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Hi, sorry if this is the wrong place for this question, I’ve tried googling but without success.
I’m a 40K Death Guard player, all be it a massive noob having only just truly entered the hobby.

I would like a Daemon Prince of Nurgle but, and let’s be honest, GWs DPoN is an awful model. I’d like to swap him out for possibly the AoS Daemon Prince & then paint him more like a Poxwalker with class.

So my question is what are the rules around substituting characters?
Does it depend on the ‘house rules’ (home/store/tournament)

Yes, it really depends on who and where you're playing. For the most part, though, so long as the model you are using is around the right size, and is recognisable for what it is supposed to be (to avoid confusing your opponent) you will generally have no problems.

There are no official rules, but historically GW was very pro-conversion. That is not as true as it used to be, but cool conversions are still a big part of the game. As long as you're putting the work in to make something cool, use the right base size, and try to keep the dimensions roughly the same, it's very rare that anyone is going to have a reaction other than "wow, that model is awesome!"

Also in this particular example the generic Daemon Prince model works for all four chaos gods, it isn't even proxy/conversion territory to use it. Just because there is a special nurgle daemon prince model too doesn't mean you have to use that one. Anyone who tells you you can't use the daemon prince model for, well, a daemon prince, is wrong no matter how you cut it.

Additionally, every daemon prince is unique, so the fact that they are all represented by the same boring model (ok, models, plus the two FW ones as well) is really not how it should be. Of all the models in the game, daemon princes are the ones you should feel most free to build in almost absolutely any way you want. In the lore they vary wildly in size and appearance; they're not all cheap Diablo knock-offs. Even competitive tournaments will probably be ok, as long as again the base size is right and the general dimensions are similar and not clearly engineered for advantage.

yukishiro1 wrote:
There are no official rules, but historically GW was very pro-conversion. That is not as true as it used to be, but cool conversions are still a big part of the game. As long as you're putting the work in to make something cool, use the right base size, and try to keep the dimensions roughly the same, it's very rare that anyone is going to have a reaction other than "wow, that model is awesome!"

Also in this particular example the generic Daemon Prince model works for all four chaos gods, it isn't even proxy/conversion territory to use it. Just because there is a special nurgle daemon prince model too doesn't mean you have to use that one. Anyone who tells you you can't use the daemon prince model for, well, a daemon prince, is wrong no matter how you cut it.

Additionally, every daemon prince is unique, so the fact that they are all represented by the same boring model (ok, models, plus the two FW ones as well) is really not how it should be. Of all the models in the game, daemon princes are the ones you should feel most free to build in almost absolutely any way you want. In the lore they vary wildly in size and appearance; they're not all cheap Diablo knock-offs. Even competitive tournaments will probably be ok, as long as again the base size is right and the general dimensions are similar and not clearly engineered for advantage.

Thank you very much.

By AoS Daemon Prince... do you mean this one...?
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Daemon-Prince-2016

If so, it's not even a question of checking with anyone. This is a legit 40k model as well as AoS, always has been since it was first released - if you look at the sprue and the alternate builds, you'll notice there's daemonized power armour for the chest and shoulders in there.

The one thing to keep in mind is that anything that is officially GW-affiliated will not let you use models made by competitors. There is some wiggle room here in the sense that not even a GW store is likely to care if you use some third-party head or pauldron swaps or something like that, except maybe if you go around bragging about it. But if you show up to a GW store with a competitor's model wholesale, they will likely turn you away if they notice, possibly even if you've done a lot of conversion work on it. Other game stores will generally not care so much, especially if you've put effort in to make it unique, though who knows, maybe there are some independent stores that won't let you use competitor models too.

DeathGuardDan wrote:
...I would like a Daemon Prince of Nurgle but, and let’s be honest, GWs DPoN is an awful model. I’d like to swap him out for possibly the AoS Daemon Prince & then paint him more like a Poxwalker with class...

...Anyone who takes issue with you using a model GW sells as a Daemon Prince that is the same size as a different model they sell as a Daemon Prince as a Daemon Prince is a pretty uniquely special breed of twit.

Here you wouldn't even need GW model as long as it is reasonably describing model. Not having GW stores or tournaments in big scale has funny habit of doing that.

 Super Ready wrote:
By AoS Daemon Prince... do you mean this one...?
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Daemon-Prince-2016

If so, it's not even a question of checking with anyone. This is a legit 40k model as well as AoS, always has been since it was first released - if you look at the sprue and the alternate builds, you'll notice there's daemonized power armour for the chest and shoulders in there.

Yeah that’s the one I prefer. Thanks for the info. I’ll go with him then.

I've played in many events in GW stores with this army.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Flamespyre-Phoenix This is my baleflamer heldrake (with the rider replaced with a thousand sons sorceror, and the base replaced)

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Morghast-Archai-2018 These are my daemon princes

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/e/e0/Necrosphinx_M03.jpg and these are my maulerfiends.

