Why did space marines need the judiciar?

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**Argive**

Eonfuzz wrote:
Just another example of someone designing a model first and asking monkeys to add rules after.

It makes a successful business, but not a successful game.

Indeed

**Slayer-Fan123**

I mean you could just use him as a Champion or even a Captain if you wanted. Models aren't always stuck with the rules they're designed with.

**Brutus_Apex**

Just add a helmet, a shoulder pad on his right shoulder and make some adjustments to the left arm if you want and bam, he's a Primaris Emperor's champion.

Lots of GW models need a bit of fixing. You just need to see what it could be.

For example:

Those Khorne Skulltakers/wrathmongers are actually decent models when you cut all the garbage mutations off of them and add shoulder pads and proper helmets.

The Heldrake and Maulerfiend are bad on their own. But kit bash them together into one Dragon and they look awesome.

**Karol**

catbarf wrote:

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

yes, those are western euro knight, fighting in western europe or in the middle east. If you had a look at the art or archeological finds for Fratres militiae Christi de Livonia, or even the art in Museums in Malborg for Teutonic knights, you will find out out that knights not only wore gloves there, but also furs and what ever could isolate them from harsh winters. And this is not even considering stuff like eastern common wealth or various Rus duke doms knights who would not were plated gloves at all. Mostly because it made using bows on horseback practicaly impossible.

**yukishiro1**

I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

**BrianDavion**

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

pretty much, I find people forget that aestetics are relative, you might like something I hate and vice versa.

**Dudeface**

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

As you try to not point out in your OP, the point of this thread is a hollow whine and ultimately GW did make him and he does exist so whether he is needed or not is pointless. All that is left is subjective opinion on how the model looks.

**Denegaar**

"Let's make him weird so people argue about his sword instead of the fact that we gave SMs yet another unnecessary tool".

Sold!

**Slayer6**

It's very simple, GW bases their sales model around these 3 facts that the customers use:

1. Can't go wrong with Space Marines! No matter what model I pick up today, it will eventually find a way to be #1 someday. If the new model is for lets say... a Mordian Iron Guard special character, 90% of the playerbase will go: it's a Guard unit, I don't have Guard, the next 9% will go: I'd like it but I don't collect Mordians, and the last 1% will actually buy it.

2. Everyone else has Space Marines of some sort, I can't be left out! I'll just grab one to ensure that I am keeping up with the times...

3. Non-Space Marine armies are rare individually - oh sure there's lots of Guard players, collectively, but how many Tempestus or Mordian or Tallarn players go to a typical LGS? How many Space Marine players go to the same LGS? Sometimes these additional armies are discontinued - like the Guard regiments...

Me? I just buy all the 3rd Edition Inquisitorial Stormtroopers I can lay my grubby mitts on...

**Kayback**

Slayer6 wrote:
...

Me? I just buy all the 3rd Edition Inquisitorial Stormtroopers I can lay my grubby mitts on...

Are those the dudes with tons of grenades on their back?

**Slayer6**

Kayback wrote:
Slayer6 wrote:
...

Me? I just buy all the 3rd Edition Inquisitorial Stormtroopers I can lay my grubby mitts on...

Are those the dudes with tons of grenades on their back?

These:

**the_scotsman**

chaos0xomega wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer6 wrote:
It's very simple, GW bases their sales model around these 3 facts that the customers use:

1. Can't go wrong with Space Marines! No matter what model I pick up today, it will eventually find a way to be #1 someday. If the new model is for lets say... a Mordian Iron Guard special character, 90% of the playerbase will go: it's a Guard unit, I don't have Guard, the next 9% will go: I'd like it but I don't collect Mordians, and the last 1% will actually buy it.

Say remember that time Games Workshop announced they'd be selling people blind boxes at a 50% discount, completely transparently in an attempt to clear out stock from the warehouse that didn't sell as well as they'd hoped and it was like 90% Space Marines, 50% the primaris space marines special characters they came out with 14 of during the supplements?

**BrianDavion**

the_scotsman wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

yeah I know I just roll over the tourny scene with my Reivers!

**Dudeface**

BrianDavion wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

yeah I know I just roll over the tourny scene with my Reivers!

They're not from the new release however, those bladeguard ancients on the other hand. Definite auto 100 points.

**the_scotsman**

Dudeface wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

yeah I know I just roll over the tourny scene with my Reivers!

They're not from the new release however, those bladeguard ancients on the other hand. Definite auto 100 points.

Mhm, mhm, and those new necron models that were fully 50% of the starter set, those were....um....we'll just ignore those, I guess.

**Ordana**

GW really wanted to sell those pyrovores back in the day, just look at those awesome rules they got.

Or Primaris when they first came out.
Or any number of units that GW has released over the decades that were bad when they came out...

Does it occasionally happen? possibly.
But most of the time GW is just incompetent.

**Dudeface**

Ordana wrote:
GW really wanted to sell those pyrovores back in the day, just look at those awesome rules they got.

Or Primaris when they first came out.
Or any number of units that GW has released over the decades that were bad when they came out...

Does it occasionally happen? possibly.
But most of the time GW is just incompetent.

It really is about 50/50 odds

**catbarf**

Karol wrote:
catbarf wrote:

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

yes, those are western euro knight, fighting in western europe or in the middle east. If you had a look at the art or archeological finds for Fratres militiae Christi de Livonia, or even the art in Museums in Malborg for Teutonic knights, you will find out out that knights not only wore gloves there, but also furs and what ever could isolate them from harsh winters. And this is not even considering stuff like eastern common wealth or various Rus duke doms knights who would not were plated gloves at all. Mostly because it made using bows on horseback practicaly impossible.

