Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im not really that strong on the lore so riddle me this.

Lorewise, the strongest ork we have access to and know about, is our man Ghazzy. Ghazghkull, the mighty ork warboss, THE prophet of Gork and Mork, however, basically gets krumped and has his head cut off by some random human space marine officer from the Space Wolves.

How come, the best the Orks has to offer, has his head cut off by a random little ascended primaris? Why cant he at least die while putting up a fight to a Primarch? Is that really all the orks are good for? just losing to some tiny turd. At least bring out a Primarch or something to Krump Ghazzy.

You'd think the best the orks has to offer, would be putting up a good fight to a primarch yet he just fights some random dude who got lucky one day and was allowed to be important.

What what?

He's dead? Like -dead-dead-?

I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

what bothers me is that Ragnar didnt just get gipped by Ghazzy. There are so many humans who are super strong, Ghaz should legally be allowed to fight, and eventually just beat him. That they play it off like they're equals is just a turd on the Orks front lawn lorewise.

Ghazzy is the strongest the orks has to offer, and Ragnar isnt the strongest the humans have to offer.


If the strongest ork, Ghaz, loses to some twerp like Ragnar (or even has a draw), the entire lore behind orks is just not really that threatening. Orks are losers and weaklings that cant even best the humans non-leaders.

They could at least have Ghaz fight a primarch and lose or something id be fine with that, but Ragnar? No thank you.

Hes not even important, and i base that on the fact that I had to google who he was. Important people dont need to be googled.

You dont need to google horus or the emprah or Leman Russ.

But you have to google Ragnar.

Surely one of those ancient feral primal orks that's rumoured to be all extinct and yet vastly more powerful than the typical modern ork - surely that's the kind of ork that goes toe to toe with a Primarch.

 Overread wrote:
Surely one of those ancient feral primal orks that's rumoured to be all extinct and yet vastly more powerful than the typical modern ork - surely that's the kind of ork that goes toe to toe with a Primarch.

Is Ragnar even the one who leads the Space Wolves as whole?

If hes not, that just makes him even more insignificant and thats an even bigger turd flung at the orks. a non leader krumps the leader of the orks.


What a sad spectacle to behold.

Why dont we just have a random Eldar Ranger murder Abbadon at range with a headshot now that we're at it

yeah, like the Beast, who Ghaz is most certainly not.

If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

This Ragnar guy has a completely unreasonable number of attacks on his profile, but you gotta bear in mind Ghazkhul’s real rival is an elderly human sigh a heretek power klaw. It’s not his fault the setting has had really much wonky power escalation in recent years.

 Sim-Life wrote:
If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Beardedragon wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

what bothers me is that Ragnar didnt just get gipped by Ghazzy. There are so many humans who are super strong, Ghaz should legally be allowed to fight, and eventually just beat him. That they play it off like they're equals is just a turd on the Orks front lawn lorewise.

Ghazzy is the strongest the orks has to offer, and Ragnar isnt the strongest the humans have to offer.


If the strongest ork, Ghaz, loses to some twerp like Ragnar (or even has a draw), the entire lore behind orks is just not really that threatening. Orks are losers and weaklings that cant even best the humans non-leaders.

They could at least have Ghaz fight a primarch and lose or something id be fine with that, but Ragnar? No thank you.

Hes not even important, and i base that on the fact that I had to google who he was. Important people dont need to be googled.

You dont need to google horus or the emprah or Leman Russ.

But you have to google Ragnar.

Try googling how many novels Ragnar has had centred around him. Ghaz? Mmm, I can think of one where they for 2 pages had his POV. And i'm saying this as someone who has orks as his main faction. We're probably lucky Ragnar was even wounded with how thick his plot armor is.

The real question is, how’s old man Yarrick going to fare in a fight against Ghaz?
And what kind of combat monster will he be when he gets a plastic kit?

 Denegaar wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Yeah but the danger orks present is their numbers, rate of reproduction and hardiness. If every ork was on the same tier as a space marine they would have dominated the galaxy ages ago.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Yeah but the danger orks present is their numbers, rate of reproduction and hardiness. If every ork was on the same tier as a space marine they would have dominated the galaxy ages ago.

That's true, but we are not talking about an average Ork, Ghazghkull it's the strongest of Warlords, and Warlords are the strongest of Warbosses.

