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2020/08/27 15:00:00
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Don't have marines ignoring core rules of the game. Nobody can have 2 warlord traits in a single character. Why can Marines? Nobody can deepstrike T1. Why can marines? Nobody can get reroll all hits as an aura. Why can marines?
At least 3 armies off the top of my head that aren't loyalist marines can reroll hits in an aura. As far as the warlord traits go a lot of armies in PA got strats to give out additional warlord traits to nonwarlord models or the ability to give units additional abilities that are similar to warlord traits, such as Harlequins pivotal role strat. So that isn't really unique to marines.
Drop pods can arrive on turn one but are more of a trade off. Yes you can arrive on turn 1 but the drop pod itself ranges from awful to a liability once it arrives. Drop pods breaking the normal reserve rules has been a thing for what a least a decade in GW games IIRC.
What armies can reroll all hits as an aura?
Sure but nobody can have two warlord traits on the same model.
Tyranids have awful drop pods too. Why can't they also drop T1? Also, bs. Drop pods were so stupid they even were able to completely block forward objectives when they lowered the doors and didn't allow enemies to contest them. Or they kept the doors closed and created LoS blocking terrain on demand. Just because they could do whatever the frack they wanted, as marines usually do. Also, tell me how "marines have been breaking core rules of the game for a decade now" is a comfort. In 8th everyone could drop T1. Then they saw how powerful it can be and they limited from everyone....except marines.
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2020/08/27 15:04:34
Subject: Re:Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
This here too. There was almost a 40% drop in attendance about 2 months after the drop of marines 2.0, and that continued on. Interestingly the pandemic gave us a chance to take a breather and regrow our club a bit, as we had people who were previously just online/hobby warhammer fans join in to the pandemic chats and a bunch of them turned into regular players.
Of course, predictably, a few of them are already showing signs of frustration at the continued imbalance. There's already someone quite confused as to how his eldar wraiths could be like this in the game, while Aggressors are very similar statwise but seem to have the firepower to delete a whole guardian squad off the board each...
I can only laugh when an eldar player asks how something can be some level of good. I really don't get why xeno players somehow want to kill the fun marine players of different factions have right now. As historicaly new codex for factions like eldar always ended up much better then the initial marine books anyway. Armies, that were considered casual by eldar player, were beating up a fair share of tournament marine lists, and practicaly everything that was not tournament list. On top of that with the corona in full effect a ton of marine players, don't even get to play their army when it is OP anyway. I got my GKPA book mid Feb, by that time all shops closed and I didn't get to play any games till 9th started with its changes to how GK work.
So after 2+ years of zero fun, I didn't get to enjoy those paladin bombs shoting from inside ruins without LoS and being practicaly unkillable with stratagem stacking. I can imagine there is a ton of salamander or SW players who feel the same. Not to mention those DA players, whose armies in 9th didn't get a lot better, specialy if we consider 2.0 marines as the good tier.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/08/27 15:05:17
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Don't have marines ignoring core rules of the game. Nobody can have 2 warlord traits in a single character. Why can Marines? Nobody can deepstrike T1. Why can marines? Nobody can get reroll all hits as an aura. Why can marines?
At least 3 armies off the top of my head that aren't loyalist marines can reroll hits in an aura. As far as the warlord traits go a lot of armies in PA got strats to give out additional warlord traits to nonwarlord models or the ability to give units additional abilities that are similar to warlord traits, such as Harlequins pivotal role strat. So that isn't really unique to marines.
Drop pods can arrive on turn one but are more of a trade off. Yes you can arrive on turn 1 but the drop pod itself ranges from awful to a liability once it arrives. Drop pods breaking the normal reserve rules has been a thing for what a least a decade in GW games IIRC.
What armies can reroll all hits as an aura?
Sure but nobody can have two warlord traits on the same model. Also armies like Tyranids have to actually give up their warlord traits in order to gain those other abilities.
Tyranids have awful drop pods too. Why can't they also drop T1? Also, bs. Drop pods were so stupid they even were able to completely block forward objectives when they lowered the doors and didn't allow enemies to contest them. Or they kept the doors closed and created LoS blocking terrain on demand. Just because they could do whatever the frack they wanted, as marines usually do. Also, tell me how "marines have been breaking core rules of the game for a decade now" is a comfort. In 8th everyone could drop T1. Then they saw how powerful it can be and they limited from everyone....except marines.
