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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You know the problem with almost all of these? If it doesn't involve massed shots or attacks that are S4 or less loyalists can just negate them for 2CP.

I'm not sure the math works so well on that, actually. I have Devilgaunts, and every time I do the math on them they come out a little disappointing even though they can fire 90 S4 shots. Muti-damage comes out better because D2 is twice the kill and 2CP to reduce a .666 to a .5 is only a 25ish% reduction. Top that off with a generally better AP on the higher powered weapons and there's still plenty of merit to use them. The 2W really puts a damper on the S4 spam.
90 x.5 x .6 x .333 = 8.9w (the .6 is for gant capability of rerolling 1s to wound if they're a big squad) 240 points for the squad and they only remove four marine bodies.

16x .666 x .5 x .83 x2 = 8.84w (eight overcharged plasma guns still do the work of 30 Devourers when the Strat is played)

Plus, you can bait the Strat out on one unit and then blaze away at another, in which case those plasma shots get a lot more output.

Good point. I've done that before. I still hate that strategem though. It's kind of annoying to have a squad of intercessors magically become T14 when my Contemptor is trying to hack them into pieces.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You know the problem with almost all of these? If it doesn't involve massed shots or attacks that are S4 or less loyalists can just negate them for 2CP.

I'm not sure the math works so well on that, actually. I have Devilgaunts, and every time I do the math on them they come out a little disappointing even though they can fire 90 S4 shots. Muti-damage comes out better because D2 is twice the kill and 2CP to reduce a .666 to a .5 is only a 25ish% reduction. Top that off with a generally better AP on the higher powered weapons and there's still plenty of merit to use them. The 2W really puts a damper on the S4 spam.
90 x.5 x .6 x .333 = 8.9w (the .6 is for gant capability of rerolling 1s to wound if they're a big squad) 240 points for the squad and they only remove four marine bodies.

16x .666 x .5 x .83 x2 = 8.84w (eight overcharged plasma guns still do the work of 30 Devourers when the Strat is played)

Plus, you can bait the Strat out on one unit and then blaze away at another, in which case those plasma shots get a lot more output.

Good point. I've done that before. I still hate that strategem though. It's kind of annoying to have a squad of intercessors magically become T14 when my Contemptor is trying to hack them into pieces.

Ahh, yeah. In CC that'd be waaaay more irritating since you're usually 100% committed to the combat. With shooting it's easy to bait it out with one unit and then fire at something else. Th only way to do that in combat is if you have multiple combats with multiple juicy targets and in my experience that's often not the case.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You know the problem with almost all of these? If it doesn't involve massed shots or attacks that are S4 or less loyalists can just negate them for 2CP.

That's not how I remember the Stratagem working, it's also not really worth it on a unit of Intercessors, nor on the amazing reborn firstborn.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You know the problem with almost all of these? If it doesn't involve massed shots or attacks that are S4 or less loyalists can just negate them for 2CP.

That's not how I remember the Stratagem working, it's also not really worth it on a unit of Intercessors, nor on the amazing reborn firstborn.

I could see it being very useful for objective holding purposes.

SemperMortis wrote:
Meganobz: 120pts for 12 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 2s with 2dmg, if you can get them into close combat they can kill 5 Marines on average, but good luck getting them there intact, Movement is 4. So either Teleport them or you need a transport.

At this point I am going to stop because its a bit silly. The top 5, the best pt for pt Marine Killer is Meganobz who suffer from the fact that they are one of the slowest units in the game and when caught in the open die to the plethora of heavy weapons aimed at them, mostly because they lack any invuln save.

MANz are a great unit right now though, and they actually do a really good job at killing marines. It's probably one of the few units that deserves to be on that list.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Meganobz: 120pts for 12 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 2s with 2dmg, if you can get them into close combat they can kill 5 Marines on average, but good luck getting them there intact, Movement is 4. So either Teleport them or you need a transport.