A sole Warboss is as strong, big and has such martial prowess as an armored Adeptus Astartes, that's why Space Marines have respect for their skills in combat, let alone the fething Ghazghkull. He is a legend.

A Primaris officer like Ragnar is not much stronger than a regular Primaris, he can be fiercer and more skilled in battle, but I think that the only explanation that we can give to the fact that he can beat Ghazghkull is because the plot (or the sales) need it.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of hearing about the Swarmlord or Ghaz getting punked by some Space Marine Captain or Chapter Master, I've had Ghazzy fight Knights and win handily on the Tabletop, I've had the Swarmlord cut through one like swiss cheese, (note, this is not an uncommon occurrence, my friends who use them go out of their way to avoid melee with Swarmie.

Then in the fluff seemingly everyone pushes the Swarmlord's gak in. Now Ghaz gets decapitated by some Space Wolf captain. Are Xenos not allowed to beat Space Marines or something. I recall Ghazzy smashing Belial and a large number of the Deathwing in a battle during the third war of Armageddon. Now he didn't kill Belial but he did cut a bloody path through the Deathwing. Now he kills a couple Wolf Guard then gets his head cut off. Rage.

I know that Lore does not equal gameplay but statwise, Ghaz should handily defeat Gulliman. Why does the lore not reflect this?

Can we stop pretending that Ragnar is just "some random human"?

didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

Not sure if he could kill Guilliman, The Beast was stronger than Ghaz and got killed by Vulkan IIRC.

But yeah that's true, Ghaz vs Ragnar was basically a draw, and Ragnar wasn't even Primaris yet. It makes no sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can we stop pretending that Ragnar is just "some random human"?

agreed, it honestly makes the Ork players who say it just look sadly ignorant.

 Denegaar wrote:
Not sure if he could kill Guilliman, The Beast was stronger than Ghaz and got killed by Vulkan IIRC.

But yeah that's true, Ghaz vs Ragnar was basically a draw, and Ragnar wasn't even Primaris yet. It makes no sense.

It did take a DBZ style sacrifice play for Vulkan to do it though. I think it even mentioned that he felt he couldn't win in a straight up fight. Then they found out there was half a dozen more Primorks wandering about.

Ghaz in his current state is a better fighter than Bobby G for sure, but that's not where Gulliman's strength lies. He's the bureaucrat of primarchs. Now Angron, he's probably beat Ghaz in lore and on the tabletop.

panzerfront14 wrote:
Honestly, I'm getting sick of hearing about the Swarmlord or Ghaz getting punked by some Space Marine Captain or Chapter Master, I've had Ghazzy fight Knights and win handily on the Tabletop, I've had the Swarmlord cut through one like swiss cheese, (note, this is not an uncommon occurrence, my friends who use them go out of their way to avoid melee with Swarmie.

Then in the fluff seemingly everyone pushes the Swarmlord's gak in. Now Ghaz gets decapitated by some Space Wolf captain. Are Xenos not allowed to beat Space Marines or something. I recall Ghazzy smashing Belial and a large number of the Deathwing in a battle during the third war of Armageddon. Now he didn't kill Belial but he did cut a bloody path through the Deathwing. Now he kills a couple Wolf Guard then gets his head cut off. Rage.

I know that Lore does not equal gameplay but statwise, Ghaz should handily defeat Gulliman. Why does the lore not reflect this?

Because Ghaz isn't the equal of Primarch. He was kicked off as a joke character for a sample army list. A random roll on a bioniks table saddled him with a head injury that made him delusional, if powerful.
Lorewise he evolved into a decently powerful named warboss, but he still mostly plays Keystone Kops with an aging commissar.

 Denegaar wrote:
Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Tone =\= internal consistency.

If each individual ork was even close to being a match 1:1 with a astartes the Imperium would never win a single battle against them.

That the average boy is basically cannon fodder but there are an endless supply of them is the balancing act that allows the setting to be a bloody stalemate stretching across millenia.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Tone =\= internal consistency.

If each individual ork was even close to being a match 1:1 with a astartes the Imperium would never win a single battle against them.

That the average boy is basically cannon fodder but there are an endless supply of them is the balancing act that allows the setting to be a bloody stalemate stretching across millenia.

