ranks" and succeed, but he will have to work to thin all those ranks before you score whatever you want from him.
You can also do an surprising amount of damage to a target that isn't expecting that sort of stuff, when you lock old grudges on that pesky 6 aggressor squad, and proceed to shoot it with 27 missles, all but maybe 3 of them at +1 to hit (interlocked fields of fire, horde style) which is enouhg to bring you up to an average of 12 hits even while moving very quickly, or more like 20 hits if you are so nervous you really want the aggressors gone. Relic of lost cadia comes into play on turn 1, granting reroll 1's to hit and wound for your army when on the move. A few units will get movemovemove'd AND be able to shoot, with laurels of command to stack orders, so you can snag forward objectives and still plink away. Again, you don't have to WIN the armor duel phase of the game, you just cherry pick targets that threaten to kill lots of horde, and target those, leaving an enemy well suited to blowing up knights with his meltas and lascannons who is no longer a big threat to your horde.

I reckon its viable as much as anything in this crazy world of 9.alphatest

Spoletta wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
130 models is 100% a horde.

130 models is nothing. on 5ppm units that's 650 pts. You still have 1350 pts to put in your list.

You know what 130 models is? 3 terma/horma units and 2 units of stealers. That's it. Baseline troops selection of a Tyranid army. Haven't even counted hive guard monsters and HQ at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


This misses a lot. If your opponent was nothing but hordes then, sure, you have "less" to worry about. But if there is a mix of hordes and big targets are you shooting BC at hormagaunts still?

I can shoot at both and be good against both. And for this kind of versatility, blast weapons should be costed higher.

Imagine a list with 30 missile launchers. Perfectly good against vehicle lists. Still gets 180 frag shots against hordes. Happy life of the generalist should be costed premium.

130 models is an horde in any way you want to cut it.

Also, don't try to crawl your way out of it. You said that the TFC was left equally efficent compared to 8th. You were shown that you were wrong. Point closed, let's move with the thread.

In fact Daedalus showed that it actually is better when using the blast rule:

Previous -- 91 points of TFC killed 22 points of horms (4 to 5) -- 24%
Current -- 140 points of TFC kills 40 points of horms (6 to 7) -- 28%

Dukeofstuff wrote:
viable horde (gaurd) for this edition (also viable ANTI horde)

Spoiler:

creed
company commander
astropath
platoon commander
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher

company commander
psyker primaris
astropath
platoon commander
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher

company commander
psyker primaris
astropath
platoon commander
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher
10 gaurd with grenade and missle launcher

That leaves you 330 points to tailor the list (try to pick things that don't care a GREAT deal about command points) but I suggest something like
3 heavy weapon squads (armed with missle launchers)
3 scout sentinals (armed with missle launchers)
1 commisar (armed with your basic bolt pistol and powersword, cause that's maybe the first model I ever made).
Or, just as viably,
3 command squads with 4 grenade launcher each
3 special weapons squads with 3 melta each.
ministerium priest
5 powerswords among various troops or officers.

That last option, you can spring the meltas from board edge on turn 2, the first one, you get a brigadge + battalion so you end up with 14+2-3= 13 command points, just unheard of in 9th with a horde, and 9 missle launchers on the first turn (tended by creed himself) rerolling all misses? Is not too shabby as an opener.

Viola. you got your 180 troops, which is, well, objective secured. Odds are high the enemy will try to "thin the ranks" and succeed, but he will have to work to thin all those ranks before you score whatever you want from him.
You can also do an astonishing amount of damage to a target that isn't expecting that sort of stuff, when you lock old grudges on that pesky 6 aggressor squad, and proceed to shoot it with 27 missles, all but maybe 3 of them at +1 to hit (interlocked fields of fire, horde style) which is enouhg to bring you up to an average of 12 hits even while moving very quickly, or more like 20 hits if you are so nervous you really want the aggressors gone. Relic of lost cadia comes into play on turn 1, granting reroll 1's to hit and wound for your army when on the move. A few units will get movemovemove'd AND be able to shoot, with laurels of command to stack orders, so you can snag forward objectives and still plink away.

I reckon its viable as much as anything in this crazy world of 9.alphatest, and the soft whine of disappointed marine players (their muddled brains not understanding the damage they recieved) will probably make GW go back and raise gaurd infantry to six each, then seven, in a desperate bid to stop this sort of thing (you know, marines not winning by facerolling on the floor while saying "I are marinees, I wins."