This here too. There was almost a 40% drop in attendance about 2 months after the drop of marines 2.0, and that continued on. Interestingly the pandemic gave us a chance to take a breather and regrow our club a bit, as we had people who were previously just online/hobby warhammer fans join in to the pandemic chats and a bunch of them turned into regular players.
Of course, predictably, a few of them are already showing signs of frustration at the continued imbalance. There's already someone quite confused as to how his eldar wraiths could be like this in the game, while Aggressors are very similar statwise but seem to have the firepower to delete a whole guardian squad off the board each...
I can only laugh when an eldar player asks how something can be some level of good. I really don't get why xeno players somehow want to kill the fun marine players of different factions have right now. As historicaly new codex for factions like eldar always ended up much better then the initial marine books anyway. Armies, that were considered casual by eldar player, were beating up a fair share of tournament marine lists, and practicaly everything that was not tournament list. On top of that with the corona in full effect a ton of marine players, don't even get to play their army when it is OP anyway. I got my GKPA book mid Feb, by that time all shops closed and I didn't get to play any games till 9th started with its changes to how GK work.
So after 2+ years of zero fun, I didn't get to enjoy those paladin bombs shoting from inside ruins without LoS and being practicaly unkillable with stratagem stacking. I can imagine there is a ton of salamander or SW players who feel the same. Not to mention those DA players, whose armies in 9th didn't get a lot better, specialy if we consider 2.0 marines as the good tier.
Pretty sure we're going to get a math analysis on time dilation that will explain how Marines have really only been OP for about 16 days total if you really look into it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/27 15:08:04
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2020/08/27 15:11:18
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
"i don't want the game to be balanced and for nobody to have a list that's miserable to play against, I just want to get to take my turn playing the list that's miserable to play against" is a weird take, but not a surprising one.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/08/27 15:12:44
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
This here too. There was almost a 40% drop in attendance about 2 months after the drop of marines 2.0, and that continued on. Interestingly the pandemic gave us a chance to take a breather and regrow our club a bit, as we had people who were previously just online/hobby warhammer fans join in to the pandemic chats and a bunch of them turned into regular players.
Of course, predictably, a few of them are already showing signs of frustration at the continued imbalance. There's already someone quite confused as to how his eldar wraiths could be like this in the game, while Aggressors are very similar statwise but seem to have the firepower to delete a whole guardian squad off the board each...
I can only laugh when an eldar player asks how something can be some level of good. I really don't get why xeno players somehow want to kill the fun marine players of different factions have right now. As historicaly new codex for factions like eldar always ended up much better then the initial marine books anyway. Armies, that were considered casual by eldar player, were beating up a fair share of tournament marine lists, and practicaly everything that was not tournament list. On top of that with the corona in full effect a ton of marine players, don't even get to play their army when it is OP anyway. I got my GKPA book mid Feb, by that time all shops closed and I didn't get to play any games till 9th started with its changes to how GK work.
So after 2+ years of zero fun, I didn't get to enjoy those paladin bombs shoting from inside ruins without LoS and being practicaly unkillable with stratagem stacking. I can imagine there is a ton of salamander or SW players who feel the same. Not to mention those DA players, whose armies in 9th didn't get a lot better, specialy if we consider 2.0 marines as the good tier.
Are you being serious right now?
You keep missing the point. People that are complaining about marines right now were the same complaining about Eldar when they were the boogeyman.
Its not about marines specifically being OP, its about any army being OP. It sucks to play a one-sided game.
If you really feel like your GK deserve to be "OP" because they sucked so much for a long time, then its a pretty dumb opinion honestly.
No army should be miles ahead of the others. Each army should have a roughly equal chance to win, no matter the matchup (were talking theoretically here, i doubt getting every army at a 50-50 winrate against all matchups is a possible thing).
You really need to play with other people than your playgroup, theyre filling your head with toxic viewpoints. You should really try out Table top simulator.