No GW store has ever had a problem with it.

the_scotsman wrote:
I've played in many events in GW stores with this army.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Flamespyre-Phoenix This is my baleflamer heldrake (with the rider replaced with a thousand sons sorceror, and the base replaced)

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Morghast-Archai-2018 These are my daemon princes

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/e/e0/Necrosphinx_M03.jpg and these are my maulerfiends.

No GW store has ever had a problem with it.

Yeah, like many things on the internet there is a lot of things overblown. No, Reddit; someone using reasonable “counts as” is not confusing for the opponent. I see far too many potential great conversion ideas get shot down on certain subs as people continue to perpetuate this falsehood.

I’ve used plenty of “counts as” in various armies and have had no confusion. As long as it is obvious from the context of the army (like your examples above. I can see without even looking it is a TS or Tzeentchian army of some description) people will not be confused. “Counts as” is like literally my favourite rule in 40k, though I have seen people abuse it that is not the norm. Don’t be afraid to embrace converting and kitbashing OP.

That's not even a counts as.
But I have to say you're the first person I've ever heard of that actually prefers the plastic abomination over the awesome Nurgle prince. Looks wize, that is. The material is superior of course, because failcast sucks. Mine is metal luckily.

yukishiro1 wrote:

...

Additionally, every daemon prince is unique, so the fact that they are all represented by the same boring model (ok, models, plus the two FW ones as well) is really not how it should be. Of all the models in the game, daemon princes are the ones you should feel most free to build in almost absolutely any way you want. ...

I know this is veering off topic, but that's debatable. A Daemon Prince needs to at least look like a leader and is vaguely constrained by wargear. A Chaos Spawn has no restrictions whatsoever, it almost certainly has a stronger claim to the title of "most customizable".

I'd say the Ork vehicle range in general puts forward a pretty strong case too. You could build an Orky homage to the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and nobody would bat an eye at it, so the Daemon Prince has some pretty stiff competition for the second place spot.

Generally speaking, you won’t come across many objections so long as you follow the 2 unwritten rules (and written in some tournaments.

The model can be identified as a Daemon Prince
The model is not modelled for advantage.

One tournament in the UK asks for flash cards where the card has a picture of overly customised / alternative models so that your opponent can easily identify it

The modelling for advanced tends to me more about size Of the model / base (Here is my Daemon Prince that look exactly like nurglings). Nobody minds if you model to your own disadvantage

Thankfully Daemon Princes tend to be the most customised / alternative Model of all of the opponents I have played other than Ork vehicles.

Sumilidon wrote:
The modelling for advanced tends to me more about size Of the model / base (Here is my Daemon Prince that look exactly like nurglings). Nobody minds if you model to your own disadvantage

You say that, but now all I can thing about is how cool it would be to have a Daemon Prince that is just a massive pile of Nurglings in a roughly humanoid shape.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
You say that, but now all I can thing about is how cool it would be to have a Daemon Prince that is just a massive pile of Nurglings in a roughly humanoid shape.

...sooooo, a Great Unclean One, no? Kidding aside that's a fantastic idea.

I would like to invite you to take a look at my picture gallery. I have 3 Nurgle daemon princes, have played several games with them all, and have NEVER had a problem with anyone giving me lip about not using the "correct" model.

Especially if you are a new player. If you play a Death guard army, and have a daemon prince model, no matter which one, I cannot see why that should be a problem for anyone.

Honestly, anyone who gets upset about alternative or converted models that aren't very clearly intended to give an advantage (like, I don't know, all your minis being in deep water with only their heads and guns sticking out) is someone I wouldn't want to play against because any differences it makes are so minute that they really won't influence a game.

And really, most people would enjoy an army that's more creative than a cookie cutter army right from a catalogue anyways.

Seriously people? It is not an alternative or converted model.

The "AoS" daemon prince is the only official daemon prince model with wings currently available. This is one of the official models for a Daemon Prince of Nurgle and can even be seen on pictures inside the codex.

You just paint it in DG colors and it's just as legal as every other model in you can buy in the store.

 Jidmah wrote:
Seriously people? It is not an alternative or converted model.

who are you calling out here? Isn't literally everyone pointing out that this is an official model for that unit, and therefore 100% legal to use??

And here I was going to convert an Armiger to use as a prince.

I have no issues with stand in models if the person doesn't have the real model. Should ideally be about the same size other than that...doesn't matter too much. However I am very easy going on this sort of thing.

as long as its easily recongizable for what it is and the same size theres usually no problem. I dont think ive seen anyone use the 40k DPoN model before yet everyone runs DPs so its probably not a big deal

Definitly. Just as an example my Sentinel Powerlifter:



It has the same height, a very similar shape and fits the description of "a large walker with driver, kittet out to lift stuff and attack in CC", lol

yukishiro1 wrote:
The one thing to keep in mind is that anything that is officially GW-affiliated will not let you use models made by competitors. There is some wiggle room here in the sense that not even a GW store is likely to care if you use some third-party head or pauldron swaps or something like that, except maybe if you go around bragging about it. But if you show up to a GW store with a competitor's model wholesale, they will likely turn you away if they notice, possibly even if you've done a lot of conversion work on it. Other game stores will generally not care so much, especially if you've put effort in to make it unique, though who knows, maybe there are some independent stores that won't let you use competitor models too.

