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I think it's likely that the horde nerfs were made in accordance with the upcoming changes to Space Marines, making them more elite. When a large part of the armies because an army with 2 wounds per model and a lower bodycount than before, this means that more people will take higher quality shots rather than higher quantity shots. And then hordes automatically become better, because little people have waveclearing weapons.

Of course whether this will be true or not won't be known until after the changes have rolled out. But I think looking at the meta of this weird in-between area between 9th and the space marine codices that was probably never supposed to have been is going to give wrong impressions.
   
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Mellowlicious wrote:
I think it's likely that the horde nerfs were made in accordance with the upcoming changes to Space Marines, making them more elite. When a large part of the armies because an army with 2 wounds per model and a lower bodycount than before, this means that more people will take higher quality shots rather than higher quantity shots. And then hordes automatically become better, because little people have waveclearing weapons.

Of course whether this will be true or not won't be known until after the changes have rolled out. But I think looking at the meta of this weird in-between area between 9th and the space marine codices that was probably never supposed to have been is going to give wrong impressions.


I still think the biggest reason is the shrinking tables. A 20 mm base has a 10mm radius, 10 mm is 0.39370079 inches, a round base with a 0.39370079inch radius is almost a half inch square of area. The Midsize table is 2640 square inches The ubiquitous deployment area ([44-24=]10x60) is 600 square inches - thats 1200 20mm bases packed end to end before terrain.

90 (guesstimate 1000 points) models on an Incursion board is 45 square inches of models, with a delpoyment zone of 300 square inches - about (1 in 6) 15 exactly%
120 models (which is probably where a horde army lands at 1250-1500) means one out of every 10 inches (10%) will be covered.
240 models almost assuredly would be enough points (2001+) to jump to 44x90 and 900 square inches of deployment zone getting you 1800 models end to end and cover (1 per 7.5) 13% of the deployment area
Now that's the low end as vehicles, characters and the like will have a larger base but your troops are going to be the bulk of your footprint.

Between cardboard Kill Team tabletops, scenery in the boxes, and minimal store hours they're trying to push the game onto your dining room table. I've seen an article about how much it costs a store to to pay the real estate rent on a gaming table. It's not cheap. Of course, not having customers because they can't find someone to play is kind of expensive too. On yet a third hand, the tables at your local strip mall where the kids from the card store play Magic are free if you don't mind getting some pad thai on the bottom of your kill team board. Luckily you can buy more.

Oh there's some balance to it too sure. I'd also expect to see 9th rework the points and/or abilities of these units even more. Grots might get a boost, Space Marines/Necrons/Elites might get even more expensive on a ratio comparable to the points per model horde are losing. They're going to do something to bring back POTMS if they're not killing off old marines sometime soon. I'd say this was a Beta test for 9th Ed codex point values allowing them to see what armies get made and how many models they have while they keep the ability testing in house.

And just to be even more wishy washy, I'll point out GW isn't always very good at this. We buy armies in points, and score objectives in model counts for several editions now and GW hasn't figured out that's a bad thing.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Breton wrote:


You think with 180 boyz you have room for Grots (troops), Defkoptas(expensive), and Meganobs(Expensive)? Didn't we just do this math? You know it's ok to just say maybe 4X was too extreme to use as a dividing line for hordes and 2.5+ is probably a more accurate ratio?


Kotpas are among the cheapest units in the codex. Actually they're exactly the cheapest unit in the codex after mini meks, and they've got plenty of use in order to score/deny points. Gretchins are a possible replacement for 1-2 mob of boyz to spare points for something else (like more characters or mek gunz), eventually they can be taken in addition of max boyz if the player wants an additional detachment, tipycally for a 4th or 5th HQ, that will be a patrol. Cheap and effective. Deep striking meganobz works for horde lists, we're talking about 200 points that can be spared somehow (an example: 2 HQs, 4x30 boyz, 2x30 gretchins, 5 meganobz, 6 Smasha gunz are 1898 points).

Math is simple. 180 boyz are already exactly 3x against a 60 bodies army, and even 3.5x+ compared to a 50 bodies one. Just with the basic troops. 2.5x would be referred to a mixed up list with both mechanized stuff and infantries, definitely not an horde. In my first post about the matter I've said that an horde should have 3x or even 4x the model count of a SM army, which means that 3x is already enough to consider the army an horde. 4x due to the fact than in older editions playing with more than 200 models against 50ish was not only possible, but also effective.