Yep, as your opponent I would gladly go for Thin+Assassinate+Abhor in this game. I just kill the 3 Astropaths and I can score an easy 27 points.

27 missile launchers in the list means, assuming nothing moves and everything rerolls 1s (unrealistic, but whatever) means you can take down not quite 2 of my talos pain engines with a full volley. I've got like 12 of those in a competitive coven venomspam list, and I can kill 9 of those missile launchers ludicrously easily.

I have plenty of infantry, but it's all mounted in -1 to hit 5++ transports and it's all 5 man squads because of course it is, that costs me nothing.

It's a pretty decent list but you're signing yourself up for an opponent having a pretty easy time maxing their secondaries, so I hope they aren't able to keep you from scoring by blowing away the infantry squads you put on objectives. You also have to choose between your squads being effective in combat and where they need to be.

It is like... playing the mission totally turned math hammer on top of its head. No longer can a unit's value be abstracted into one number that was generated by calculating how many wounds it can do or take. Math hammer does not now, nor has it ever, scored objectives. And with the premium being placed on that during 9th edition... you can have the most tuned and killy army and still lose the game consistently.

It doesn't matter that the TFC is 4% more efficient at killing horm hordes... as those horm hordes are scoring probably in the neighborhood of 500% (exaggerated number) more mission points - which wins games far more often than punching 4% over your points cost.

I merely intended that list as an example of a viable (not perfect) horde off the top of my head. Its got some strengths and some weaknesses, and your list would probably just consume it, but some lists would have trouble getting at the psykers in the third row. So I reckon it viable, not perfect, but viable.

Slipspace wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Imagine a list with 30 missile launchers. Perfectly good against vehicle lists. Still gets 180 frag shots against hordes. Happy life of the generalist should be costed premium.

Instead of us imagining one why don't you write one? How many armies can realistically take a TAC list with 30 missile launchers in it? You need to pay for the units to take those weapons as well as the weapons themselves. I don't think SM can get anywhere near 30 without compromising the rest of the army. IG might be able to, but they're BS4 and fragile. You seem really hung up on what the worst case scenario could be for hordes without taking into account the need for armies to be balanced against all types of lists and targets. It might look like taking nothing but missile launchers gives you the best of both worlds, but that generalist niche has been their thing since 1st edition and they've rarely been the best choice in any army in all that time. They've also rarely been terrible. I don't think they're going to start being OP now.

Just for giggles I made the list for ya

Ultra Smurfs: Brigade. 2k points

HQ:

Captain
LT
LT

Troops:

5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher

Elites:

5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher

Fast Attack:

Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy Support:

Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers

Grand Total 29 Missile Launchers and 3 Typhoon Missile Launchers which are basically 2 ML each.

That is 35 Missiles a turn or 210 S4 frag shots a turn. With LTs nearby a # will be getting reroll 1s to wound (very important for horde clearance) while 1 captain is giving reroll 1s to hit. I also gave the Captain storm of fire WL trait so he can give -1 AP to some of those shots



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and that is 73 Infantry and 3 vehicles. So it has a fairly large footprint on the board and you can easily play objectives

SemperMortis wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Imagine a list with 30 missile launchers. Perfectly good against vehicle lists. Still gets 180 frag shots against hordes. Happy life of the generalist should be costed premium.

Instead of us imagining one why don't you write one? How many armies can realistically take a TAC list with 30 missile launchers in it? You need to pay for the units to take those weapons as well as the weapons themselves. I don't think SM can get anywhere near 30 without compromising the rest of the army. IG might be able to, but they're BS4 and fragile. You seem really hung up on what the worst case scenario could be for hordes without taking into account the need for armies to be balanced against all types of lists and targets. It might look like taking nothing but missile launchers gives you the best of both worlds, but that generalist niche has been their thing since 1st edition and they've rarely been the best choice in any army in all that time. They've also rarely been terrible. I don't think they're going to start being OP now.

Just for giggles I made the list for ya

Ultra Smurfs: Brigade. 2k points

HQ:

Captain
LT
LT

Troops:

5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher

Elites:

5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher

Fast Attack:

Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy Support:

Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers

Grand Total 29 Missile Launchers and 3 Typhoon Missile Launchers which are basically 2 ML each.