I've used garage-produced conversions in GW Stores and Warhammer World. A colleague of mine had his army (that featured 3rd party-produced bits) - although it was absolutely wonderfully made - actually put on display in Warhammer World!

I think the key points are a) does the miniature or conversion fit? (seemless, characterful conversions are OK - an unconverted Bandai robot or Warmachine miniature no) and b) as you say, do you draw attention to the fact you have used non-GW miniatures or conversion pieces? I think if you don't act like a fool and bragging about it (which is then forcing the staff to take action) most of the guys working in these stores and events* are hobbyists just like us and will appreciate a good conversion, and I don't think I've ever encountered any corporate shills.

* Caveat to this is that funnily enough sometimes at these events the non-GW staff, who have nothing to do with GW at all other than them presumably wearing Space Marine underpants and writing gushing letters every week to the design studio to try and get a job (or just suck up), have been known to stop, point and start screaming at the miniature (like that scene with Donald Sutherland in the Body Snatchers) they have identified as being less than 1% non-GW (so you will sometimes get a more draconian attitude at unofficial events from my experience)

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Definitly. Just as an example my Sentinel Powerlifter:



It has the same height, a very similar shape and fits the description of "a large walker with driver, kittet out to lift stuff and attack in CC", lol

A bit off topic, but thanks for posting that! It really gives some ideas for my own sentinels.

 Jidmah wrote:
The "AoS" daemon prince is the only official daemon prince model with wings currently available.

Funnily enough, requirement of "official GW model" means you can take Balrog and field it as DP - it even has wargear options similar to Warhammer DPs, as well as optional wings. Then there is Belakor, who can be fielded as generic DP, converted or just painted differently - so really, there are tons of official models that can be fielded as DP, winged or not, and the above are just low hanging fruits. Warcry alone has 3 nice big models that can easily be DPs in 40K with some creative modelling...

 Irbis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The "AoS" daemon prince is the only official daemon prince model with wings currently available.

Funnily enough, requirement of "official GW model" means you can take Balrog and field it as DP - it even has wargear options similar to Warhammer DPs, as well as optional wings. Then there is Belakor, who can be fielded as generic DP, converted or just painted differently - so really, there are tons of official models that can be fielded as DP, winged or not, and the above are just low hanging fruits. Warcry alone has 3 nice big models that can easily be DPs in 40K with some creative modelling...

False analogy. Unlike all of the models you are listing here, the "AoS" daemon prince (one without wings even) is shown in the gallery part of the Death Guard codex with the words "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" written below it.

You are talking about alternative models that can be fielded as a DP. This model IS the DP, with absolutely no wiggle room for anyone to claim otherwise.

 Irbis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The "AoS" daemon prince is the only official daemon prince model with wings currently available.

Funnily enough, requirement of "official GW model" means you can take Balrog and field it as DP - it even has wargear options similar to Warhammer DPs, as well as optional wings. Then there is Belakor, who can be fielded as generic DP, converted or just painted differently - so really, there are tons of official models that can be fielded as DP, winged or not, and the above are just low hanging fruits. Warcry alone has 3 nice big models that can easily be DPs in 40K with some creative modelling...

Yeeeeah, I don't really agree with this line of thinking because of how murky it can get. Using the Balrog or Belakor as a Daemon Prince? Seems fine in principle, they're of a similar size.
But if you get into that kind of "official GW model" territory, you're also looking at things like "by the way, this Whirlwind is actually a Razorback".
Fine if you agree to it, but not something I would expect everyone to accept, especially not in tournaments.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The "AoS" daemon prince is the only official daemon prince model with wings currently available.

Funnily enough, requirement of "official GW model" means you can take Balrog and field it as DP - it even has wargear options similar to Warhammer DPs, as well as optional wings. Then there is Belakor, who can be fielded as generic DP, converted or just painted differently - so really, there are tons of official models that can be fielded as DP, winged or not, and the above are just low hanging fruits. Warcry alone has 3 nice big models that can easily be DPs in 40K with some creative modelling...

Yeeeeah, I don't really agree with this line of thinking because of how murky it can get. Using the Balrog or Belakor as a Daemon Prince? Seems fine in principle, they're of a similar size.
But if you get into that kind of "official GW model" territory, you're also looking at things like "by the way, this Whirlwind is actually a Razorback".
Fine if you agree to it, but not something I would expect everyone to accept, especially not in tournaments.

When you swap the turret out it literally is a razorback, though.