Why did space marines need the judiciar?

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**catbarf**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Just compare Primaris Social Distancing Chaplain to Salamanders Chaplain Xavier, from back in the day. Chaplain Xavier is carrying Vulkan's Sigil, a venerated relic of the chapter. Sure, it looks like a hammer, but he doesn't actually hammer anyone with it. Even though it's shaped like a hammer. No, it's a holy icon that has boosts the morale of nearby Salamanders. If he needs to whack some enemies, he's got his crozius for that. Wouldn't want to break Vulkan's Sigil, a venerated relic of the chapter.

Now take Social Distancing Chaplain. He is also carrying what looks like a relic. But this one is shaped like an hourglass. So obviously it literally stops time with space magic. Because nowadays every single little bit and bob needs to be interpreted literally.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

catbarf wrote:
leather gloves over power armor (???)
[...]
The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own

Sisters of Battle envy lol.

**Karol**

catbarf wrote:

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

To me a chaplain is like Bishop Otto of Bamberg. A religious leader who also liked to put on an armour, mount a horse and start whaloping people on the head with his war mace. He also had a skull faced enclosed helmet, or at least he worse one at the battle of Pyrzyce as chronicals say, with which he struck fear in the pagan Pomeranians. A warrior,noble man, bishop, chancelor to emperor Henry the 4th and also a saint of catholic church.

The judicar on the other hand is more like knightly orders chaplains, who were both warriors and responsible for keeping the convenant laws in some orders. Like for example in the Knights of st Andrew.

**Dudeface**

catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

The gloves over armour is really common for both sisters and chaos. I'm sure over the years some loyalist marines have had them as well.

**Karol**

You would wear gloves over metal armour, at least in historical settings. If you were operating in cold or rainy weather, to get better grip on a pole ax or other pole weapon.

**catbarf**

I know the gloves-over-armor thing has cropped up before- never been a fan, personally- but wearing what looks like a bandana over the skull mask is borderline farcical. What's next, Incursors with balaclavas over their helmets?

**the_scotsman**

Karol wrote:
You would wear gloves over metal armour, at least in historical settings. If you were operating in cold or rainy weather, to get better grip on a
pole ax or other pole weapon.

Or like.

I don't know.

Maybe a big sword.

**Xenomancers**

Because every marine army needed armor of russ. Duh!

I agree it is silly. I do include one in my army though to escort my 2 units of BG to the target. I wouldn't worry to much - if a marine army is choosing melee elements over shooting ones they are helping you win.

**the_scotsman**

catbarf wrote:
I know the gloves-over-armor thing has cropped up before- never been a fan, personally- but wearing what looks like a bandana over the skull mask is borderline farcical. What's next, Incursors with balaclavas over their helmets?

Seems less silly than ANYONE wearing a hyperadvanced super duper space armor suit and NOT a helmet for said suit.

**catbarf**

Karol wrote:
You would wear gloves over metal armour, at least in historical settings. If you were operating in cold or rainy weather, to get better grip on a pole ax or other pole weapon.

Gauntlets for plate armor were most commonly leather gloves with articulated, riveted plates attached to the exterior surfaces; you need a gripping surface regardless of the weather. I've never heard of nor seen forearm-length gloves worn over plate gauntlets. I would like to see a source on that.

Edit: Mail isn't different, either. The two most common designs of mail gauntlet are either a mail glove with leather sewn into the inward surfaces, or a leather glove with mail sewn into the outward surfaces. This is basic battlefield equipment we're talking about; you don't omit design features as basic as 'being able to grip your weapon'.

And man, if the grip surfaces on Marine armor are so bad that wearing animal hide over top provides a substantial improvement in handling, it makes you wonder how all the non-gloved Marines were getting along with bolters, swords, and heavy weapons in the first place.

**Xenomancers**

catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

Judicar is fething ugly. Agreed.

**Bosskelot**

If this incredibly advanced power armour cannot protect against the cold or stop the wearer from gripping weapons properly, then the Imperium's technological backwardness is more pronounced than I thought.

I dunno how the Space Wolves managed all these years without gloves. :^)

**Karol**

Bosskelot wrote:
If this incredibly advanced power armour cannot protect against the cold or stop the wearer from gripping weapons properly, then the Imperium's technological backwardness is more pronounced than I thought.