That is 35 Missiles a turn or 210 S4 frag shots a turn. With LTs nearby a # will be getting reroll 1s to wound (very important for horde clearance) while 1 captain is giving reroll 1s to hit. I also gave the Captain storm of fire WL trait so he can give -1 AP to some of those shots



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and that is 73 Infantry and 3 vehicles. So it has a fairly large footprint on the board and you can easily play objectives

A 30 Devilgaunt Squad gets 90 S4 shots, can get reroll 1s to wound natively and can use the Fire Twice strat for 180 total shots out of one squad. That's equal to 30 Frag Missiles getting 6 shots each.

I think the point leaks put that unit at 270. 1620 for 6 squads, with one Firing Twice is 630 S4 shots.

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Imagine a list with 30 missile launchers. Perfectly good against vehicle lists. Still gets 180 frag shots against hordes. Happy life of the generalist should be costed premium.

Instead of us imagining one why don't you write one? How many armies can realistically take a TAC list with 30 missile launchers in it? You need to pay for the units to take those weapons as well as the weapons themselves. I don't think SM can get anywhere near 30 without compromising the rest of the army. IG might be able to, but they're BS4 and fragile. You seem really hung up on what the worst case scenario could be for hordes without taking into account the need for armies to be balanced against all types of lists and targets. It might look like taking nothing but missile launchers gives you the best of both worlds, but that generalist niche has been their thing since 1st edition and they've rarely been the best choice in any army in all that time. They've also rarely been terrible. I don't think they're going to start being OP now.

Just for giggles I made the list for ya

Ultra Smurfs: Brigade. 2k points

HQ:

Captain
LT
LT

Troops:

5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 scouts w/sergeant and Missile Launcher

Elites:

5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher
5 Sternguard w/sergeant and Missile Launcher

Fast Attack:

Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy Support:

Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: Sergeant and 4 Missile Launchers

Grand Total 29 Missile Launchers and 3 Typhoon Missile Launchers which are basically 2 ML each.

That is 35 Missiles a turn or 210 S4 frag shots a turn. With LTs nearby a # will be getting reroll 1s to wound (very important for horde clearance) while 1 captain is giving reroll 1s to hit. I also gave the Captain storm of fire WL trait so he can give -1 AP to some of those shots



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and that is 73 Infantry and 3 vehicles. So it has a fairly large footprint on the board and you can easily play objectives

A 30 Devilgaunt Squad gets 90 S4 shots, can get reroll 1s to wound natively and can use the Fire Twice strat for 180 total shots out of one squad. That's equal to 30 Frag Missiles getting 6 shots each.

I think the point leaks put that unit at 270.

18" vs 48" and BS 4+ vs 3+ and captain rerolls, and T3 1W 6+ save vs marine statlines and shooting twice makes it basically a 540 pt unit and strips the shoot twice from your hive guard but yeh. Also the devilgaunts cannot kill tanks if need be the way 35 krak missiles can.

I guess Ro3 is not something you care about for 5 units of Devs?

30 Krak Missiles vs. T7 3+ at BS3+ net 31 wounds
630 S4 BS4+ vs. Same gets 34.9 wounds, haha.

T8 and 2+ really hurt the Devourer fire though.

 Insectum7 wrote:
30 Krak Missiles vs. T7 3+ at BS3+ net 31 wounds
630 S4 BS4+ vs. Same gets 34.9 wounds, haha.

T8 and 2+ really hurt the Devourer fire though.

Holy mother

I suspect even we don't die to the Blast, the new shiny assault intercessors will have a lot to say and do to our horde gak trying to score at the middle of the table. But let's see what happens.

Devilgaunts are also a horde unit that can be decimated turn 1 by those Frag missiles while you have to advance into the SM's guns to even get in range turn 2. (18' range vs 48' range) Not to mention the difference in BS and keep in mind a bunch of those missiles will be firing at 2+ to hit or a modified 3+ (reroll 1s). You also than have to deal with the 3+ saves and 2+ for marines in cover




Automatically Appended Next Post:
as far as RO3, I just threw it together on the fly didn't put much thought into it you can just change out 2 of those units to get a host of other SM options with similar functionality.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
It is like... playing the mission totally turned math hammer on top of its head. No longer can a unit's value be abstracted into one number that was generated by calculating how many wounds it can do or take. Math hammer does not now, nor has it ever, scored objectives. And with the premium being placed on that during 9th edition... you can have the most tuned and killy army and still lose the game consistently.

It doesn't matter that the TFC is 4% more efficient at killing horm hordes... as those horm hordes are scoring probably in the neighborhood of 500% (exaggerated number) more mission points - which wins games far more often than punching 4% over your points cost.

math hammer isn't everything, but it sure beats blindly guessing.

