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yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine

Let's be blunt here... this IS absolutely a whine. It's just a valid one that no-one's going to disagree with you on.

I don't see the point to it. As others have said, the rules don't really fit the Marines theme to me, and everything about the model - the armour/robe-off combo, the odd helmet, the sword - whether you like the model or not, it doesn't fit with anything in the rest of the range.
It also wasn't even necessary in the Indomitus box - it already had a bad-ass looking Captain, Chaplain and Ancient. I still want that Chaplain even though it's not a "new" unit, and the box also has entirely new units outside the characters, so it's not like the "must have new stuff" argument applies here.

I actually ended up not getting the box because I actively didn't want that Judiciar (or the Bladeguard vets) - were it just the Necron half, I'd have sold that off, but selling off that much just makes it an easier prospect for me to wait until the other units are available separately.

Apple fox wrote:
I think the hourglass is bad as well, it’s held on a chain and seems too magic artefact for marines that are not psychic. At least with the head swap it’s a better looking model. And I have seen a few with a not derp sword as well that just improves the model as a whole.

I might be missing something here, but what's derp about the sword?

The square "tip".

It's intentionally evocative of executioner's swords.

Yeah, the sword looking like a very heavy, and tipless blade is actually pretty accurate for an executioner's sword.

Huh.

Obviously makes sense to use an executioners blade in the M41 in the thick of melee with impossible alien beings and power armour.

Clearly an excellent artistic choice by GW. Very inkeeping with the rest of the Imperiums weapons.

If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

 Dysartes wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I think the hourglass is bad as well, it’s held on a chain and seems too magic artefact for marines that are not psychic. At least with the head swap it’s a better looking model. And I have seen a few with a not derp sword as well that just improves the model as a whole.

I might be missing something here, but what's derp about the sword?

Honestly I think it just looks bad, and being that the model is ceremonial. And a lot of flat blades come from ceremonial combat and specific martial arts it looks with the rest of the peace mis designed.
The blade itself could be used in combat, but one handed and with a unwieldy weapon it all comes off as a whole very meh. When they would be far more effective with a normal length blade, as well as a point in combat being effective for a number of reasons. Probably leads to a lot of deaths.

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

If that's the case where is the point on the Power Axe that would make it less effective? Not having a point on a sword has some advantages in real life, and maybe has some here too.

 harlokin wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

If that's the case where is the point on the Power Axe that would make it less effective? Not having a point on a sword has some advantages in real life, and maybe has some here too.

That you would probably need to ask GW, but for the lack of a point on a sword is mostly lost once you make it too big. As they do sharpen the ends of flat blades as well. But there is a reason that they are considered unusual and often ceremonial.

 Super Ready wrote:

I don't see the point to it. As others have said, the rules don't really fit the Marines theme to me, and everything about the model - the armour/robe-off combo, the odd helmet, the sword - whether you like the model or not, it doesn't fit with anything in the rest of the range.

Yeah this is a core issue with the model.

Even if you justify it as being an expansion on the Chaplain side of Marines, it looks absolutely nothing like Chaplains.

The idea of the Hourglass too is just... really bizarre as well. I'm not against an Imperial unit carrying around something like that, but with that sort of power it has to be some incredibly advanced DAoT relic or some advanced Xenotech artifact that has been re-purposed. Which is fine.... but what, does EVERY single Marine chapter have one or possible more of these things in their possession? This is the sort of thing I'd imagine Grey Knights having access too, or maybe an Inquisitor and their retinue, not thousands of different Space Marine chapters.

I also don't understand how it fits in with the overall idea/theme of the character either. I guess there's a Executioner time-is-running-out-for-you type deal going on but that's a little spurious.

 Blackie wrote:
I think SM needed the Judiciar more than Eradicators or Outriders. I don't see many SM lists with dedicated CC units while there was already a ton of shooty units, even fast ones, before the new buggies and melta guys.

Last but not least the Judiciar is the only primaris model ever made that I actually like, so I can't consider him as something that wasn't needed

When given the choice between shooting and melee, in 40k shooting is pretty much always better. Marine armies are not lacking CC units because they don't have them, but because their shooting units are so much better. (And after Marine 2.0 and shock assault even a basic marine is as good as many CC expert units).

And the Judiciar doesn't change that. Bladeguard vets, who are also hilariously undercosted, do much more for adding CC units to marines. Not because they are so good, which they are, but because your getting a 2+/4++ 3w model for 35 points, that happens to have a good CC weapon by accident.

Space Marines have lost any kind of flavor, the whole faction feels like a bunch of stronger than usual models put together so the fanboys can build whatever army they want consistant of armored dudes.
I understand that an "easy to play" army has to exist in a game like this, but even in the case it should have strenghts and weaknesses, but the later ones are so diluted nowadays that it makes no sense.
The Judiciar is just another nail in the coffin that is game balance. How long is going to take so we can see a Salamander Captain riding some kind of xenos Dragon or a completely transformed Wulfen monstrosity in Terminator armor? They seem to don't care for anything that is not sales.
I hope that this madness stops with the new release of the SM codex and all the PA and Supplement nonsense comes to an end so we can have a "normal" edition.