At this point I am going to stop because its a bit silly. The top 5, the best pt for pt Marine Killer is Meganobz who suffer from the fact that they are one of the slowest units in the game and when caught in the open die to the plethora of heavy weapons aimed at them, mostly because they lack any invuln save.

MANz are a great unit right now though, and they actually do a really good job at killing marines. It's probably one of the few units that deserves to be on that list.

3 Manz = 120pts, if you teleport/da jump them, they have a less than 50% chance of getting into combat, if they fail they are dead. You won't be hitting Devestators or other elite troops, you will be hitting speed bump troops most likely. This costs either another unit (Weirdboy) or CP to do. if you drive them, its another 60+pts for a trukk. Assuming they can get into combat, they will kill 5 Marines on average as mentioned. They will then die the following turn. I can't remember what the new SM price is going to be but currently thats only 75pts.

I am not saying they are bad at killing beakies, but they aren't incredible reliable thanks to their slow speed and requirement to have another means of movement, either Da Jump, Teleporta or a transport and honestly, the few games of 9th i have played, especially against beakies....trukkz do not last and a 135pt investment for a naked Battlewagon is just too much.

Semper, your info seems a bit outdated.

If you deep strike MANz, you are running them as Evil Suns, so the chance of making the charge is rather high. Speed bumps are also marines, when they soup they lose their doctrines.
The other option is putting them in a forktress and just drive them to where you need them.

And no, they don't die the following turn unless a large number of units is shooting them - which means they are not shooting the buggies, bommers, mek guns and walkers that should be making up the rest of your army.

They are one of the best units for taking and holding objectives, and a marine player is pretty like to put marines on objectives.

 Jidmah wrote:
Semper, your info seems a bit outdated.

If you deep strike MANz, you are running them as Evil Suns, so the chance of making the charge is rather high. Speed bumps are also marines, when they soup they lose their doctrines.
The other option is putting them in a forktress and just drive them to where you need them.

And no, they don't die the following turn unless a large number of units is shooting them - which means they are not shooting the buggies, bommers, mek guns and walkers that should be making up the rest of your army.

They are one of the best units for taking and holding objectives, and a marine player is pretty like to put marines on objectives.

It has been awhile (Thanks COVID) what is the likelihood of a successful charge with MANZ as evil sunz? 60-70%? either way, how are they not dead against a Marine list the following turn? If the unit survives it falls back and gets hammered with a plethora of -AP weapons. Hell the Eradicators will just pop them , and make back their points in doing so mind you.

True they can serve as a distraction unit though. I just don't like throwing away 120pts just to kill a handful of tac marines and draw fire.

I’m sorry, but what more can you expect from 120 points?

 alextroy wrote:
I’m sorry, but what more can you expect from 120 points?

Glad you asked. SM's get Eradicators

I think we can safely compare those two:

Both have 3 wounds a model, so T5 3+ Sv versus T4 2+ Sv is a wash against most weapons
6 Melta shots vs 12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD means one kills vehicle/monsters/heavy infantry pretty well while the other is a bit better against hordes.
9 S 5 with Power Claws is way better than 7 (plus Shock Assault) close combat attacks

So head-to-head Eradicators will beat MANs in shooting and MANs will crush Eradicators in close combat. Otherwise, it is a matter of target and if you can get into close combat.

So I ask again, what do you expect from 120 points?

 alextroy wrote:
I think we can safely compare those two:

Both have 3 wounds a model, so T5 3+ Sv versus T4 2+ Sv is a wash against most weapons
6 Melta shots vs 12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD means one kills vehicle/monsters/heavy infantry pretty well while the other is a bit better against hordes.
9 S 5 with Power Claws is way better than 7 (plus Shock Assault) close combat attacks

So head-to-head Eradicators will beat MANs in shooting and MANs will crush Eradicators in close combat. Otherwise, it is a matter of target and if you can get into close combat.

So I ask again, what do you expect from 120 points?