Its such a weird list I almost want to give it a go.

SemperMortis wrote:
Devilgaunts are also a horde unit that can be decimated turn 1 by those Frag missiles while you have to advance into the SM's guns to even get in range turn 2. (18' range vs 48' range) Not to mention the difference in BS and keep in mind a bunch of those missiles will be firing at 2+ to hit or a modified 3+ (reroll 1s). You also than have to deal with the 3+ saves and 2+ for marines in cover

I didn't say it was a good army, I just said it was a lot of S4 shots.

Btw as a Jorm player I can Deep Strike and get them to Ignore Cover too. I think there's some other bonus from Psychic Awakening too, but I don't recall what it is.

Deals 52 wounds to MEQs before any reroll bonuses though.

haha, speaking as a fellow horde player (orkz) if you can ever get that to happen i would be floored. I usually only get a fraction of my boyz in range to either shoot or swing in CC.

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Devilgaunts are also a horde unit that can be decimated turn 1 by those Frag missiles while you have to advance into the SM's guns to even get in range turn 2. (18' range vs 48' range) Not to mention the difference in BS and keep in mind a bunch of those missiles will be firing at 2+ to hit or a modified 3+ (reroll 1s). You also than have to deal with the 3+ saves and 2+ for marines in cover

I didn't say it was a good army, I just said it was a lot of S4 shots.

Btw as a Jorm player I can Deep Strike and get them to Ignore Cover too. I think there's some other bonus from Psychic Awakening too, but I don't recall what it is.

Deals 52 wounds to MEQs before any reroll bonuses though.

MFs marines can still auspex scan you before you speak your piece tho. Better keep them in units of 20 and put them in eggs?

I haven't played devilgants since 6th edition, don't make me start now

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Devilgaunts are also a horde unit that can be decimated turn 1 by those Frag missiles while you have to advance into the SM's guns to even get in range turn 2. (18' range vs 48' range) Not to mention the difference in BS and keep in mind a bunch of those missiles will be firing at 2+ to hit or a modified 3+ (reroll 1s). You also than have to deal with the 3+ saves and 2+ for marines in cover

I didn't say it was a good army, I just said it was a lot of S4 shots.

Btw as a Jorm player I can Deep Strike and get them to Ignore Cover too. I think there's some other bonus from Psychic Awakening too, but I don't recall what it is.

Deals 52 wounds to MEQs before any reroll bonuses though.

MFs marines can still auspex scan you before you speak your piece tho. Better keep them in units of 20 and put them in eggs?

I haven't played devilgants since 6th edition, don't make me start now

Auspex Scan only has a 12" range, but the Devourer has 18"

 Insectum7 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Devilgaunts are also a horde unit that can be decimated turn 1 by those Frag missiles while you have to advance into the SM's guns to even get in range turn 2. (18' range vs 48' range) Not to mention the difference in BS and keep in mind a bunch of those missiles will be firing at 2+ to hit or a modified 3+ (reroll 1s). You also than have to deal with the 3+ saves and 2+ for marines in cover

I didn't say it was a good army, I just said it was a lot of S4 shots.

Btw as a Jorm player I can Deep Strike and get them to Ignore Cover too. I think there's some other bonus from Psychic Awakening too, but I don't recall what it is.

Deals 52 wounds to MEQs before any reroll bonuses though.

MFs marines can still auspex scan you before you speak your piece tho. Better keep them in units of 20 and put them in eggs?

I haven't played devilgants since 6th edition, don't make me start now

Auspex Scan only has a 12" range, but the Devourer has 18"

Nice, all that's missing is what will be the background song that will start rocking the moment you begin putting 30 devils one by one while locking eye contact with your opponent.

the_scotsman wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html

That's good to see, those lists look pretty bad on paper, why you would take Gretchin in those lists I don't know, if they continue to show up then GW stops looking bad and I will commend them. My prediction is that it might just be part of early edition trying different things and seeing what sticks before a list with 0 Gretchin ends up being the dominant Ork list. It seems like Eradicators were banned from the event, but those aren't exactly anti-horde. At the very most the player who brought 20 Gretchin wasted 40 pts, all the doomers who said Gretchin are terrible will be proven wrong once we start seeing 60+ Gretchin do well again or see 10+ Gretchin being a mainstay unit in competitive.

Seabass wrote:
I don't really know that there was a huge hit to horde armies, honestly.