Two of those images I posted were Teutonic knights. I can't find any visual reference for the Livonian Brothers of the Sword having any such equipment. Post a pic.

**vipoid**

Karol wrote:
catbarf wrote:

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

yes, those are western euro knight, fighting in western europe or in the middle east. If you had a look at the art or archeological finds for Fratres militiae Christi de Livonia, or even the art in Museums in Malborg for Teutonic knights, you will find out out that knights not only wore gloves there, but also furs and what ever could isolate them from harsh winters. And this is not even considering stuff like eastern common wealth or various Rus duke doms knights who would not were plated gloves at all. Mostly because it made using bows on horseback practicaly impossible.

Just to be clear (since this is the context of the discussion), are you saying that wearing plated gloves would make firing a bow from horseback impossible, yet wearing leather gloves over plated gloves would work just fine?

**Slayer-Fan123**

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

**the_scotsman**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

Why would you need a prolonged combat to use a guy whose ability is "you fight last"?

The Judicar is for the exact thing the plague marine guy is for: You put him near your shooty stationary gunline unit of 10 intercessors, your ork opponent "da jumps" his 30-block of boyz at you, charges, and the Judicar goes "Boop, my buddies here now get to punch you 32 times plus my Heroic Intervention attacks before you get to do anything, lololol we are models that outshoot fire warriors but also do this."

He's basically just a "no melee alpha strikerino" model. Which isn't super useful in this "only marines, only shooting" meta but if it were a different meta with a lot of melee alpha strike, he'd be bonkers good.

He's just not FOR what he's supposed to be for, i.e. going out and dueling enemy characters. He's just yet another piece to go with the new default Space Marine playstyle: "Tau, but dumber, and less interactive."

**catbarf**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

As the_scotsman succinctly pointed out, it's an 'I win' button for Marine gunlines against melee alpha strikers. You can't out-shoot them when they have some of the best shooting for the points, you can't out-attrition them when they have high durability for the cost, and now you can't out-melee them because they hit you first. It's just frustrating to play against because there is no counterplay, and it doesn't match what the Judiciar is supposed to be doing in the lore.

You know what would be fluffy and fitting? Giving him bonuses to singling out enemy characters, maybe reimplementing the old challenge rule where if the target refuses to fight him, they have to sit out in combat. Make him the guy that aggressively goes forward to challenge the enemy leaders and duel them one-on-one.

Instead he's a defensive buffer for gunlines who sits back and swings his comically oversized sand timer to make the enemy fight slow.

**a_typical_hero**

Please correct me, but I thought charging models always strike first and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

**catbarf**

a_typical_hero wrote:
and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

It reversed in 9th Ed, which is what made these abilities actually useful. After chargers are resolved, if it's my turn, you pick the first unit to fight- so since chargers lose their charging first-strike bonus, you get to pick whatever got charged and actually fight first.

**Super Ready**

catbarf wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

It reversed in 9th Ed, which is what made these abilities actually useful. After chargers are resolved, if it's my turn, you pick the first unit to fight- so since chargers lose their charging first-strike bonus, you get to pick whatever got charged and actually fight first.

I take it you're referring to Rare Rules, page 361? I'm not sure whether it affects charging, specifically. The wording goes, "If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it". (Emphasis mine.)
If you include charging in that, then you'd be correct, the opponent chooses which unit to fight with first so one unit gets to go before the chargers, but that's still not the same as fighting last if we're talking a multiple unit combat (and given the Judiciar is a character, it's quite likely).

However, I can see the argument that charging isn't a rule that always allows you to fight first. Partly because the word "always" isn't in the charging rules, and partly because that wording in Rare Rules doesn't specifically call out charging, whereas the paragraphs above it do.

**the_scotsman**

a_typical_hero wrote:
Please correct me, but I thought charging models always strike first and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

"You strike last" abilities mean LAST. after EVERYONE else has fought, including models that did not charge this turn. They don't just get shunted to "Tier 2" they go to the very back of the line.

"I strike first even if I didnt charge" abiltiies are less useful overall, because if it's your opponent's turn, he still gets to select the first unit and he can just select the unit that's going to be punching the one with the "i strike first' ability.

It's really only helpful if, like with Emperors Children and Slaanesh daemons, your WHOLE ARMY gets the "I strike first" ability.

**yukishiro1**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

Uh you put him with your dudes on an objective and make those dudes unable to be charged because you hit before your enemy does. If you're using him offensively you're using him totally wrong. He perfectly complements the fact that even shooty space marine units can melee pretty well as well. Good luck charging aggressors if they hit you first, even intercessors are not something a lot of NPC factions want to charge if they're going to hit you first.

It's an incredibly powerful ability that can just totally shut down some lists, as any Drukhari or Space Wolf player knows.

The fact that a lot of Space Marine players don't appreciate how powerful a targeted 6" ASL is kinda says it all about how spoiled SM players are with powerful rules already.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

**Super Ready**

the_scotsman wrote:
"I strike first even if I didnt charge" abiltiies are less useful overall, because if it's your opponent's turn, he still gets to select the first unit and he can just select the unit that's going to be punching the one with the "i strike first' ability.

That isn't how it works - the "fight first" ability still overrides the opponent getting to choose a normal-timing unit first. Check out bottom-right of page 361, Rare Rules.

**Dysartes**

This sounds like there's at least one thing which needs an FAQ (how charging interacts with this Rare Rules section), and possibly more than one - would that be a fair summary?