Maybe with the new SM codex things will change a little bit, we know that some units are going to get more wounds and higher points costs, so that 4x threshold would be easier to get again. Now I agree it's a bit hard to achieve, that's why I said pure hordes have become uncommon. In previous editions, includng 8th, it was way easier to achieve that 4x. Some competitive ork lists in 8th had 120-150 gretchins which were just 360-450 points.


 
   
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Also the math used to be perfect and that again is the point. 2 editions ago I could field 30 boyz for 180pts, now its 240pts for the same model count. A 33% increase in price over 2 editions. Grotz last edition were 3pts and no are 5pts. A 66% increase in 1 edition. And in 8th I could field a grot horde backed up 30-60 boyz for extremely cheap, we are talking 360pts for 120 grotz. and another 420pts for 60 boyz. 780pts for 180 models leaving you with plenty of space to pack in 30 lootas, 45 Kommandos etc etc.

So again, the point was that IT USED TO BE 3x to 4x the model count to be a horde, but now with the GW price changes its significantly less which means hordes are basically gone because they die way to fast and can't be spammed as much due to price increases.

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 Jidmah wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
If you don't want me to field 300 grots in an army, give grots better rules. Obviously I'm not expecting to win tournaments with 300 grots, 5 mek gunz, and 12 killa kanz, it's a fluff themed list that I run for fun. But it's frustrating to have to think "Hmm, maybe I should run these as Guard instead" because the rules are just THAT bad.

Like I'm sorry, but

Twice the range
twice the shots
+1WS
+2LD
+2Sv
+1T

REALLY should be worth SOMETHING.

If people are worried about MSU squads of them being too cheap, do AOS horde pricing - First 10 grots 5ppm, second 10 grots 3ppm, third 10 grots 2ppm. 100points for 30 vs 90pts for 30 in 8th, you pay 10% more for the better morale rule in 9th.


Utility is the key to solving such issues.
For example, you could just have gretchin get grot shields as a build-in rule. Suddenly they are worth more points despite being no more durable or killy.


If they had grot shields as a 100% always-on datasheet rule, for sure I'd consider them a 5pt unit. Every game. I'd use about 30 of them in every footbased ork army.

Honestly, it'd be a fantastic way to allow ork specialist units like nobz, manz, tankbustas, freebootas etc to actually be in foot lists.

....but they don't have that. So they aren't worth that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mellowlicious wrote:
I think it's likely that the horde nerfs were made in accordance with the upcoming changes to Space Marines, making them more elite. When a large part of the armies because an army with 2 wounds per model and a lower bodycount than before, this means that more people will take higher quality shots rather than higher quantity shots. And then hordes automatically become better, because little people have waveclearing weapons.

Of course whether this will be true or not won't be known until after the changes have rolled out. But I think looking at the meta of this weird in-between area between 9th and the space marine codices that was probably never supposed to have been is going to give wrong impressions.


Right, once space marine flamers have 12" range base we'll see tons more hordes than now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/31 19:51:08


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"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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the_scotsman wrote:


If they had grot shields as a 100% always-on datasheet rule, for sure I'd consider them a 5pt unit. Every game. I'd use about 30 of them in every footbased ork army.

Honestly, it'd be a fantastic way to allow ork specialist units like nobz, manz, tankbustas, freebootas etc to actually be in foot lists.

....but they don't have that. So they aren't worth that.



I think they could be ok with grots shields that works on 4s as a datasheet rule, that can be buffed to 2+ by stratagem.

In older editions they could provide 5+ to the units behind them, in 3rd I always fielded the full 30 man squad for that purpose.

GW clearly overestimated the value of Gretchins by looking at the most competitive ork lists in 8th. Since they were spammed in mass they assumed they were excellent. But they were spammed mostly to provide tons of CPs, a useless purpose in 9th edition. Their profile and 9th mechanics simply don't justify 5ppm gretchins outside pure tax units to fill up mandatory slots. They need to be cheaper or gain better abilities.

 
   
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I don't think GW actually looked at tournament results and thought "better nerf grotz" because how many ork lists with grots actually placed really well in comparison to the "Loyal 32" who didn't get hit with the nerf hammer.