EDIT: I play eldar and i made a point in 8th of not playing the OP stuff. No shining spears, No flyer spam, no dark reapers. In fact, i played a wraith host for most of 8th, even before the PA actually made it viable. I still complained about basically one list being viable for the codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 15:29:35
2020/08/27 15:30:40
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was giving reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Sure but nobody can have two warlord traits on the same model. Also armies like Tyranids have to actually give up their warlord traits in order to gain those other abilities.
No offense but I find it amusing that your counter example of Nids getting screwed is over the ability to give up relics to give upgrades to non character units, which marines can't do.
Tyranids have awful drop pods too. Why can't they also drop T1? Also, bs. Drop pods were so stupid they even were able to completely block forward objectives when they lowered the doors and didn't allow enemies to contest them. Or they kept the doors closed and created LoS blocking terrain on demand. Just because they could do whatever the frack they wanted, as marines usually do. Also, tell me how "marines have been breaking core rules of the game for a decade now" is a comfort. In 8th everyone could drop T1. Then they saw how powerful it can be and they limited from everyone....except marines.
Who knows why GW didn't give that to nid pods. Also the problems you outlay with pods have more to due with the design of the model then the rules really. That model has created issues for years with some SM players gluing their doors in place and other always dropping them. Most sane players I have played over the years game up with house rules to deal with those issues and moved on with their lives. So Marines have a unit that breaks the core rules. Who cares? Every army does that.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/08/27 15:37:27
2020/08/27 15:37:20
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
2020/08/27 15:39:33
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/27 15:42:06
2020/08/27 15:43:53
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
theres more to the game than the shooting phase. I would love to play Admech with melee threats that get full rerolls. Same with my CSM.
In 9th more than ever, the full reroll in all phases is super relevant.
And Tau, a shooting only army that hits on 4 gets it for 1 shooting phase. While SM get it in all their phases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 15:45:03
2020/08/27 15:47:41
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
theres more to the game than the shooting phase. I would love to play Admech with melee threats that get full rerolls. Same with my CSM.
In 9th more than ever, the full reroll in all phases is super relevant.
And Tau, a shooting only army that hits on 4 gets it for 1 shooting phase. While SM get it in all their phases.
CSM have Abaddon the Despoiler which gives reroll all hits. He is your CM style character. The other legions don't get it for some reason but the ability does exist in that codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 15:49:53
2020/08/27 15:54:26
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
theres more to the game than the shooting phase. I would love to play Admech with melee threats that get full rerolls. Same with my CSM.
In 9th more than ever, the full reroll in all phases is super relevant.
And Tau, a shooting only army that hits on 4 gets it for 1 shooting phase. While SM get it in all their phases.
CSM have Abaddon the Despoiler which gives reroll all hits.
No, Black Legion has Abaddon. He does jack diddley for the other eight Legions. And since you think loyalist drop pods coming down on turn is perfectly fine I guess you wouldn't complain if when the new fw books are finally released Dreadclaws and Kharybdis Assault Claws get the same rule?
Edit: Oh goody, another stealth editor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 15:55:44
2020/08/27 15:54:44
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
250 point subfaction-locked named character, only for shooting
500 point named character
500 point named character
250 point subfaction-locked named character
once per game ability, only for shooting
2CP stratagem on 68pt generic character.
one of these things is not like the others...one of these things just doesn't belong.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/08/27 15:59:25
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
250 point subfaction-locked named character, only for shooting
500 point named character
500 point named character
250 point subfaction-locked named character
once per game ability, only for shooting
2CP stratagem on 68pt generic character.
one of these things is not like the others...one of these things just doesn't belong.
Got to agree, 2cp is too cheap, at least if it must exist, make it a separate entry with a points value.
2020/08/27 16:00:48
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Gadzilla666 wrote:Edit: Oh goody, another stealth editor.
Not my fault you can't handle my mad skills.
the_scotsman wrote:
250 point subfaction-locked named character, only for shooting
500 point named character
500 point named character
250 point subfaction-locked named character
once per game ability, only for shooting
2CP stratagem on 68pt generic character.
one of these things is not like the others...one of these things just doesn't belong.
Once again I would agree that the CM strat is better than the others. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets changed again in October.