I mean they both sound like fab model ideas, Denegaar! Would not be against.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I mean they both sound like fab model ideas, Denegaar! Would not be against.

Looking at how they make stuff lately, it sure will happen! Even a filthy Xenos player like me would buy a Terminator Werewolf with a backpack and enhanced claws. They could put a melta rifle mounted in its back for extra cheese.

It is a nice model to make captins, librarians, chaplains and champions of different kinds.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:Huh.

Obviously makes sense to use an executioners blade in the M41 in the thick of melee with impossible alien beings and power armour.

Clearly an excellent artistic choice by GW. Very inkeeping with the rest of the Imperiums weapons.

If this is sarcastic, can I also mention how it obviously makes sense that the Imperium puts so much emphasis on melee weaponry and bayonet charges against impossible alien beings and ultra-thick power armour?

If we're going to look down on "this weapon is clearly ceremonial and would be useless in combat!", surely the same extends to literally every melee weapon wielded, because why use melee when you have such excellent technology as meltaguns and plasma?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

In prior editions, they didn't. Hell, we have sword looking weapons (like this Executioner blade!) that have better stats than axes and mauls - if it's all in the shape, why are those swords better?

Which is why I don't use the rules to justify fluff.

I don't care about the shape of the weapon, I care about the fact that Space Marines got dolled out an extremely powerful trick that used to be basically restricted to relics and stratagems for a very small selections of factions - without the need for a relic slot or CP usage - for no discernible reason besides "we made the model, now we gotta give it some sick rules."

They did not NEED it, they just wanted to give marines a new "hero" and this is one of the few useful special rules they didn't have. Who knows, maybe after this round of primaris we get primaris flyers.

They will replace the entire firstborn line with primaris and won't stop the focus on SMs until they have done so.

In the meantime, armies like custodes are awfully unfinished, and others have a good range of miniatures but no rules to help them (eldar?). Though, to be fair, they are pretty ancient.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

Executionner swords were basically sword shaped axes historically.

Why the Judiciar model? Because he is cool. You can nitpick lots of details, but in the end, he just looks cool.

Why is he chaplain in training instead of a primaris company champion? You got me.

Why does he have have a device that allows him cause an enemy unit to ASL? Because he's holding a friggin' hourglass and an executioner's sword. What else is the darn thing going to do that makes any sense at all? It slows down the enemy so that he can give out some of the Emperor's justice. See how it all comes together in one package?

 Oaka wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

I might be missing something here, but what's derp about the sword?

Spoiler:

inscription on the blade: Wan Ich Das Schwert thue Auffheben - So Wünsche Ich Dem Sünder Das Ewige Leben "When this sword I do lift - I wish the sinner the eternal life as gift."

Both are examples of executioner swords circa Europe.


This has already been discussed fairly in depth. Yeah, it's a weird design for a combat unit...but the Judiciar isn't just a combat position. And most executioners don't get an hourglass that can stop time within a locality.

Yeah, the background explaining where the time-manipulating hourglasses came from should be interesting.

I wonder if this means the Chapter Serfs can't boil eggs any more...

a_typical_hero wrote:
I dislike the model and the rules. Feels to me that it does not belong to Space Marines and too "gamey" in design for lack of a better word.

I would like a Primaris Company Champion (on bike) without any additional rules much more. And I don't even need the model for it. Just allow it as an option and call one of the many Lieutenants a Company Champion model.

This. They should have just made it a primaris champ or lt, maybe with a different wargear piece. (Though I do like the model). (Writing as a marine player) marines are already so spoiled for elite and hq characters/specialists, they really didn't need another design for those slots.

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, the background explaining where the time-manipulating hourglasses came from should be interesting.

I wonder if this means the Chapter Serfs can't boil eggs any more...

Don't the imperial inquisition and squats use temporal equipment and weapons? Looks like the tech heretic Cawl started cloning equipment he had no right to clone.

Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

The point about charging is fair, but I really REALLY like Chaplain models, and I hate the Judiciar model.
The facehelmet thing isn't exactly close, and the robe being half-off is silly. I don't see any reason for having one pauldron - but then I don't like the pauldron-less look of Incursors and the like anyway. The hourglass I can give or take, but I understand other players' gripes with it.

Basically every gripe I (and others) have with the model is not reflected with Chaplains. You've just picked up on the fact they both come in black, which isn't the issue.

Karol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, the background explaining where the time-manipulating hourglasses came from should be interesting.

I wonder if this means the Chapter Serfs can't boil eggs any more...

Don't the imperial inquisition and squats use temporal equipment and weapons? Looks like the tech heretic Cawl started cloning equipment he had no right to clone.

...not as a general rule, no.

There's a limited amount of stasis weaponry kicking about - I think Lukas the Trickster has a stasis bomb wired to go off if he is killed, for example - but they're neither common, nor selective. If this was a "normal" stasis weapon, everyone would be striking last, not just the enemy.

I think a primaris champion rules would had been more fitting. Even the model, just remove the hourglass and give it a shield