The introduction of blasts, the change to which models can fight in melee, the change to unit coherency for units with 6+ models, the ability to get out of a tri-point with a Stratagem.

The removal of Overwatch, the ability to lock units you're not on the same level as, reducing the size of the map and making Leadership less all or nothing has helped them. If no nerfs were made but all these buffs were made then horde units would either become much more expensive or undercosted, but the reduction in how many models can fight in particular seems like a quite unfun change.

SemperMortis wrote:
haha, speaking as a fellow horde player (orkz) if you can ever get that to happen i would be floored. I usually only get a fraction of my boyz in range to either shoot or swing in CC.

yeah well, popping them up out of tunnels is pretty key to their delivery. Fun though!

 Ordana wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
It is like... playing the mission totally turned math hammer on top of its head. No longer can a unit's value be abstracted into one number that was generated by calculating how many wounds it can do or take. Math hammer does not now, nor has it ever, scored objectives. And with the premium being placed on that during 9th edition... you can have the most tuned and killy army and still lose the game consistently.

It doesn't matter that the TFC is 4% more efficient at killing horm hordes... as those horm hordes are scoring probably in the neighborhood of 500% (exaggerated number) more mission points - which wins games far more often than punching 4% over your points cost.

math hammer isn't everything, but it sure beats blindly guessing.

That is true enough, but my point is hemming and hawing over a TFC being 4% more points efficient vs hormagaunts is totally disregarding the fact that the horde unit is winning the game while the TFC is "removing more models per shot than that horma-horde is worth"... while not doing anything other than... killing models.

People put an extreme amount of faith in the numbers on a game, and all the numbers do is help us understand performance in a vacuum. Those numbers skew wildly when put onto the table and they meet contact with the variables provided by the game (objectives, terrain modifiers, etc.). Sure, an IG Infantryman is worth WAY more than a gretchin... but a gretchin can hold objectives just as easily... they can score primary and secondary points the same. So what are you REALLY paying for with those units? Killing potential or winning potential? That's probably a BIG part of why many troops (especially cheapy ones) went up more than other units across the board, even in the face of enemies having MORE tools to deal with them. It seems to me that these units are getting hit because they make winning easier. Seems like they should be a bit more expensive, and/or have additional ways to deal with them, doesn't it?

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
It is like... playing the mission totally turned math hammer on top of its head. No longer can a unit's value be abstracted into one number that was generated by calculating how many wounds it can do or take. Math hammer does not now, nor has it ever, scored objectives. And with the premium being placed on that during 9th edition... you can have the most tuned and killy army and still lose the game consistently.

It doesn't matter that the TFC is 4% more efficient at killing horm hordes... as those horm hordes are scoring probably in the neighborhood of 500% (exaggerated number) more mission points - which wins games far more often than punching 4% over your points cost.

math hammer isn't everything, but it sure beats blindly guessing.

That is true enough, but my point is hemming and hawing over a TFC being 4% more points efficient vs hormagaunts is totally disregarding the fact that the horde unit is winning the game while the TFC is "removing more models per shot than that horma-horde is worth"... while not doing anything other than... killing models.

People put an extreme amount of faith in the numbers on a game, and all the numbers do is help us understand performance in a vacuum. Those numbers skew wildly when put onto the table and they meet contact with the variables provided by the game (objectives, terrain modifiers, etc.). Sure, an IG Infantryman is worth WAY more than a gretchin... but a gretchin can hold objectives just as easily... they can score primary and secondary points the same. So what are you REALLY paying for with those units? Killing potential or winning potential? That's probably a BIG part of why many troops (especially cheapy ones) went up more than other units across the board, even in the face of enemies having MORE tools to deal with them. It seems to me that these units are getting hit because they make winning easier. Seems like they should be a bit more expensive, and/or have additional ways to deal with them, doesn't it?

Just want to point out here: Durability IS scoring potential.

IG and Gretchin have equivalent ability to stand on objectives or start actions...but IG have more toughness, better leadership, better save, and better access to defensive buffs and stratagems that help them stick around.

The only thing a unit of Gretchin has over a unit of IG is the larger squad cap...but then we get into Conscripts, where that distinction just falls apart.

