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the_scotsman 791221 10921847 wrote:
Yes, though I don't know why you'd go for a "2250" point list instead of the tournament standard 2k.

It's pretty laughably easy to beat a massive scoring horde style list in 9th with a decent tac list unless it's made up of a few select, good units like Orks (with proper defensive support) and nurgle daemons.

Pretty much any other horde skew you go up against you can beat up on incredibly easily with typical marine/custode/harlequin TAC list setups.

People around here didn't like the potential smaller armies of 9th, so the games went from 2000pts 8th ed, to 2250 in 9th. It is practicaly the same number of models and units as it was in 8th for most lists. But it is good to hear that some armies can do it. I never played against the nurgling infiltration list, only seen it being played with bases, so it is hard to judge such a thing. Not many people like playing orcs etc here, so missing stuff or not understanding is easy for me.

Karol wrote:

the_scotsman 791221 10921847 wrote:
Yes, though I don't know why you'd go for a "2250" point list instead of the tournament standard 2k.

It's pretty laughably easy to beat a massive scoring horde style list in 9th with a decent tac list unless it's made up of a few select, good units like Orks (with proper defensive support) and nurgle daemons.

Pretty much any other horde skew you go up against you can beat up on incredibly easily with typical marine/custode/harlequin TAC list setups.

People around here didn't like the potential smaller armies of 9th, so the games went from 2000pts 8th ed, to 2250 in 9th. It is practicaly the same number of models and units as it was in 8th for most lists. But it is good to hear that some armies can do it. I never played against the nurgling infiltration list, only seen it being played with bases, so it is hard to judge such a thing. Not many people like playing orcs etc here, so missing stuff or not understanding is easy for me.

in general, the style of "De-prioritize killing, win through scoring based on having lots of bodies" is extremely difficult to do in the current meta.

part of that, I'd chalk up to the general overcosting of various factions that followed that archetype resulting in them being mostly absent from the competitive game. You aren't going to see Eldar. you aren't going to see GSC.

There's also the particularly bad matchup of the infiltrator-heavy space marines. If your list is bad at killing, having your enemy deploy with a couple of dreadnoughts and 20-odd primaris bodies sitting on all the midboard objectives with 2+ saves in cover and weapons designed to carve up hordes...you're gonna have a bad time, and marines with those units are pretty common atm.

It's a pretty similar situation to where elite infantry armies were after the first round of codexes in 8th. Several factions just happened to have bad rules at the time - marines rules were OK, but GK were bad and Necrons were bad, so that's two elite armies you weren't about to see, and in general, the balance of power of common missions favored mobility, killing, and cheap bodies to fling at objectives.

Obviously, people saw this coming pretty early on when the rules for 9th started dropping, then more when the full rules for missions dropped, then even more when the points dropped. This is an edition that gives cheap, shooting-focused infantry basically nothing to do, then nerfs them in several ways for good measure.

Of course, each time that was pointed out, the response was "we don't have the full picture yet, you have to wait!" which has now shifted to "....until after the codexes release, which incidentally of course the ones who are getting their codexes first are the ones most favored by the 9th ed mission structure." Because if all the chaos marines aren't next after all the loyalist marines+necrons, I'll eat my hat. The codex release schedule is going to be: SM+Necrons, then a month or two of all the marine supplements for DW/DA/SW/BA, they'll probably leave the 2.0 supplements alone, then probably CSM+GK, then a month for Chaos supplements akin to the marine supplements.

Who knows, maybe by summer next year one of the codexes that most needs attention after the drop of 9th will actually see the light of day.

It could be like that. It would be nice if DG could just take 24 bases of nurglings as regular troops without taking a second detachment and a CP hit. But I not codex designer, and merging cult books with its demons would probably make the demon players unhappy.

Karol wrote:
It could be like that. It would be nice if DG could just take 24 bases of nurglings as regular troops without taking a second detachment and a CP hit. But I not codex designer, and merging cult books with its demons would probably make the demon players unhappy.