2020/08/27 16:02:17
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
250 point subfaction-locked named character, only for shooting
500 point named character
500 point named character
250 point subfaction-locked named character
once per game ability, only for shooting
2CP stratagem on 68pt generic character.
one of these things is not like the others...one of these things just doesn't belong.
Got to agree, 2cp is too cheap, at least if it must exist, make it a separate entry with a points value.
There are a ton of abilities that I find it incredibly strange GW decided that they would use the command point system instead of the points system to represent them. It's just embarrassing to see every chapter master in the game currently sitting around basically butt-naked waving a butterknife while his buddy Captain Chad Thundercock has 15 warlord traits, a relic, and the best equipment the chapter can provide.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/08/27 16:02:31
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Dudeface wrote: Got to agree, 2cp is too cheap, at least if it must exist, make it a separate entry with a points value.
I would love a separate entry honestly. A lot of strats should just be upgrades purchased with pts.
I would love for flat rerolls everything to go away. Yes from everyone. gak shouldn't have ~100% accuracy else what's the point of having a ballistic skill in the first place?
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2020/08/27 16:06:54
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Off the top of my head? Tau, CSM, and Ad Mec for starters. CM strat exists because most of the chapters represented in codex space marine don't have rules for their named CM in the game and GW in the index was gives reroll hits out like candy to all the CM type special characters in the game. Reroll hits is not unique to marines.
Tau get it once per game, twice if they pick shadowsun.
Ad mech only gets it in shooting, not in melee and overwatch. Oh and only for mars on a named character.
CSM get it if you give a specific warlord trait to a black legion chaos lord in a (now illegal in tournament) specialist detachment?. Or purge but only on infantry and dreads against already wounded models.
So they don't really get the cheap, always on, full reroll that marines get as an aura.
It is still reroll all hits when it counts (the shooting phase). If you want to claim the Codex Space Marine reroll all hits aura is better than some others I would agree. It is not unique to that codex however.
250 point subfaction-locked named character, only for shooting
500 point named character
500 point named character
250 point subfaction-locked named character
once per game ability, only for shooting
2CP stratagem on 68pt generic character.
one of these things is not like the others...one of these things just doesn't belong.
But he's not saying all re-roll auras are the same, he's saying they aren't unique because that was the original claim. That's been disproven. This is a kind of different discussion.
Also, just based on what I'm seeing on this page, people realize Marines are actually rarely the dominant faction? At least for the last few years. Guilliman castles in the Index era and the Supplement era. That's about it. They were getting crushed in 7th (top armies were Eldar and Renegades & Heretics) and post-Index 8th (which aside from Eldar dominance was fairly balanced until the supplements dropped).
Even now, Space Marines aren't monolithic. Dark Eldar are proving quite strong as are Harlequins. AdMech is considered a top army. Custodes are out performing Marines.
It needs some work, but we're not at supplement levels and if folks are playing some of these factions and getting discouraged by Marines the issue is probably in list building or piloting. We're basically entering into the age old debate of whether balance changes should be based on the top level or all levels.
2020/08/27 17:25:18
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
I would love for flat rerolls everything to go away. Yes from everyone. gak shouldn't have ~100% accuracy else what's the point of having a ballistic skill in the first place?
yeah, reroll all hits is too much. I dont even mind the power level but having aggressors shoot + overwatch in the same turn makes me want to pull my eyes out.
I'd change it to something like this :
Captains/Lords: Give 1 squad rerolls of 1 to hit.
Chapter master/Possible Lord++ : Give 2 squads rerolls of 1 to hit.
Designate the unit(s) in the command phase.
2020/08/27 17:28:41
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Dudeface wrote: It's OK I have numerous people telling me in the other threads that we don't separate out marines and as such we must declare marines are actually average.
Well, if you fold all those together you end up with ~58% iirc, so not average and still really good. Not as good as Harlies, but certainly not merely average by this data.
EDIT
Oh wait, I see SM are there at 52%, that's not too bad.
28% of the field is Space Marines. 28%. Every SM/SM mirror match conceals the imbalance by adding 1 loss and 1 win, driving it towards 50. It's 58% or so I head from people with the data if you eliminate mirror matchups.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2020/08/27 17:31:58
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
But he's not saying all re-roll auras are the same, he's saying they aren't unique because that was the original claim. That's been disproven. This is a kind of different discussion.