I haven't played against Orks in too long, how does Dakka Dakka Dakka work? Is it a Strat?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think we can safely compare those two:

Both have 3 wounds a model, so T5 3+ Sv versus T4 2+ Sv is a wash against most weapons
6 Melta shots vs 12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD means one kills vehicle/monsters/heavy infantry pretty well while the other is a bit better against hordes.
9 S 5 with Power Claws is way better than 7 (plus Shock Assault) close combat attacks

So head-to-head Eradicators will beat MANs in shooting and MANs will crush Eradicators in close combat. Otherwise, it is a matter of target and if you can get into close combat.

So I ask again, what do you expect from 120 points?

I haven't played against Orks in too long, how does Dakka Dakka Dakka work? Is it a Strat?

6s always hit, and any natural 6 to-hit generates an extra shot with the same weapon.

There's a straight to make it a natural 5+ instead of just 6s.

 alextroy wrote:

6 Melta shots vs 12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD means one kills vehicle/monsters/heavy infantry pretty well while the other is a bit better against hordes.

12 kustom shootas with DDD means an average of 4 or 5 hits at S4 ap-, that will wound on 3s or 4s and allow armor saves. 6 meltas at BS3+ are 4 hits that would wound on 2s and negate any save, they are definitely better against hordes. And I'm not even counting re-rolls, which are easy to get for SM, while orks don't have any.

People sometimes forget that DDD is significant on high S high AP high D weapons, almost irrelevant on sluggas/shootas. 30 shootaboyz with DDD gain a gran total of 3 additional hits S4 ap-, rolling 70 dice in total.

It's also worth mentioning that a shooting unit will fire up to 5 times in a game, and safely from turn 1 while a CC oriented one will actually fight 1-2 turns per game and cannot cause damage in turn 1 tipycally. You can screen a charger, you can't screen a shooter.

 alextroy wrote:
I think we can safely compare those two:

Both have 3 wounds a model, so T5 3+ Sv versus T4 2+ Sv is a wash against most weapons
6 Melta shots vs 12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD means one kills vehicle/monsters/heavy infantry pretty well while the other is a bit better against hordes.
9 S 5 with Power Claws is way better than 7 (plus Shock Assault) close combat attacks

So head-to-head Eradicators will beat MANs in shooting and MANs will crush Eradicators in close combat. Otherwise, it is a matter of target and if you can get into close combat.

So I ask again, what do you expect from 120 points?

12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD ends up with 4.6 hits, against T4 that is 2.3 wounds which allows armor save, so against those Space Marines that is .77ish wounds on a Marine. Against a horde that is T3 its a bit better, about 3 wounds, against a 5+ save its 2 dead models. Against a T8 vehicle its .76 wounds which allow the 3+ save which means about .25 damage

Those 3 Eradicators get 6 shots for 4 hits and against T3 or T4 its 3.33 wounds which allow no save and then do D6 damage. So significantly better at Clearing hordes or SMs or any infantry for that matter. Against that T8 vehicle its 2 wounds that do D6 damage each...so a lot higher than the .25 dmg Meganobz do.

Now in CC you are right, those Meganobz are great...but of course they have to actually make it into combat to inflict any dmg which isn't as easy as it sounds

So yeah, If you think they are comparable, i'll gladly play a competitive game against you where I get Eradicators and you can have meganobz

SemperMortis wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think we can safely compare those two:

Both have 3 wounds a model, so T5 3+ Sv versus T4 2+ Sv is a wash against most weapons
6 Melta shots vs 12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD means one kills vehicle/monsters/heavy infantry pretty well while the other is a bit better against hordes.
9 S 5 with Power Claws is way better than 7 (plus Shock Assault) close combat attacks

So head-to-head Eradicators will beat MANs in shooting and MANs will crush Eradicators in close combat. Otherwise, it is a matter of target and if you can get into close combat.

So I ask again, what do you expect from 120 points?