I understand and I agree, but a Warboss is not a Boy, they are as big and strong as an Adeptus Astartes fully clad in armor, and Ghazghkull is the strongest of them all... and it basically wears, in addition, a Mek mega armour.

It makes no sense, they wanted to heroically reborn Ragnar as a Primaris miniature to sell the box and that's why they came with such an unbelievable story.

Voss wrote:

panzerfront14 wrote:
Honestly, I'm getting sick of hearing about the Swarmlord or Ghaz getting punked by some Space Marine Captain or Chapter Master, I've had Ghazzy fight Knights and win handily on the Tabletop, I've had the Swarmlord cut through one like swiss cheese, (note, this is not an uncommon occurrence, my friends who use them go out of their way to avoid melee with Swarmie.

Then in the fluff seemingly everyone pushes the Swarmlord's gak in. Now Ghaz gets decapitated by some Space Wolf captain. Are Xenos not allowed to beat Space Marines or something. I recall Ghazzy smashing Belial and a large number of the Deathwing in a battle during the third war of Armageddon. Now he didn't kill Belial but he did cut a bloody path through the Deathwing. Now he kills a couple Wolf Guard then gets his head cut off. Rage.

I know that Lore does not equal gameplay but statwise, Ghaz should handily defeat Gulliman. Why does the lore not reflect this?

Because Ghaz isn't the equal of Primarch. He was kicked off as a joke character for a sample army list. A random roll on a bioniks table saddled him with a head injury that made him delusional, if powerful.
Lorewise he evolved into a decently powerful named warboss, but he still mostly plays Keystone Kops with an aging commissar.

Yup that's exactly how Ghaz came to be, to show you how much fun it was to create an ork character back in the day.

 Denegaar wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Tone =\= internal consistency.

If each individual ork was even close to being a match 1:1 with a astartes the Imperium would never win a single battle against them.

That the average boy is basically cannon fodder but there are an endless supply of them is the balancing act that allows the setting to be a bloody stalemate stretching across millenia.

I understand and I agree, but a Warboss is not a Boy, they are as big and strong as an Adeptus Astartes fully clad in armor, and Ghazghkull is the strongest of them all... and it basically wears, in addition, a Mek mega armour.

It makes no sense, they wanted to heroically reborn Ragnar as a Primaris miniature to sell the box and that's why they came with such an unbelievable story.

So if you acknowledge that Ghaz is on par with a space marine then what's the issue with Ragnar, a particularly fierce and skilled space marine, being able to 1v1 him?

The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Beardedragon wrote:
Lorewise, the strongest ork we have access to and know about, is our man Ghazzy. Ghazghkull, the mighty ork warboss, THE prophet of Gork and Mork, however, basically gets krumped and has his head cut off by some random human space marine officer from the Space Wolves.

He got krumped by some random Mawloc as well (Octarian War), so Ragnar is a big step up for the guy.

Showing your age though - or mine, feelsbadman :( There was a time when you couldn't read an article about space marines without tripping over Ragnar. He was in every space wolf battle report, white dwarf had stories (and at least one cover) featuring him, novels centred around him, any time there was a 'chapters of the astartes' model photo Ragnar was in it. Guy was probably in more stuff than any other marine character.

Yeeeeah, Ragnar is just about the most ferocious fighter the Space Wolves have. He may not be the Chapter Master but that's only thanks to his younger age - smart money is on him being likely to take over if/when Logan Grimnar, the current Great Wolf, kicks the bucket.

Also important to realise is that Ghazzy is not at Beast levels, not yet. It's perfectly reasonable that there are non-Primarch Space Marines that could go toe-to-toe with him - but they're going to be very few and far between, your average brother wouldn't stand a chance. On the other hand, the notion that Guilliman isn't a match for him is patently false.

This is all as things stand right now, mind. Orks have a habit of getting bigger and meaner the more they fight, and Ghaz clearly got a bit of a boost from that fight and the resulting surgery...

Orks are just dumb little greenies. Why would some bigger dumb guy be able to smash Ragnar, THE PRIDE of the SPACE WOLVES.

Check your privilege you filthy xenos scum. The box was named Prophecy of the WoLf, not Prophecy of the BEAST.

The whole setup for that PA is just unbelievably stupid. A great example of the worst GW writing has to offer.

"Let's have them kill each other then both get resurrected!"

"That sounds terrible...oh, who am I kidding, who even cares? Full speed ahead."