Actually from what i've seen, many of us chaos players would like there to be 5 books.
Chaos undivided : basic CSM + belakor
Tzeentch : thousand sons supplement + tzeentch demons
Nurgle : Deathguard supplement + nurgle
etc.

Basically do it similarly to what AoS does.
That way we wouldnt be forced to soup as much and monogods would become better since you would be able to have csm + demons in the same detachment.

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You seem to not be aware that dipping into those additional buffs usually requires bring 240 points of boyz that are extremely likely not never fight even once during a game.

Ere We Go, Mob Rule, And DDD don’t show as needing 20-30 model mobs, just Green tide does. Even Green Tide is on the unit, not an additional buffing character. They work better, but don’t appear to require them.

Sure, if you want to split hairs down to a meaningless point - again - technically you are correct. But not in a way that ever matters to any game which actually has a single ork boy in it.
Therefore this differentiation is worthless.
If you want to melee with boyz, you need mobs of 30. Period. Those melee orks are unit which is 245 points minimum, probably requires a weird boy to be effective and it sure as heck compares in no way to guardsmen.

And you said people weren’t going to complain about 7 point guardsmen

I actually didn't say that.

it's weird, I must be imagining these tournament lists that take trukk boyz as 10 man squads and seem to find them effective. Certainly they've seemed perfectly good in games that I've played them - it's great to force my opponent to shoot the most durable vehicles in my army to try and stop me scoring when i have a bunch of buggies and kustom jobbed up vehicles ripping them up.

How often do those trukk boyz use mob rule to any effect? How often do they actually do meaningful damage in combat?
How often do those trukk boy units actually charge per game?

I haven't said that they are bad choice, but their job is not charge things and kill them.

 Jidmah wrote:
How often do those trukk boyz use mob rule to any effect? How often do they actually do meaningful damage in combat?
How often do those trukk boy units actually charge per game?

Just a point but I don't think this is a problem unique to Ork Boyz.

It seems quite a few armies have to use melee troops in a similar manner for one reason or another.

 Jidmah wrote:
How often do those trukk boyz use mob rule to any effect? How often do they actually do meaningful damage in combat?
How often do those trukk boy units actually charge per game?

I haven't said that they are bad choice, but their job is not charge things and kill them.

no, but it's a job they can do passably well while doing their primary job of holding an objective.

A guard squad in a chimera and a boyz squad in a trukk both cost similar amounts (135 vs 145) and have similar durability (the trukk dies slightly faster but the boyz die slightly slower) and do approximately the same damage through shooting, but the boyz have the option to go have a melee slapfight with some small objective holding unit like a min tac/csm squad, a scout squad, some nurglings, a GEQ 10-man, something like that. 20 shoota attacks plus 4x S5 Ap- 18x S4 Ap- is enough to overwhelm a lot of smaller units. It's not their primary job, but it's an option.

the guard squad's two capabilities are both reliant on a character (a commander) being nearby and both of them aren't quite as effective. They can scoot to a different objective with move move move if one is open, or they can hop and about double their ranged firepower with FRFSRF, which considering the cost of the commander is more like 1.5x-ing their firepower.

Most troop squads before you get to the ones like Intercessors, which are actually more like other armies' elites that just happen to have Obsec and the Troops role, have the option to do something fairly ineffectively beyond just "shoot a bit". Maybe they can take a couple special weapons like melta guns and try to cause unexpected spike damage to a tank. Maybe they can use melee to whack another cheap squad. Maybe they're like Eldar Rangers and they can try to plink a wound or two off a character or kill a cheap support character.

The current best in the biz I'd argue for that are Wracks, whose little shtick of having 2 special weapons that are very good at plinking away at MEQ units in DT/MM has proven to be pretty dang effective into the current MEQ meta.In a meta that's not dominated by W2/W3 MEQs wracks wouldn't be nearly as good, but there it is.If the meta was dominated by T8 vehicles the title of best little gak unit would probably be GSC neophytes with their discount lascannons.