If the BS reason for Grotz being maliciously assaulted with the nerf hammer is that they appeared in tournament lists a lot, than by that same logic Guardsmen should have been bumped to 10 or even 20pts a model because they owned the tournament scene for a year.

 Tomsug wrote:
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As explained before, the change to ork troops has nothing to do with balance.

GW simply wanted to shape the ork army to look more like they envision them (more toyz, less boyz) and for that reason nerfed the troops we kept bringing in masses.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
As explained before, the change to ork troops has nothing to do with balance.

GW simply wanted to shape the ork army to look more like they envision them (more toyz, less boyz) and for that reason nerfed the troops we kept bringing in masses.


I agree with you here Jid, I think Grotz and boyz got slapped down because GW wants more vehicles on the board and less infantry.

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I think there's a connection to 8th (and maybe even previous editions) most common lists though. Grots were spammed like never before and any ork player had lots of boyz anyway, GW simply wanted to force players to buy kits representing models that weren't that common on the board.

If they release a new boyz kit, which is rumored to happen, GW will push for massed boyz builds at some time.

I don't think they have a specific shape of the army in mind, they just want to push/nerf stuff in order to sell more. Especially the most recent kits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 18:17:57


 
   
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Yes, this get repeated a lot, but we are talking about the same company that accidentally made KFFs free and work in melee for half a year. A model that isn't even sold anymore.
They don't have enough of a grasp on their own game to make such adjustments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 18:21:08


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





SemperMortis wrote:
I don't think GW actually looked at tournament results and thought "better nerf grotz" because how many ork lists with grots actually placed really well in comparison to the "Loyal 32" who didn't get hit with the nerf hammer.

If the BS reason for Grotz being maliciously assaulted with the nerf hammer is that they appeared in tournament lists a lot, than by that same logic Guardsmen should have been bumped to 10 or even 20pts a model because they owned the tournament scene for a year.


Loyal 32 did get hit with the nerf hammer with the release of 9E. You no longer pack along a Loyal 32 for CP because well all start with X CP and then lose instead of gain CP to buy new detachments. That's not even the best argument to make. Loyal32, Grot, and other minimum cost CP farms went from all-but-free-CPs to now costing you CPs. The SM points tier armies can more or less make their entire army with little sacrifice of what they want in a single Batallion/Brigade so they're going to get the full 12 or so CP. "Horde" armies are going to lose CP faster than "elite" armies.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Being "horde" has little to no impact on how much your units cost.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Breton wrote:


Loyal 32 did get hit with the nerf hammer with the release of 9E.


It's true that loyal32 got hit by the new detachment mechanics but in practise armies that used to rely on them got a massive help. In fact now they don't even need to pay the loyal32 tax to dispose of a lot of CPs. People that fielded the loyal32 are now happy for the change.

Gretchins haven't been hit only by that (note that 8th orks lists could easily get 18-23 CPs, now only 12+1/turn) but also due to a massive increase in their points cost. Not to mention blast and coherency rules which hurt units that are designed to be blobs of screeners.

In a battallion, the most common detachment for orks, there's space for 180 gretchins, and yet you now tipycally see 0 of them, and up to 30 at most. There's basically no need of fielding loyal32 for SM anymore, but gretchins could still be very useful for orks if only appropriately priced.

SM players got double bonus: lots of CPs and no need of loyal32 tax. Orks players got double nerf: less CPs and a unit invalidated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 10:50:35


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:


(note that 8th orks lists could easily get 18-23 CPs,


SM players got double bonus: lots of CPs and no need of loyal32 tax. Orks players got double nerf: less CPs and a unit invalidated.


This was the point I just made. Padding Loyal 32's doesn't get you more CP's it costs you CPs. The Armies that frequently have to do multiple detachments are now being punished the same way armies that couldn't easily take multiple detachments were in the past its just going the other direction. Sadly GW knew they had a problem, they just didn't pay attention to what it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Being "horde" has little to no impact on how much your units cost.


It frequently has an impact on how many FOC choices you need to spend those points, and how many detachments you need to get that many FOC choices.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 11:09:38


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Breton wrote:
It frequently has an impact on how many FOC choices you need to spend those points, and how many detachments you need to get that many FOC choices.