Also, just based on what I'm seeing on this page, people realize Marines are actually rarely the dominant faction? At least for the last few years. Guilliman castles in the Index era and the Supplement era. That's about it. They were getting crushed in 7th (top armies were Eldar and Renegades & Heretics) and post-Index 8th (which aside from Eldar dominance was fairly balanced until the supplements dropped).
Even now, Space Marines aren't monolithic. Dark Eldar are proving quite strong as are Harlequins. AdMech is considered a top army. Custodes are out performing Marines.
It needs some work, but we're not at supplement levels and if folks are playing some of these factions and getting discouraged by Marines the issue is probably in list building or piloting. We're basically entering into the age old debate of whether balance changes should be based on the top level or all levels.
Yeah we know its not unique, were just poiting out how trivial it is for marines to access it compared to other armies.
Doesn`t matter if theyre rarely dominant, they are right now and people live in the present.
Dark Eldar are fine with a singular build.
Harlequins are basically a new army so not many people are used to playing against them also, their meta presence is abyssmal and they do really well against the intercessor big bolters (4 -2 2).
Agreed that admech and custodes are strong.
The problem isnt in list or piloting. They just get so many more stats for free over other armies that its never on an even playing field. They have close to 60% winrate in current tournaments (including mirror matches).
Marines are strong at any level, thats the problem. If they were only OP in tournaments then it wouldnt be as bad. Right now, even in ultra casual games with cool looking models, they overperform. Meanwhile, drukhari has to forego 2/3 of their codex to be on the same powerlevel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 17:32:28
2020/08/27 18:44:19
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
But he's not saying all re-roll auras are the same, he's saying they aren't unique because that was the original claim. That's been disproven. This is a kind of different discussion.
Also, just based on what I'm seeing on this page, people realize Marines are actually rarely the dominant faction? At least for the last few years. Guilliman castles in the Index era and the Supplement era. That's about it. They were getting crushed in 7th (top armies were Eldar and Renegades & Heretics) and post-Index 8th (which aside from Eldar dominance was fairly balanced until the supplements dropped).
Even now, Space Marines aren't monolithic. Dark Eldar are proving quite strong as are Harlequins. AdMech is considered a top army. Custodes are out performing Marines.
It needs some work, but we're not at supplement levels and if folks are playing some of these factions and getting discouraged by Marines the issue is probably in list building or piloting. We're basically entering into the age old debate of whether balance changes should be based on the top level or all levels.
Yeah we know its not unique, were just poiting out how trivial it is for marines to access it compared to other armies.
Doesn`t matter if theyre rarely dominant, they are right now and people live in the present.
Dark Eldar are fine with a singular build.
Harlequins are basically a new army so not many people are used to playing against them also, their meta presence is abyssmal and they do really well against the intercessor big bolters (4 -2 2).
Agreed that admech and custodes are strong.
The problem isnt in list or piloting. They just get so many more stats for free over other armies that its never on an even playing field. They have close to 60% winrate in current tournaments (including mirror matches).
Marines are strong at any level, thats the problem. If they were only OP in tournaments then it wouldnt be as bad. Right now, even in ultra casual games with cool looking models, they overperform. Meanwhile, drukhari has to forego 2/3 of their codex to be on the same powerlevel.
52% isn't close to 60%. They're not that strong. 3 Space Marine factions have an over 50% win rate. All other Space Marine factions are BELOW 50%. They're losing more than they're winning.
The kit is fine I think. There's some faction uniques out of whack.
2020/08/27 23:48:28
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Don't have marines ignoring core rules of the game. Nobody can have 2 warlord traits in a single character. Why can Marines? Nobody can deepstrike T1. Why can marines? Nobody can get reroll all hits as an aura. Why can marines?
At least 3 armies off the top of my head that aren't loyalist marines can reroll hits in an aura. As far as the warlord traits go a lot of armies in PA got strats to give out additional warlord traits to nonwarlord models or the ability to give units additional abilities that are similar to warlord traits, such as Harlequins pivotal role strat. So that isn't really unique to marines.
