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Absolutely. For once, I'm not even sure where I fall on the topic for HIWPI.

the_scotsman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

Thats a meme that people on the internet like to claim, but its not matched by reality (or, indeed, even by the realities of the way the rules team works, according to the rules team and members of the design studio themselves.

Same like the old "kit pricing is based on points cost" meme. Simply not true.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

You can't walk away if you're dead, and you don't need to walk away if they're dead.

Charging is how you get onto objectives with someone already on them, and take that objective from them. It's still a key part of the game.

That said, if you don't think ASL is a powerful ability because you think melee is irrelevant I have no interest in trying to change your mind. ASL is a massively powerful ability in competitive 40k, whether you recognize it or not.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

He values melee in a game where it is usually the only way an army has to flip an objective, which is to say it's the only way to deprive your opponent the objective in their following command phase while claiming that objective for yourself if you can hold it for their turn.

The judiciar's presence on an objective makes this more difficult.

You might want to learn how the game works before you post about it buddy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

He values melee in a game where it is usually the only way an army has to flip an objective, which is to say it's the only way to deprive your opponent the objective in their following command phase while claiming that objective for yourself if you can hold it for their turn.

The judiciar's presence on an objective makes this more difficult.

You might want to learn how the game works before you post about it buddy.

ok so I must be missing something here....... why can't you shoot a unit off an objective?

Of course you can, but that doesn't get you onto that objective. And you have to shoot the unit completely off, whereas if you charge it you just need to end up with more models than they have (unless they have ob-sec and you don't).

The ASL thing is incredibly strong because it makes it vastly more difficult to charge space marines off an objective. Even intercessors will smack a lot of NPC faction melee units (think GSC except abberrants, orks except meganobz, lots of eldar stuff) hard enough that they won't be able to smack back enough to win the objective.

It's absolutely game-changing against certain units, as anyone who plays SW or Drukhari knows.

BrianDavion wrote:
ok so I must be missing something here....... why can't you shoot a unit off an objective?

Shooting:
-You shoot the enemy off the objective.
-There is nobody on the objective.
-In the other player's turn they are free to move onto the objective, and then you will need to shoot them off again.
-If on any turn you fail to shoot everything off the objective, they score a point.
-You will only be able to score the objective if you can kill enough that there's nobody left to move onto it in one turn, and then you move onto it in the next turn, and then you'll score the following turn. If you're still there.

Melee:
-You charge the enemy on the objective and wipe them out.
-You now hold the objective.
-In the other player's turn they must now either shoot or melee you off the objective.
-If they fail to do that, you score a point.
-If the objective is contested or you control it, you can continue to reinforce with more troops.

Melee is the best tool in 9th for regaining the initiative if the enemy takes an objective. If you don't have any melee, it's very difficult to make a comeback if your opponent holds more objectives.

The Judiciar allows gunline troops to do an awful lot of damage before the enemy has a chance to fight- even Intercessors are a significant threat. The bigger problem is that it hard-counters fast glass hammer melee troops, which are normally decently effective against Marine gunlines. So you can't shoot the enemy off the objective and take it in the same turn, you can't charge with anything fragile because they'll die before they can swing, you can't get melee bruisers in before they get focus-fired by high-AP shooting. There's no real thought or tactics required, and it's extremely frustrating to play against.

It's a pretty textbook example of poor game design. It's not like space marines really had weaknesses to begin with, but to then give them what was previously an extremely rare, powerful ability that closes down the closest thing to a weakness the faction had is really pretty mind-boggling from a design point of view.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

You can't walk away if you're dead, and you don't need to walk away if they're dead.

Charging is how you get onto objectives with someone already on them, and take that objective from them. It's still a key part of the game.

That said, if you don't think ASL is a powerful ability because you think melee is irrelevant I have no interest in trying to change your mind. ASL is a massively powerful ability in competitive 40k, whether you recognize it or not.

It really isn't. Hell, let's take your example of regular Ork Boyz using Da Jump to attack some Intercessors. Assuming a full squad, completely unharmed, gets charged (and probably won't use Overwatch), and the Orks don't get a bonus for said charge to strike first, that's still only 9 Orks dead. That's it. Even Possessed Bomb laughs at your example, as they only have 1.5 guys die!

Which melee bomb is afraid of this? Which competitive list is afraid of this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

He values melee in a game where it is usually the only way an army has to flip an objective, which is to say it's the only way to deprive your opponent the objective in their following command phase while claiming that objective for yourself if you can hold it for their turn.

The judiciar's presence on an objective makes this more difficult.