Nonsense. Most horde units are more expensive than marine units fulfilling similar roles. The only reason to need more FoC slots is because you need multiple units with the same role.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 11:47:34


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Jidmah wrote:
Breton wrote:
It frequently has an impact on how many FOC choices you need to spend those points, and how many detachments you need to get that many FOC choices.


Nonsense. Most horde units are more expensive than marine units fulfilling similar roles. The only reason to need more FoC slots is because you need multiple units with the same role.


How many points is a Guard Infantry Squad from the Loyal 32? I put "horde" and "Elite" in quotes to differentiate between roughly two different price tiers. Guard are not going in the "elite" box right? I previously - in the same quoted post - also referred to these two rough pricing schemes as "minimum cost" and "SM Points Tier" to try and use something other than "horde" and "elite" terms with all the semantic quibbling it would entail. I wish I would have continued that.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






A player wishing to play ork boyz will pay ~250 for a unit walking on foot or ~145 for one riding a trukk. Lootas cost 300 points. Tank bustas are a unit that costs 315. Genestealers are 300. Horrors of Tzeench are 210. Plague Bearers are 270.
You can't claim with a straight face that all of these are "elite" rather than "horde".

The issue is you incorrectly labeling your boxes. What you meant to say is "armies with many cheap units" and "armies with few, but expensive units". Neither is directly connected to the terms horde and elite.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 12:24:17


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Jidmah wrote:
A player wishing to play ork boyz will pay ~250 for a unit walking on foot or ~145 for one riding a trukk. Lootas cost 300 points. Tank bustas are a unit that costs 315. Genestealers are 300. Horrors of Tzeench are 210. Plague Bearers are 270.
You can't claim with a straight face that all of these are "elite" rather than "horde".

The issue is you incorrectly labeling your boxes. What you meant to say is "armies with many cheap units" and "armies with few, but expensive units". Neither is directly connected to the terms horde and elite.


I have already freely admitted I regretted using Kleenex interchangably with facial tissue because I knew someone would be pedantic enough to complain Mountain Dew is both not Coke and not cola. You are absolutely correct.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Breton wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I don't think GW actually looked at tournament results and thought "better nerf grotz" because how many ork lists with grots actually placed really well in comparison to the "Loyal 32" who didn't get hit with the nerf hammer.

If the BS reason for Grotz being maliciously assaulted with the nerf hammer is that they appeared in tournament lists a lot, than by that same logic Guardsmen should have been bumped to 10 or even 20pts a model because they owned the tournament scene for a year.


Loyal 32 did get hit with the nerf hammer with the release of 9E. You no longer pack along a Loyal 32 for CP because well all start with X CP and then lose instead of gain CP to buy new detachments. That's not even the best argument to make. Loyal32, Grot, and other minimum cost CP farms went from all-but-free-CPs to now costing you CPs. The SM points tier armies can more or less make their entire army with little sacrifice of what they want in a single Batallion/Brigade so they're going to get the full 12 or so CP. "Horde" armies are going to lose CP faster than "elite" armies.


You missed the entire point. If the rationale is that Grotz received a 66% increase in price because they were in a lot of tournament lists, why didn't the Loyal 32 go up a similar 66%?

I never brought up CP batteries or anything similar because that wasn't what I was highlighting.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Stasis

I feel like they've made the decision that having a body on the field, even a grot, is worth 5 points. There's a minimum base cost for just taking up space.

I really think that guardsmen should have gone up, if only to 6 points, if Ork Boyz are still at 7.

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 Blndmage wrote:
I feel like they've made the decision that having a body on the field, even a grot, is worth 5 points. There's a minimum base cost for just taking up space.

I really think that guardsmen should have gone up, if only to 6 points, if Ork Boyz are still at 7.


A grot with Less Toughness, Strength, lower save, worse weapon, lower morale and no ability to benefit from Kultures is now the same price as a guardsmen because as you say, GW thinks 5pts is the minimum. And boyz have gone to 8ppm not 7 anymore


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:


You missed the entire point. If the rationale is that Grotz received a 66% increase in price because they were in a lot of tournament lists, why didn't the Loyal 32 go up a similar 66%?

I never brought up CP batteries or anything similar because that wasn't what I was highlighting.