The amount of moved goal posts in this thread is getting extremely annoying. To bring the goalpost back in line, the original argument was that mob rule, DakkaDakkaDakka, 'ere we go, +1A, green tide and +1S are worth a 60% point increase on a 10 man unit. Do I understand correctly that you agree with that?

And no, boyz don't die slower than guardsmen. T3/5+ is superior or equal to T4/6+ for almost all relevant guns.

As for the "overwhelm small objective holding unit" - those 145 points of OP trukk shoota boyz people keep advertising only have a decent chance of killing 50 points of guardsmen out of cover if you both shoot an charge them, buy a weapon for your nob and the trukk shoots and charges in as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
The amount of moved goal posts in this thread is getting extremely annoying. To bring the goalpost back in line, the original argument was that mob rule, DakkaDakkaDakka, 'ere we go, +1A, green tide and +1S are worth a 60% point increase on a 10 man unit. Do I understand correctly that you agree with that?

And no, boyz don't die slower than guardsmen. T3/5+ is superior or equal to T4/6+ for almost all relevant guns.

As for the "overwhelm small objective holding unit" - those 145 points of OP trukk shoota boyz people keep advertising only have a decent chance of killing 50 points of guardsmen out of cover if you both shoot an charge them, buy a weapon for your nob and the trukk shoots and charges in as well.

yup. In particular the +1A +1S and the +1S on their gun (BS5+ with DDD is basically the same as BS4+, it's got a slightly worse average and slightly better chance to do a little bit more).

I'm not sure where the goalposts are going. My stance at the beginning of this discussion was "Boyz appear to be a competitive option in the ork codex, appear to be taken both in trukks as min squads and on foot as max squads, and looking at the performance of orks vs the performance of guard, guardsmen do not appear to be quite as good." The only conclusion I can come to from that statement is that it's an internet dunk if you say "moving the goalposts" - so, I guess my counter-argument at this point should be to say that you've committed the strawman, reducto patronum, ad hominem and lorem ipsum fallacies, checkmate atheists.

It is still that. I've just been elaborating about why I feel the advantages you're trying to downplay have come to be so useful in the games I've played and seen played.

I consider the 60% cost increase between a guardsman and a boy much more worthwhile than the 50% cost increase between a boy and a wrack, to use an example from the other thread, and I consider wracks to be a pretty good piece into the current meta as well.

Mandatory tax is not the same as competitive.

 Jidmah wrote:
Mandatory tax is not the same as competitive.

And we disagree. I think the bare minimum for a mandatory tax is 150pts of gretchin if you really MUST keep that 3cp, not 435pts of boyz and trukks or 750+ points of boyz in the green tide lists. And there are plenty of people choosing to give up the 3cp in favor of allies or just running a list with no battalion in it, either patrol with warlord + slot detachment or just slot detachment list.

Trukk boyz are currently good because they're scoring units that add target saturation for other vehicles and pressure thanks to the speed of the transports. They won't kill anything valuable, that's not their role. I'm not sure if they're good enough for a tournament level meta though, which luckily isn't the tipycal/average 40k meta.

But I definitely prefer them over blobs of 30 because the latter require a massive investment in points (at least half the 2000 points budget) and they aren't that killy anyway once they reach a target, IF they reach it, unless they're part of the Goffs build with exploding 6s, S5, +1A and re-rolling 1s.

150 points of gretchins are a pure tax instead, I'd avoid them at any cost.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You seem to not be aware that dipping into those additional buffs usually requires bring 240 points of boyz that are extremely likely not never fight even once during a game.

Ere We Go, Mob Rule, And DDD don’t show as needing 20-30 model mobs, just Green tide does. Even Green Tide is on the unit, not an additional buffing character. They work better, but don’t appear to require them.

Sure, if you want to split hairs down to a meaningless point - again - technically you are correct. But not in a way that ever matters to any game which actually has a single ork boy in it.
Therefore this differentiation is worthless.
If you want to melee with boyz, you need mobs of 30. Period. Those melee orks are unit which is 245 points minimum, probably requires a weird boy to be effective and it sure as heck compares in no way to guardsmen.

yes, the tons of extra specific requirements you’re adding on make my point that it’s a SLIGHT edge to have the special rules on the mob instead of on a second unit you that has to be around to apply those rules is meaningless.