You might want to learn how the game works before you post about it buddy.

ok so I must be missing something here....... why can't you shoot a unit off an objective?

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a pretty textbook example of poor game design. It's not like space marines really had weaknesses to begin with, but to then give them what was previously an extremely rare, powerful ability that closes down the closest thing to a weakness the faction had is really pretty mind-boggling from a design point of view.

Why can't they have the rare ability? It's still only present on that 1 character and still only has situational use to tag something charging that you have good odds of killing enough that it isn't a problem later.

What is the Judiciar taking away that's such an issue? It's only really going to show huge swings/perks when large intact units are charged by a singular fragile low head count melee unit that relies purely on killing you first. It's not like it's an unknown to your opponent, they know he's there and plan for it accordingly.

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a pretty textbook example of poor game design. It's not like space marines really had weaknesses to begin with, but to then give them what was previously an extremely rare, powerful ability that closes down the closest thing to a weakness the faction had is really pretty mind-boggling from a design point of view.

Why can't they have the rare ability? It's still only present on that 1 character and still only has situational use to tag something charging that you have good odds of killing enough that it isn't a problem later.

What is the Judiciar taking away that's such an issue? It's only really going to show huge swings/perks when large intact units are charged by a singular fragile low head count melee unit that relies purely on killing you first. It's not like it's an unknown to your opponent, they know he's there and plan for it accordingly.

Nearly every unit that wants to kill space marines now relies on killing them before they kill you, thanks to how Shock Assault functions. Even units that, supposedly, pay for durability.

Take the example that GW's Warcom article seems to think GSC players should be using to kill space marines: Aberrants.

Aberrants have T4, W2, 5+sv, and 5+FNP and a rule that reduces all incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Evidently considering that they can carry identical melee weaponry to assault terminators and have the same offensive statline, Games Workshop apparently regards that FNP/-1D ability as 5 points less valuable than a Terminator's 2+/3++ and Shock Assault. Their body costs 22pts versus a glass cannon Acolyte costing 8pts, so they put a large fraction of their value into defense.

An acolyte squad equipped to kill MEQ (5-man, all picks) costs 160 points. If you charge it into a squad of 8 Intercessors (160pts) you stand to kill 3.8 intercessors with them (round up to 4 for convenience) - 80pts.

If those intercessors either interrupt you, or have the judicar nearby, even assuming the judicar doesn't get to attack you, those 8 intercessors kill 2 aberrants, 64pts of your stuff.

That's a unit that has nearly as much of its power budget in defenses as a TH/SS terminator, and being able to strike first makes equal points of a unit with a 30" range gun nearly as effective as it in melee combat.

It's a really REALLY good ability considering how much melee opponents currently need to thread the needle to deal with SM.

the_scotsman wrote:


If those intercessors either interrupt you, or have the judicar nearby, even assuming the judicar doesn't get to attack you, those 8 intercessors kill 2 aberrants, 64pts of your stuff.

That's a unit that has nearly as much of its power budget in defenses as a TH/SS terminator, and being able to strike first makes equal points of a unit with a 30" range gun nearly as effective as it in melee combat.

It's a really REALLY good ability considering how much melee opponents currently need to thread the needle to deal with SM.

I'm still listening to the arguments and haven't made up my mind yet, but you just compared 160 points of Aberrants to 160 points of Intercessors and some portion of the 80+ some odd points of Judiciar.

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


If those intercessors either interrupt you, or have the judicar nearby, even assuming the judicar doesn't get to attack you, those 8 intercessors kill 2 aberrants, 64pts of your stuff.

That's a unit that has nearly as much of its power budget in defenses as a TH/SS terminator, and being able to strike first makes equal points of a unit with a 30" range gun nearly as effective as it in melee combat.

It's a really REALLY good ability considering how much melee opponents currently need to thread the needle to deal with SM.

I'm still listening to the arguments and haven't made up my mind yet, but you just compared 160 points of Aberrants to 160 points of Intercessors and some portion of the 80+ some odd points of Judiciar.

Well, if you want I can count it as 2CP to interrupt, and we can talk about the choice between either a 65pt Clamavus or a 3CP Perfect Ambush stratagem to get the Aberrants in tere in the first place.

....Or would you prefer I account for the aberrants just charging in a vacuum, and we talk about the two other identical aberrant squads that didn't make the 28% charge chance?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

So you want to wait a full turn before moving on the objective and claiming it for yourself? While giving your opponent a chance to re-capture the objective by simply moving onto it?
Or did you mean using stuff like "Fire and Fade" to get on the objective after gunning them down?