12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD ends up with 4.6 hits, against T4 that is 2.3 wounds which allows armor save, so against those Space Marines that is .77ish wounds on a Marine. Against a horde that is T3 its a bit better, about 3 wounds, against a 5+ save its 2 dead models. Against a T8 vehicle its .76 wounds which allow the 3+ save which means about .25 damage

Those 3 Eradicators get 6 shots for 4 hits and against T3 or T4 its 3.33 wounds which allow no save and then do D6 damage. So significantly better at Clearing hordes or SMs or any infantry for that matter. Against that T8 vehicle its 2 wounds that do D6 damage each...so a lot higher than the .25 dmg Meganobz do.

Now in CC you are right, those Meganobz are great...but of course they have to actually make it into combat to inflict any dmg which isn't as easy as it sounds

So yeah, If you think they are comparable, i'll gladly play a competitive game against you where I get Eradicators and you can have meganobz

wait wait, does that mean we have permission to start comparing Meganobz to the new 3w terminators? Let me start.
Megabads are worse in every single way.

 Blackie wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

6 Melta shots vs 12 Kustom Shoota shots with DDD means one kills vehicle/monsters/heavy infantry pretty well while the other is a bit better against hordes.

12 kustom shootas with DDD means an average of 4 or 5 hits at S4 ap-, that will wound on 3s or 4s and allow armor saves. 6 meltas at BS3+ are 4 hits that would wound on 2s and negate any save, they are definitely better against hordes. And I'm not even counting re-rolls, which are easy to get for SM, while orks don't have any.

People sometimes forget that DDD is significant on high S high AP high D weapons, almost irrelevant on sluggas/shootas. 30 shootaboyz with DDD gain a gran total of 3 additional hits S4 ap-, rolling 70 dice in total.

It's also worth mentioning that a shooting unit will fire up to 5 times in a game, and safely from turn 1 while a CC oriented one will actually fight 1-2 turns per game and cannot cause damage in turn 1 tipycally. You can screen a charger, you can't screen a shooter.

I mean, depending on the terrain layout you can screen shooters. Limits targets that unit can see but you can also keep a shooting unit alive much, much longer.

In the meanwhile, I would declare a 2000 pt Marine army as a horde if it contains

6x 10 Tacticals and 3x 10 Assault Marines.

This gives 180 wounds, not 180 models. And they have better saves than the troop choices of Nids and Orcs.

Ask yourself: How many multi-damage weapons does your army contain, to kill 2 wound Marines outright?

The concept of horde armies is to surround and outnumber the enemy with bodies, not to be tankier than the opponent. Hordes win games with board control mostly.

Now we have the unpleasant situation in which SM can actually bring a fair number of bodies which are also quite resilient. Another point to those who say horde armies are dead.

horde armies, with low SV, were dead when the first doctrines showed up in conjunction with bolter discipline.

Another point to those who say horde armies are dead.

This is exactly my point.
How many more models (wounds) can you field in a horde army?

 wuestenfux wrote:

Another point to those who say horde armies are dead.

This is exactly my point.
How many more models (wounds) can you field in a horde army?

Well a horde army can have those 180 wounds just in Troops, meanwhile you've used up your Troops, AND your FA. You're also assuming Tacs/Assaults won't go up for a two wound cost. If you use costs of Intercessors and Vanguard Vets that's 1770 instead of 1440 for 180 Ork boyz no Grots. Half and half gets you to 1170. The difference between "horde" and infantry heavy SM got smaller but it hasn't been negated.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Another point to those who say horde armies are dead.

This is exactly my point.
How many more models (wounds) can you field in a horde army?

Now? The bare minimum to be defined as an horde army. Less than 200 models for a 2000 points game.

And with little to zero supporting stuff to make them work properly, because the humble cheap dude is not that cheap and expendable anymore. Combine that to all those 9th mechanics that hit large squads plus increased lethality even against troops and horde armies are no more.

Not Online!!! wrote:
horde armies, with low SV, were dead when the first doctrines showed up in conjunction with bolter discipline.

it's been awhile but back in 7th and earlier didn't Marines have sufficant AP to ignore GEQ armor anyway?