I dunno how the Space Wolves managed all these years without gloves. :^)

It is not about the cold. It is about stuff sliping from your hands. Take a hoe, wet your hands and try swining it for 15min, which is the avarge time of a melee engagment, bad things will happen. And on the battle field you are in a formation, you really don't want your hand to slip and wack a friend on the head with a pole ax. Now I know that XIIIth century is not the same as the 40th milenium, but I take this as licencia poetica. Just like sanguinior doesn't really need wings on his jump pack to fly. He does need them, because he is suppose to be an Angel. A chaplain or Judicar is a scifi medival knight, and there for gloves on power armour are okey. From what I understand about what SW are based on, they would not wear gloves. Sailors don't wear gloves, because you REALLY don't want to have leather impregnated with salt from sea water on your hands for hours. It would be like having sand paper on your hands. They should have more leather masks and nasal protection on their helmets, if they were suppose to be space vikinings.

**catbarf**

Karol wrote:
Now I know that XIIIth century is not the same as the 40th milenium, but I take this as licencia poetica. (...) A chaplain or Judicar is a scifi medival knight, and there for gloves on power armour are okey.

Here's a 13th century knight.

Here's another.

Here's a 14th century counterpart.

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

**Apple fox**

the_scotsman wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Why they needed him? Cool sword.

Why his rules weren't based on, say, the Executioner from CSM and are instead the way way better rules that they are?

You know why.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, the Judicar carrying a semi-impractical melee weapon (even though it existed in our real life world, in some capacity) should be right at home in a narrative full of people carrying massively impractical melee weapons.

If we're talking about "grounding within their own narrative", that is.

You realise that is the reason I said I think it just looks bad, and I gave reasons why I thought it did on top of just looking bad.

But, with space marines it’s a constant of mah fantasy until something comes up and suddenly it’s all realism and justification.

I mean I'm on the marine players side here but I know their opinions on """"""""""""""""""realism""""""""""""""""" when it comes to...other stuff. Other stuff like organ transplants in the year M41 having to obey imaginary rules that organ transplants don't have to obey today in M3.

Need a thumbs Up emote, my English is not the best but I think you understand me here. I think it’s just not a very good looking model, and a lot of that is based in the way some of it’s design is done.
Considering how many conversions I have seen, and how positive the changes are with just simple head and weapon swaps I don’t think I am really that different.

it's fine. It's got some things I just have to laugh at: An Hourglass, an item you use by turning it end-over-end, being suspended by the top with a chain....what does he do when the sand falls to the bottom, just, awkwardly kind of try to yo-yo it up into his one free hand so he can hold it the other way round? Also, the fact he's wearing a Skull Mask isn't immediately obvious because of the bandanna so it just looks like he's got voldemort face...

but like, come on. A realism complaint about his huge fething sword? In Warhammer goddamn forty thousand?

I happen to prefer when they take a more grounded and realistic Aproach to how space marines and other creatures move in universe. Even in a crazy setting you can have that as part of your consistency. Even with demons and monsters.

It’s the exact same complaint as with the hourglass , the way it functions and to the design of the model to yo yo it up, is a realism complaint.

**Kayback**

A guillotine was also used for executions. Should one of those be considered a viable weapon now?

There is a large difference between realistic and believable. Is it realistic to use a chainsaw in combat? Not really but it's believable in universe with the correct technobabble. What's essentially a slightly sharpened plank sword? No. Even given the strength enhancing of a suit of power Armour an executioner's sword is not designed for fighting. It's literally giving yourself a disadvantage for what reason?

The model would be 100% improved with a pointy sword.

The Chaplains Crozius, besides being a symbol of office is a play on the Cleric's avoidance of bladed weapons which takes its reference from the (incorrect) interpretation of Bishop Ordo of Bayeux.

Sure the technobabble for the Justicar may allow the Flux-Capacitor to let him "execute" the opponents? Sure ok.

I still dislike the aesthetics of the model. Like said elsewhere the simple fact so many modifications improve it vastly shows it isn't just "Primaris Hate".

**Slayer-Fan123**

catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

I mean, which of those things aren't part of an Executioner? That IS the motif. Also the hourglass is really no different than any other model holding trinkets in the game. This priest dude is a REALLY recent example, who really won'tbe preaching when he's whacking people:

Spoiler:

And of course there's several older examples of models holding stuff that you might be concerned about regarding interfering with their combat ability:

Spoiler:

At which point were any of these complained about, especially the chalice the Sanguine Priest holds, unless we all assume they fight one handed at all times LOL
Oh and sisters look like they basically fight with gloves that are just the same color as the armor:

Spoiler:

So at least complain about all those things to be consistent.

**Galas**

Theres nothing conceptually wrong with a space marine having a cloack and leather gloves over his armour and with a big ass sword.