If its option B please tell me how i should do this if i play a non eldar army because in my eyes charging in is the only way to achieve this

the_scotsman wrote:


Well, if you want I can count it as 2CP to interrupt, and we can talk about the choice between either a 65pt Clamavus or a 3CP Perfect Ambush stratagem to get the Aberrants in tere in the first place.

....Or would you prefer I account for the aberrants just charging in a vacuum, and we talk about the two other identical aberrant squads that didn't make the 28% charge chance?

Whatever context applies. 160 vs 160 and some unknown portion of 80-90 is context. What happens to 160 vs 80 of Intercessors and the Judiciar fighting?

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Well, if you want I can count it as 2CP to interrupt, and we can talk about the choice between either a 65pt Clamavus or a 3CP Perfect Ambush stratagem to get the Aberrants in tere in the first place.

....Or would you prefer I account for the aberrants just charging in a vacuum, and we talk about the two other identical aberrant squads that didn't make the 28% charge chance?

Whatever context applies. 160 vs 160 and some unknown portion of 80-90 is context. What happens to 160 vs 80 of Intercessors and the Judiciar fighting?

Then they kill 3/5 of the aberrants instead of 2/5. 96pts. The two remaining aberrants cannot kill the judicar, so 160pts of them is not a viable answer to 80pts of judicar.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

So you want to wait a full turn before moving on the objective and claiming it for yourself? While giving your opponent a chance to re-capture the objective by simply moving onto it?
Or did you mean using stuff like "Fire and Fade" to get on the objective after gunning them down?

If its option B please tell me how i should do this if i play a non eldar army because in my eyes charging in is the only way to achieve this

Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward. You really think that the -1 to hit abilities were complained about because people valued melee?
Compare that to melee where you have to jump through all these hoops and then, if you didn't kill the dudes, they just hop away and then you're closer to more death.

Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

So you want to wait a full turn before moving on the objective and claiming it for yourself? While giving your opponent a chance to re-capture the objective by simply moving onto it?
Or did you mean using stuff like "Fire and Fade" to get on the objective after gunning them down?

If its option B please tell me how i should do this if i play a non eldar army because in my eyes charging in is the only way to achieve this

Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward. You really think that the -1 to hit abilities were complained about because people valued melee?
Compare that to melee where you have to jump through all these hoops and then, if you didn't kill the dudes, they just hop away and then you're closer to more death.

its not about being able to shoot them off the objective. its about delaying your scoring ability by 2 turns for primaries. And from my experience with 9th so far, its a lot less killy than 8th.
I know its becoming almost a meme but tables really do benefit from more terrain.

And stop claiming that people don't value melee. Everyone i play has big melee part in their army, especially since 9th came out

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward.

Just curious, have you played much 9th?

Shooting the enemy off an objective on, say, turn 2 means you're scoring turn 4 at the very earliest. I've had games where I grabbed an objective early, then repeatedly got shot off, moved some new troops on, those got shot off, and so on. If they fail to shoot all my units off the objective, I score a point. If they succeed, they still don't get anything. It's one of the most common ways I've seen to get tabled and still win.

Melee has gone from an extreme underdog in 8th to being tactically, if not mechanically, potent in 9th. The increased focus on midboard objectives also means the amount of ground melee armies need to cover is significantly reduced. Furthermore, there are plenty of things in the game (Intercessors, for one) that are capable of moving close to an objective, shooting whatever's on it, and then charging to finish the job, both shooting and using melee (and thereby taking the objective) in one turn.

I have yet to see a shooting castle army with no melee capability win a game of 9th. It's an important phase now.

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

This is the problem, if he was stood there you simply wouldn't make that charge, or at least not just that charge. It's a target saturation issue and it's something that we can't really assess in a thread like this because no mathammer approximation factors in multiple charges.

If your Judiciar has a choice of stopping the 20 stealers on the intercessors or the carnifex charging the dread etc. it makes it a more complicated situation with no right answer. The point of the thread is to argue "Marines shouldn't have that choice" but as Scotsman points out they do in the form of a 2cp strat anyway, the judiciar just give out a location based free strat in essence.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward. You really think that the -1 to hit abilities were complained about because people valued melee?
Compare that to melee where you have to jump through all these hoops and then, if you didn't kill the dudes, they just hop away and then you're closer to more death.