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
horde armies, with low SV, were dead when the first doctrines showed up in conjunction with bolter discipline.

it's been awhile but back in 7th and earlier didn't Marines have sufficant AP to ignore GEQ armor anyway?

Did you See hordes beyond orks and formation r&h?

If you use costs of Intercessors and Vanguard Vets that's 1770 instead of 1440 for 180 Ork boyz no Grots.

Now compare the armor saves and the difference will essentially be nothing.

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
horde armies, with low SV, were dead when the first doctrines showed up in conjunction with bolter discipline.

it's been awhile but back in 7th and earlier didn't Marines have sufficant AP to ignore GEQ armor anyway?

Yes, but they had only 24" range, rapid-fired only within 12" and the cover save was a separate save, unaffected by AP.

By giving new marines bolters with 30" range the kill area has increased by ~55%.
By upgrading rapid-fire to work at the max range the bolter lethality skyrocketed.
Then the extra attacks for all marines made them too costly to effectively tarpit, doctrines allowed bolters to cut through remnants of armor saves (even in cover) and full rerolls minimized the impact of -1 to hit defensive auras.

Hordes were left naked, exposed, and with no way to withstand the storm besides invulnerable saves (rare) and FnP (also rare). Some horde lists weathered it better than others, but speaking for Nid and GSC, these were not the lucky ones.

I have not played a lot of 9th edition, but it seems to me that any unit with loads of models is good at capping points and objectives. Models with the infantery keyword innparticular can do actions.

Aslo, none of my models ever had a coversave in 8th edition. In 9th that is not the case. So they are more durable then they where.

Also, when the last offisial edition of Warhammer Fantasy wad around you had a lot of relly good and cool models. But they where very bad in the game. What was good was hordes of infatery. The only thing better then 40 skeletan warriors was 60 skeletan warriors. The only thing better then 20 tomb guards where 30 tomb guards. (Well teqnicaly 20 grave guards ad well as they had the same statline with better saves for the same points, but I digress.)

When AoS came around you have a much better mix of models on the table. In 8th edition it turned out the best thing any favtion could do was to take IG because they where more durable and a hier damage output then any othet model. And that was just a very boring aspect of 8th. 9th tryes to retefy that. Hordes are stil good inn 9th though.

 wuestenfux wrote:

If you use costs of Intercessors and Vanguard Vets that's 1770 instead of 1440 for 180 Ork boyz no Grots.

Now compare the armor saves and the difference will essentially be nothing.

Now compare the ROF.

Now compare the bubble buffs.

Now compare your 30ish points of 6 grots with 6 wounds win ObSec against my 100 or so points of 5 Intercessors with 10 wounds.

it'll go on and on. The horde and a few other things essentially pushed Marines to try and max their models/wounds. Assuming Rapid Fire every time all the time - a Tac Squad 10(or 20) wounds, more than 18 shots plus a special and a heavy box art flamer + ML is average 25 shots, 10 models vs Intercessors at about the same 20 wounds, 20 shots (or more if they go Assault Bolters).

That's less than 10 points per shot fired.

You only get 5 turns to shoot.

Even at 10 points per shot fired for easy math...
2000 points gets 200 shots per turn. 134 hits, 67 wounds average a 6+ save after all the cover/ap/etc hijinks is 58 wounds after. That's three turns of shooting. Leaving only two for the other 500-900 points of whatever wounds you have. Assuming you don't tarpit anything for the worse melee that will kill less. And you didn't take anything I need Anti Tank for that will be a lot more than 10 points per shot fired.

I already played this mental game. You take two batallions of 6x30 grots, and I can't kill grots faster than you can move them on the objective. If you put 3 units of grots on each of four objectives, that's 90 wounds to shoot off when I'm only dealing (grots have a lower T so) 89 wounds (no saves) that still leaves one Grot on the objective, and 90 each on the other three. After four turns you have one grot on each objective, plus whatever the rest of your army is doing.

Edit to Add: Also assuming you never shoot me back.

Did you forget that you can charge?