I mean, thats the definition of this dude, the probably best librarian (With bonus points for ninja) model ever made:

Spoiler:

I built my judicar with a hood head of the deathwing knights and without the hourglass and it becomes substantially better. It is not a ugly model, but the head is horrible and the hour glass isn't much better. But the rest is absolutely fine.

I mean:

Spoiler:

**Dysartes**

Galas wrote:
I built my judicar with a hood head of the deathwing knights and without the hourglass and it becomes substantially better. It is not a ugly model, but the head is horrible and the hour glass isn't much better. But the rest is absolutely fine.

I mean:

Spoiler:

Frankly, that's not a Judiciar - that's a Primaris Emperor's Champion.

**Insectum7**

Galas wrote:
Theres nothing conceptually wrong with a space marine having a cloack and leather gloves over his armour and with a big ass sword.

I mean, thats the definition of this dude, the probably best librarian (With bonus points for ninja) model ever made:

Spoiler:

That's possibly my least favorite Librarian.

**Galas**

I think is my favourite librarian because is the less-librarian librarian they have made.

I really dislike librarians.

**Sumilidon**

To the OP my reply is simple - they needed the Judicar as all Space Marine players up to that point didn’t have one. Come time to complete your army, that will likely be a £25 box with just a tiny piece of plastic in it. Business wise, it’s golden especially when edition 9.5 comes around and they buff him to become an auto-include in order to boost sales.

**Super Ready**

Sumilidon wrote:
To the OP my reply is simple - they needed the Judicar as all Space Marine players up to that point didn’t have one. Come time to complete your army, that will likely be a £25 box with just a tiny piece of plastic in it. Business wise, it’s golden especially when edition 9.5 comes around and they buff him to become an auto-include in order to boost sales.

"They" being GW, I assume. It's a valid answer - but doesn't really mean the Marines needed one as a faction, of course.

Galas, nice work on that Champion

...just couldn't squeeze another pauldron on there though, huh...?

**chaos0xomega**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

**AdmiralHalsey**

chaos0xomega wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

While I don't have the source to hand, so I appreciate if you don't believe me, but the above poster is correct. GW have offically stated it in the past.

The model design team just design stuff in a vacum, they pay literally zero attention to the 'Game', they're just off in their bubble doing things, and when they've designed a thing, it goes to the rules team who then assign it some rules based on the design and drop it in the game.

**Argive**

Dysartes wrote:
Galas wrote:
I built my judicar with a hood head of the deathwing knights and without the hourglass and it becomes substantially better. It is not a ugly model, but the head is horrible and the hour glass isn't much better. But the rest is absolutely fine.

I mean:

Spoiler:

Frankly, that's not a Judiciar - that's a Primaris Emperor's Champion.

Yeah id buy this...
And I dont even play marines

**Kanluwen**

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

While I don't have the source to hand, so I appreciate if you don't believe me, but the above poster is correct. GW have offically stated it in the past.

The model design team just design stuff in a vacum, they pay literally zero attention to the 'Game', they're just off in their bubble doing things, and when they've designed a thing, it goes to the rules team who then assign it some rules based on the design and drop it in the game.

You could always just go and watch the interview with Jes Goodwin about the AdMech reinforcements. Goodwin, who designed the Primaris range, definitely does do this...but there's relatively recently others who have been trying to make sure that there's a reason for things now. The new AdMech flyer for example had all of its weapons in the back until someone suggested that was strange for playing purposes.

A note that gets made is that the 'role' for something is starting to play more into the designs that the studio is working on. However sometimes something is just considered 'cool' and that outweighs a need for an item.

**Super Ready**

I don't think it's just Jes, to be fair, or even a small part of the company. It's right there in their mission statement, which mentions that they're a miniatures company and makes no mention of being a games company. That trend is clear if you look through all of their annual reports over the years, miniatures are mentioned again and again, and rule editions aren't even given a nod.

Heck, take this example from the 2015 report which calls out the complete side-step of Fantasy to Age of Sigmar:
"In July 2015, we relaunched Warhammer Fantasy to broad acclaim ‘Warhammer: Age of Sigmar’. We are so proud of this new range of
miniatures that we have commissioned an additional statue at our HQ to complement our Space Marine"
...wuh?! Ok there were a lot of new miniatures, but surely Age of Sigmar is the new game?!

(I'm aware that annual reports are typically full of a lot of flowery buzzword language, creative accounting and hidden numbers - so I'm aware the nature of that specific quote is to be taken with a massive pinch of salt, "broad acclaim" huh?

But it's just too perfect an example of the miniatures-centric language.)

**Eonfuzz**

Just another example of someone designing a model first and asking monkeys to add rules after.

It makes a successful business, but not a successful game.