I don't know that shooting got deadlier so much as melee got well and truly blunted. Removing all the bonus attacks etc from melee was a radical change I think GW is still trying to figure to correct for. They gave the melee specific units +1A on their basic melee weapon, but I think they're still behind and catching up. You lost +1A for charging, +1 A for two weapons, and you lost Initiative which was a boost for CCW troops, that's a LOT of lost attacks plus a slight edge. Angels of Death/Shock Attack was aimed square at that major whoopsie. So now Space Marines get +1A when charging or when charged, and +1A for a chainsword etc... and they're right back where they were, maybe a little ahead. But many of the other factions are still boned.

No, it doesn't do that at all. It doesn't remotely do that. You can't interrupt until your opponent has had the chance to fight once. That you would say it is anywhere similar just shows how much you don't understand the utility of the ability.

As for why Space Marines shouldn't have got it - because they have pretty much everything else already. An army with zero weaknesses is terrible design. The only weakness space marines had prior to the judiciar is being charged by stuff that could kill them before they could fight back. The judiciar plugs that one tiny crack in the Space Marine arsenal.

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

And now we get to the crux of 9th regarding large squads: did you consider splitting that squad in half?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

And now we get to the crux of 9th regarding large squads: did you consider splitting that squad in half?

And making it so they can literally never make their points back because they don't get their +1A rule?

How is this a ninth thing, I don't get it....

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

And now we get to the crux of 9th regarding large squads: did you consider splitting that squad in half?

And making it so they can literally never make their points back because they don't get their +1A rule?

How is this a ninth thing, I don't get it....

9th is all about MSU. Putting all your eggs in one basket with Genestealers (which are already pretty meh to begin with) is bad. If Marines didn't fear them to begin with, why does a Judiciar change that?

Plus even if you don't get that extra attack, two squads of ten would enable more targets being hit. In your scenario, if it were just two separate squads, you still neuter the Marine squad considerably with ten having made a charge.

On the original topic;

I sat down to paint my Judiciar last night...and I decided to flip through his rules. I was left just baffled. Why does this exist? Why not just do a chapter/company champion if you wanted a cool sword guy in the box set? If you wanted the stike last effect in the marine army why not put it on a relic for ancients, librarians and chaplains?

I really hope the codex does literally anything with this unit, whether it be folding it into a weapon option for Chaplains, or just making it somewhat interesting...i dunno. It's super 1 dimensional though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Plus even if you don't get that extra attack, two squads of ten would enable more targets being hit. In your scenario, if it were just two separate squads, you still neuter the Marine squad considerably with ten having made a charge.

10 is small compared to 20, but it's not the 9th Ed Blast rule forces the Rhino Rush MSU Meta small I think you're referring to. If you're ducking blast, why not 4x5?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Why does this exist? Why not just do a chapter/company champion if you wanted a cool sword guy in the box set?

I was going to guess they already did. I was going to guess the Victrix Guard were going viral in the condensed codex, you know everyone gets sword brethren (Assault Intercessors), so Victrix goes to everyone but then I looked at the boxed set again. 3 Bladeguard including Sergeant, Bladeguard ancient. I think there's a Bladeguard Champion to round out the Command Squad. I'm pretty curious myself why it wasn't in the box.

As for the model I want to know why it was IN the box.. the Bladeguard Ancient. I mean I realize I just suggested this is a command squad as they currently exist with a 3 person squad - and seperate entries for and Elite slot IC Ancient + Elite slot IC Champion... but why did we need ANOTHER Primaris Ancient to go with ANOTHER Primaris Captain, and ANOTHER Primaris Lieutenant? If this is the new paradigm I think by 2025 we're going to have 15 different Primaris Captains, 12 different Primaris Lieutenants, 6 different Primaris Ancients, 8 slightly different Something Intercessors, and 42 different 3 man FA/HS squads.

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, it doesn't do that at all. It doesn't remotely do that. You can't interrupt until your opponent has had the chance to fight once. That you would say it is anywhere similar just shows how much you don't understand the utility of the ability.

As for why Space Marines shouldn't have got it - because they have pretty much everything else already. An army with zero weaknesses is terrible design. The only weakness space marines had prior to the judiciar is being charged by stuff that could kill them before they could fight back. The judiciar plugs that one tiny crack in the Space Marine arsenal.

I understand the utility plenty well, if you're charged by multiple units and you need to whack one before it attacks, both let you do that on a basic level. They are similar on a basic conceptual level, they are different on a practical level.

The judiciar is better than the strat, but dont act like it was impossible for marines to strike before a charging unit without one.

Is it weird that I really dislike this model as a Space Marine but LOVE it for an Inquisitor?