No I got it, I just included the rest of the point. That they were in a lot of lists for cheap CP’s. You know, the same reason people were taking the loyal 32 in the comparison? To which I pointed out Loyal 32 did get hit with the nerf hammer. And I even pointed out they both got hit in a stupid way - repeating the same error in the opposite direction - linking CP in any way shape or form to list building beyond stratagems - that shows GW saw but didn’t understand the problem.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Breton wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


You missed the entire point. If the rationale is that Grotz received a 66% increase in price because they were in a lot of tournament lists, why didn't the Loyal 32 go up a similar 66%?

I never brought up CP batteries or anything similar because that wasn't what I was highlighting.


No I got it, I just included the rest of the point. That they were in a lot of lists for cheap CP’s. You know, the same reason people were taking the loyal 32 in the comparison? To which I pointed out Loyal 32 did get hit with the nerf hammer. And I even pointed out they both got hit in a stupid way - repeating the same error in the opposite direction - linking CP in any way shape or form to list building beyond stratagems - that shows GW saw but didn’t understand the problem.


Absolutely. But the way they did it now is a brand new level of dumbness. Especially because all the special detachments cost the same as a second battalion. And with special detachments I mean things like the vanguard and what have you that basically allow a player to pay less of a tax in troops. But then again, I don't really understand any of their logic with lots of things in general. What I do know however is that their rules decisions generally aren't aimed at selling more of specific things, just from looking at how random it all seems.

   
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 Dolnikan wrote:


Absolutely. But the way they did it now is a brand new level of dumbness.

It’s the same level. They made the exact same mistake, they just made it the other direction. They didn’t learn from the mistake, they didn’t even understand the mistake.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Breton wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:


Absolutely. But the way they did it now is a brand new level of dumbness.

It’s the same level. They made the exact same mistake, they just made it the other direction. They didn’t learn from the mistake, they didn’t even understand the mistake.

I am not sure what you guys are talking about what mistake?
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:


Absolutely. But the way they did it now is a brand new level of dumbness.

It’s the same level. They made the exact same mistake, they just made it the other direction. They didn’t learn from the mistake, they didn’t even understand the mistake.

I am not sure what you guys are talking about what mistake?


The detachment pricing.

What initially Battalions and brigades gave you comparatively too low benefits for fielding them due to the ammount of tax units, special detachments additonal cost now too few CP to not consider over tax heavier "core" detachments like brigades and battalions.


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 vict0988 wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:


Absolutely. But the way they did it now is a brand new level of dumbness.

It’s the same level. They made the exact same mistake, they just made it the other direction. They didn’t learn from the mistake, they didn’t even understand the mistake.

I am not sure what you guys are talking about what mistake?


In 8th edition they screwed up by making the more Dets you take give you more CPs to use.

Now the more Dets you take the fewer CPs you have to use.

Armies were taking the Loyal 32 style batallions to farm extra CP. Now if you need to take a second Det to fill more Elite/FA/HS - or spend more points because the elite/FA/HS you do take doesn't blow through points fast enough, it costs you CP. This is going to be exacerbated if the predictions of a return to MSU due to Blast rules is correct.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Danmark

Because GW has adopted a policy that is, if anything can threaten space marine players it must be nerfed.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
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Breton wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:


Absolutely. But the way they did it now is a brand new level of dumbness.

It’s the same level. They made the exact same mistake, they just made it the other direction. They didn’t learn from the mistake, they didn’t even understand the mistake.


Well, the old idea at least made some sort of sense where you would get more command points for larger detachments that take more units to fill. Of course, that completely underestimated the power of soup which is why lots of people are still upset about guard because cheap bodies are amazing to support elites, especially if they also give extra command points to help boost the elites even further.

Their new mistake is that they don't really understand what different kinds of detachments are worth to buy. In fact, it stuns me that for instance the big detachments cost more, which, punishes taking more troops over taking detachments that take more of the juicy stuff. I understand that they want to limit soup in some way, but this doesn't achieve that. This actually gives the reverse incentive where it's best to go more and more into points-expensive elites.

Incidentally, that is a bad financial idea because those units tend to cost less [£ $ €]/point than cheaper troops. I also don't think that it's actually meant to promote marines. Historically, they really haven't been good at developing their rules to make them best-sellers. That status is based on completely different things than their rules.

   
 
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