The other area where it falls apart is that if you're really talking about the minimum cost to put something on the table, you REALLY ought to be talking about the minimum cost to put a UNIT, not a MODEL on the table. there are many many UNITS - that can hold the same objective, do the same action - even within the ork codex that are much cheaper than 50pts, and offer additional capabilities. A Mek, for example, is fully 1/2 the point cost of a unit of Gretchin, can hold the same objective, perform the same action, and if you stand him next to several mek gunz he offers you the capability to repair (which he can do in addition to performing an Action since it isn't an aura and isn't an attack) and he's got character protection. And as a single model, he's also much easier to tuck somewhere totally out of line of sight. A minimum size unit of Kommandos is 45pts, and gains the ability to deep strike, opening up the possibility to perform additional actions and score additional secondaries that the gretchin, who will evaporate as soon as they walk into LOS, just have no prayer of achieving.

This "you're paying for scoring" is a garbage talking point on all the most egregiously overcosted units of 9th. Your'e not paying for scoring with gretchin. You're not paying for scoring with cultists. You're not paying for scoring with Eldar Guardians. You're not paying for scoring with Brimstones. You're not paying for scoring with Kabalite Warriors or wyches. There are many competing units within the exact same codexes that are infinitely better at the job of scoring than any of those units are - always cheaper, sometimes deep striking, sometimes character protected, sometimes single model multiwound that can hide, sometimes faster.

Theres no rationalization that explains 8pt boyz vs 5pt gretchins, besides what the designers themselves said was a major goal for 9th overall in one of the very first previews for 9th:

"We wanted to change up what was good and what was optimal, so people would have an opportunity to get those units out that maybe hadn't been seeing as much play over the last edition."

Purifying Tempest wrote:


That is true enough, but my point is hemming and hawing over a TFC being 4% more points efficient vs hormagaunts is totally disregarding the fact that the horde unit is winning the game while the TFC is "removing more models per shot than that horma-horde is worth"... while not doing anything other than... killing models.

People put an extreme amount of faith in the numbers on a game, and all the numbers do is help us understand performance in a vacuum. Those numbers skew wildly when put onto the table and they meet contact with the variables provided by the game (objectives, terrain modifiers, etc.). Sure, an IG Infantryman is worth WAY more than a gretchin... but a gretchin can hold objectives just as easily... they can score primary and secondary points the same. So what are you REALLY paying for with those units? Killing potential or winning potential? That's probably a BIG part of why many troops (especially cheapy ones) went up more than other units across the board, even in the face of enemies having MORE tools to deal with them. It seems to me that these units are getting hit because they make winning easier. Seems like they should be a bit more expensive, and/or have additional ways to deal with them, doesn't it?

Gotta address this. the TFC isn't 4% more efficient at killing horms now. It went from 24 to 28%, that is a 16.6% increase in efficiency. While not a huge amount, that is a bit sad considering how good the TFC's were last edition and how mediocre Horms were.

Onto my precious grotz. This isn't a valid argument when adjusting points for balance. "Well they are both really cheap and can sit on something so therefore they are balanced". A Grot serves 3 purposes in a game usually. 1: Area denial, 2: Objective holder and 3: Bullet sponge. With the rather drastic increase in price (66%) they are no longer efficient at doing any of those nor are they as good at it compared to a host of other Ork units now. It currently takes A bit more than 2 Bolter hits to guarantee 1 dead Ork Boy, its slightly more than 1 to kill a Grot (Wounding on 4s vs wounding on 2) So the boy is significantly more durable pt for pt than a Grot now, in 8th a Grot was less than 1/2 the price of a boy, now its more than half. So why bring grots when I can use a Boy for the exact same things and its more durable and can push out some damage? The only thing left that a grow can do is be a bullet sponge for a single unit a turn by using a stratagem...not really worth it anymore.Not to mention that Grotz don't get to benefit from a Klan Kulture (IG regiment).

A Guardsman can sit his happy butt on an objective all game long and plink away with his S3 24' lasgun, and can be equipped with special and heavy weapons so they can reach out and touch someone all game long, they are harder to wound and have a better armor save. In a pinch they can be given orders from a CC or PC to increase their damage potential. A grot can do none of that with his 12' pistol so the BS4+ on him is wasted because there is no way to upgrade the weapon to anything useful, nor give them a special weapon to man. If a Grot unit could upgrade to become an artillery battery that would be epic though

So arguing that a Grot is just as useful as a Guardsman is a bad argument.

Guardsmen have MMM, which wins games on its own.

There is simply no valid balance argument for a why a grot costs the same as a guardsmen. The argument isn't balanced-based, it's "GW doesn't like armies full of grots but it does like armies full of guardsmen." It's the same reason that a cultist costs *more* than a guardsmen while being worse in every way.