Drop pods can arrive on turn one but are more of a trade off. Yes you can arrive on turn 1 but the drop pod itself ranges from awful to a liability once it arrives. Drop pods breaking the normal reserve rules has been a thing for what a least a decade in GW games IIRC.
Nids have a drop pod aswell.
It does not get to break the normal reserve rules, because it is not a space marine...
2020/08/28 03:55:07
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
But he's not saying all re-roll auras are the same, he's saying they aren't unique because that was the original claim. That's been disproven. This is a kind of different discussion.
Also, just based on what I'm seeing on this page, people realize Marines are actually rarely the dominant faction? At least for the last few years. Guilliman castles in the Index era and the Supplement era. That's about it. They were getting crushed in 7th (top armies were Eldar and Renegades & Heretics) and post-Index 8th (which aside from Eldar dominance was fairly balanced until the supplements dropped).
Even now, Space Marines aren't monolithic. Dark Eldar are proving quite strong as are Harlequins. AdMech is considered a top army. Custodes are out performing Marines.
It needs some work, but we're not at supplement levels and if folks are playing some of these factions and getting discouraged by Marines the issue is probably in list building or piloting. We're basically entering into the age old debate of whether balance changes should be based on the top level or all levels.
Yeah we know its not unique, were just poiting out how trivial it is for marines to access it compared to other armies.
Doesn`t matter if theyre rarely dominant, they are right now and people live in the present.
Dark Eldar are fine with a singular build.
Harlequins are basically a new army so not many people are used to playing against them also, their meta presence is abyssmal and they do really well against the intercessor big bolters (4 -2 2).
Agreed that admech and custodes are strong.
The problem isnt in list or piloting. They just get so many more stats for free over other armies that its never on an even playing field. They have close to 60% winrate in current tournaments (including mirror matches).
Marines are strong at any level, thats the problem. If they were only OP in tournaments then it wouldnt be as bad. Right now, even in ultra casual games with cool looking models, they overperform. Meanwhile, drukhari has to forego 2/3 of their codex to be on the same powerlevel.
52% isn't close to 60%. They're not that strong. 3 Space Marine factions have an over 50% win rate. All other Space Marine factions are BELOW 50%. They're losing more than they're winning.
The kit is fine I think. There's some faction uniques out of whack.
They're losing to other marines. The actual marine rate is apparently like 58% after deleting the mirrored matches.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2020/08/28 05:39:07
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Don't have marines ignoring core rules of the game. Nobody can have 2 warlord traits in a single character. Why can Marines? Nobody can deepstrike T1. Why can marines? Nobody can get reroll all hits as an aura. Why can marines?
At least 3 armies off the top of my head that aren't loyalist marines can reroll hits in an aura. As far as the warlord traits go a lot of armies in PA got strats to give out additional warlord traits to nonwarlord models or the ability to give units additional abilities that are similar to warlord traits, such as Harlequins pivotal role strat. So that isn't really unique to marines.
Drop pods can arrive on turn one but are more of a trade off. Yes you can arrive on turn 1 but the drop pod itself ranges from awful to a liability once it arrives. Drop pods breaking the normal reserve rules has been a thing for what a least a decade in GW games IIRC.
Nids have a drop pod aswell.
It does not get to break the normal reserve rules, because it is not a space marine...
The Nid pod has LOTS of advantages. It can carry Monsters as large as the Tervigon/Tyrannofex. It can carry 20 infantry models instead of 10. It has better armament, and can move after it's landed like a normal unit, flies, and can assault stuff to be a total troll.
The Marine Pod is very good, but very specialized. I have both armies and I think they're both good units.
I did find it hilarious that the Necrons didn't even appear on their list when i read that article.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2020/08/28 12:57:29
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
Don't have marines ignoring core rules of the game. Nobody can have 2 warlord traits in a single character. Why can Marines? Nobody can deepstrike T1. Why can marines? Nobody can get reroll all hits as an aura. Why can marines?
At least 3 armies off the top of my head that aren't loyalist marines can reroll hits in an aura. As far as the warlord traits go a lot of armies in PA got strats to give out additional warlord traits to nonwarlord models or the ability to give units additional abilities that are similar to warlord traits, such as Harlequins pivotal role strat. So that isn't really unique to marines.