And you said people weren’t going to complain about 7 point guardsmen

I actually didn't say that.

Guard players aren’t part of “anyone”?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
The amount of moved goal posts in this thread is getting extremely annoying. To bring the goalpost back in line, the original argument was that mob rule, DakkaDakkaDakka, 'ere we go, +1A, green tide and +1S are worth a 60% point increase on a 10 man unit. Do I understand correctly that you agree with that?

No, that wasn’t the original argument. Someone must have just moved the goalposts. That’s the argument for why Guardsmen are probably worth 7 if boys are worth 8. It has nothing to do with if boys are worth 8. The initial baseline points value is arbitrary and just sets relative value for the comparative units. If orks are with 80 points and we play 20,000 point games, guardsmen are probably worth 70.

the_scotsman wrote:

no, but it's a job they can do passably well while doing their primary job of holding an objective.

A guard squad in a chimera and a boyz squad in a trukk both cost similar amounts (135 vs 145) and have similar durability (the trukk dies slightly faster but the boyz die slightly slower) and do approximately the same damage through shooting, but the boyz have the option to go have a melee slapfight with some small objective holding unit like a min tac/csm squad, a scout squad, some nurglings, a GEQ 10-man, something like that. 20 shoota attacks plus 4x S5 Ap- 18x S4 Ap- is enough to overwhelm a lot of smaller units. It's not their primary job, but it's an option.

the guard squad's two capabilities are both reliant on a character (a commander) being nearby and both of them aren't quite as effective. They can scoot to a different objective with move move move if one is open, or they can hop and about double their ranged firepower with FRFSRF, which considering the cost of the commander is more like 1.5x-ing their firepower.

Most troop squads before you get to the ones like Intercessors, which are actually more like other armies' elites that just happen to have Obsec and the Troops role, have the option to do something fairly ineffectively beyond just "shoot a bit". Maybe they can take a couple special weapons like melta guns and try to cause unexpected spike damage to a tank. Maybe they can use melee to whack another cheap squad. Maybe they're like Eldar Rangers and they can try to plink a wound or two off a character or kill a cheap support character.

The current best in the biz I'd argue for that are Wracks, whose little shtick of having 2 special weapons that are very good at plinking away at MEQ units in DT/MM has proven to be pretty dang effective into the current MEQ meta.In a meta that's not dominated by W2/W3 MEQs wracks wouldn't be nearly as good, but there it is.If the meta was dominated by T8 vehicles the title of best little gak unit would probably be GSC neophytes with their discount lascannons.

I want to highlight this because it is very disingenuous to say the least

have similar durability (the trukk dies slightly faster but the boyz die slightly slower) and do approximately the same damage through shooting

Trukk is T6 with a 4+ save, the Chimera is T7 with a 3+ save. unless you are heavily over-estimating the worth of Ramshackle, this is a complete falsehood. Against anything S7 or lower the Chimera is significantly more durable, against 8+ its 16.6% more durable. As far as damage output, the Chimera has a heavy bolter and a multi-laser, so 3 S5 -1AP 2dmg shots and 3 S6 1 dmg shots, it also has a modified open topped rule that allows 3 lasguns to shoot if a unit is onboard. All of that is BS4. The Trukk on the other hand has a Big shoota for 3 S5 shots and is open topped so the shoota boys inside can all shoot if they are within range, all of whom will be BS5+

So the chimera is tougher and has better shooting by far, literally more than double the RoF and higher strength/dmg and AP. The Troops inside as we have already mentioned are very similar in usability. Yeah the boyz are going to be better for taking an objective but the Guardsmen are better at holding it, thanks to the fact that they have longer ranged guns and a cheap buff character (25pts) can double their rate of fire.

I would argue that a Chimera dumping their entire arsenal into a 10man boy squad guarding an objective is likely a lot more effective than a trukk and 10 shoota boys trying the same trick.