Drop pods can arrive on turn one but are more of a trade off. Yes you can arrive on turn 1 but the drop pod itself ranges from awful to a liability once it arrives. Drop pods breaking the normal reserve rules has been a thing for what a least a decade in GW games IIRC.
Nids have a drop pod aswell.
It does not get to break the normal reserve rules, because it is not a space marine...
The Nid pod has LOTS of advantages. It can carry Monsters as large as the Tervigon/Tyrannofex. It can carry 20 infantry models instead of 10. It has better armament, and can move after it's landed like a normal unit, flies, and can assault stuff to be a total troll.
The Marine Pod is very good, but very specialized. I have both armies and I think they're both good units.
RAW today, the Nid pod can't even transport monsters. Ignoring that, with the smaller board size and changes to 9th... I think the Nid pod is one of the worst units in the game. Maybe at the end of 8th with the larger board and the point cuts, it was okay, but now it's just putrid. Meanwhile, the SM drop pod has always been good; it was too expensive for much of 8th and didn't have great payloads, but the point cuts and the turn 1 drop and the strong Sternguard options makes it great. I don't think there's a comparison here.
2020/08/28 13:20:22
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
RAW today, the Nid pod can't even transport monsters. Ignoring that, with the smaller board size and changes to 9th... I think the Nid pod is one of the worst units in the game. Maybe at the end of 8th with the larger board and the point cuts, it was okay, but now it's just putrid. Meanwhile, the SM drop pod has always been good; it was too expensive for much of 8th and didn't have great payloads, but the point cuts and the turn 1 drop and the strong Sternguard options makes it great. I don't think there's a comparison here.
why couldnt it carry monsters?
2020/08/28 13:52:27
Subject: Xenos (Harlequins) Best Army In 9th So Far
But he's not saying all re-roll auras are the same, he's saying they aren't unique because that was the original claim. That's been disproven. This is a kind of different discussion.
Also, just based on what I'm seeing on this page, people realize Marines are actually rarely the dominant faction? At least for the last few years. Guilliman castles in the Index era and the Supplement era. That's about it. They were getting crushed in 7th (top armies were Eldar and Renegades & Heretics) and post-Index 8th (which aside from Eldar dominance was fairly balanced until the supplements dropped).
Even now, Space Marines aren't monolithic. Dark Eldar are proving quite strong as are Harlequins. AdMech is considered a top army. Custodes are out performing Marines.
It needs some work, but we're not at supplement levels and if folks are playing some of these factions and getting discouraged by Marines the issue is probably in list building or piloting. We're basically entering into the age old debate of whether balance changes should be based on the top level or all levels.
Yeah we know its not unique, were just poiting out how trivial it is for marines to access it compared to other armies.
Doesn`t matter if theyre rarely dominant, they are right now and people live in the present.
Dark Eldar are fine with a singular build.
Harlequins are basically a new army so not many people are used to playing against them also, their meta presence is abyssmal and they do really well against the intercessor big bolters (4 -2 2).
Agreed that admech and custodes are strong.
The problem isnt in list or piloting. They just get so many more stats for free over other armies that its never on an even playing field. They have close to 60% winrate in current tournaments (including mirror matches).
Marines are strong at any level, thats the problem. If they were only OP in tournaments then it wouldnt be as bad. Right now, even in ultra casual games with cool looking models, they overperform. Meanwhile, drukhari has to forego 2/3 of their codex to be on the same powerlevel.
52% isn't close to 60%. They're not that strong. 3 Space Marine factions have an over 50% win rate. All other Space Marine factions are BELOW 50%. They're losing more than they're winning.
The kit is fine I think. There's some faction uniques out of whack.
They're losing to other marines. The actual marine rate is apparently like 58% after deleting the mirrored matches.
As far as I know, no one has actually calculated that and it's all conjecture. The 58% or 56% came from not factoring in Dark Angels and Deathwatch, who are both in the 30%'s.
Remember, mirror matches can also make win rates HIGHER. If Salamanders are disproportionately good at killing other Marines and 1/3 of the Marines are Salamanders, as an example, that 1/3 is gonna get a boost which is then factored into the overall Marine win rate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/28 13:54:36
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