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BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Goes to show how bonkers they were when even afterwards they beat ynnari rather confidently winr rates wise.


But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

By time Iron Hands where nerfed Ynnari had been nerfed into the ground already IIRC.

heck we had like 1-2 months of play after that nerf tops before covid shut everything down.

i meant at their respective height.

Also, the issue of GW not listening to their playtesters still stands...

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

And you've proven that if a new unit isn't OP the majority of posters recognize that and don't call it as such. So maybe, just maybe, could it be that the units that they complain about could, just possibly, be considered a bit overpowered, underpriced, or both? Do you think it might be possible that people aren't overreacting to things like 40 PPM eradicators?

technically this is all overreacting, ya know since nobody has a codex yet and no one knows what everything else is gonna be. like maybe, no bolter drill, or a massive change to doctrines, or....

point is we dont know anything for sure till then.

That's wild, I could have sworn the last game I played my opponent used Eradicators against me as if they were a fully legal unit that exists in warhammer 40,000 right now? And I could swear the complaint was that those are OP RIGHT NOW.

We don't know much at all about the new marine codex. We know about the statline buffs to... most of their weapons, we know about Custodemernators and W2 firstborn. And we know about AFAIK...two nerfs, one to the Salamanders CT (and presumably Master Crafters) and one to put a cap on captains and lieutenants.

Hey, maybe you're right. maybe the marine codex is full of nerfs to core marine stuff rather than reigning in the worst offenders among the supplements. That'd stink for like. Black Templars players.Hope they don't do that. I guess it's possible?

I was looking to find the ynnari win rates at the end of the 2018 season and stumbles across the thread where they got nerfed on Dakka and it was refreshing to see (often the same) people just throwing the same sorts of comments and overreactions about Eldar.

A lot of loudest marine complainers were also very pro-eldar oddly...

Dudeface wrote:
I was looking to find the ynnari win rates at the end of the 2018 season and stumbles across the thread where they got nerfed on Dakka and it was refreshing to see (often the same) people just throwing the same sorts of comments and overreactions about Eldar.

A lot of loudest marine complainers were also very pro-eldar oddly...

IIRC my reaction was "Great, they got nerfed, sucks to see them literally nerfed so hard that you'd have to have miraculously survived a railway spike through your brain to think you should use them in any capacity."

Like, I guess they wanted people to feel bad that they'd bought in to the new thing for eldar GW said they were going to try and push in late 7th ed? If there's any earnest ynnari players out there who were really excited about combining the three eldar factions into one, I feel bad for them. They got utterly and completely fethed by GW so many times.

Can you imagine late 7th getting your triumvirate box and then building an army of all the three eldar, getting excited about having cool stuff like incubi in wave serpents and - oh, cool, I've still got my Harlequin painted Falcon from back in the day when they were in the eldar codex, this is awesome! I'm going to build a unit of Reavers and kitbash them with a unit of Windriders, I'm-

....Oh, ok. HQ auras don't cross anymore and you can't board faction transports anymore, OK. Well I guess my army will still work if I buy this, and that, and...

...Oh, separate detachments now? Well....OK....I guess if I field one of each, they still sort of work together, if I just buy...

...Oh, each detachment HAS to be led by one of the three ynarri HQs? I have to field all ~600pts of them every single game I play with my ynnari if I want to mix all three? They have to turn up to every battle the ynnari fight ever, no exceptions, like being forced to field Guilliman Calgar and Tigurius every time you want to play UM?

....Oh, and now they have the worst chapter tactic in the game and all their gak's nerfed. I'd be stupid not to just run them separately. Great. Well I guess I can put my Ynnari HQs that I want to use in a supreme command detachment, and...

....Oh that's gone now.

LIke, feth people who just played "ynnari" with 12 harlequin skyweavers so they have to doubleshoot, I'm not shedding any tears for those guys, and feth old SFD I absolutely hated it in general, I just cant think of anyone who was required to buy more mandatory gak in a shorter period of time to keep their army legal to play, and who got more nerfs in that time period than Ynnari, and if there was any 'fluff based' ynnari players in existence I feel bad for them.

The difference is that you can play any eldar units as anything. There are no enforced rules that to get what ever craftworld is the best at the moment to play it what ever it is painted. If someone paints their DA army the wrong colour of green they have to play a succesor chapter, which by definition is just an inferior version of a DA army.

So even with that eldar players have it better.
And in general in is super hard to impossible to feel any sympathy to the eldar players plight right now. Yes they aren't the best army right now, but comparing to the really bad factions in 9th, they are sitll gods. And they have been bad, which seems to mean not the best army in the meta, for what 9-12 months, out of which 2/3 is covid where no one can play at store anyway. When eldar get 2-3 editions of bad rules and being the most bottom tier of all factions, maybe people will be more sympathetic to what is happening to them. I for one still remember the flyers lists, the Inari reapers and shining spears, double dipping on stratagems etc. And all I know is 8th, from stories from older players, if they are even a bit true, they were even more unfun to play in 7th and prior editions.

Karol wrote:
The difference is that you can play any eldar units as anything. There are no enforced rules that to get what ever craftworld is the best at the moment to play it what ever it is painted. If someone paints their DA army the wrong colour of green they have to play a succesor chapter, which by definition is just an inferior version of a DA army.

This is demonstrably false.

Not Online!!! wrote:
But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

The playtesters that now claim to have warned them.

I know I've not seen any evidence that they did, and I'm not going to take the word of an "influencer" as evidence.

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

The playtesters that now claim to have warned them.

I know I've not seen any evidence that they did, and I'm not going to take the word of an "influencer" as evidence.

The FAQ commentary does acknowledge they didn't act in time on some feedback.

the_scotsman wrote:
LIke, feth people who just played "ynnari" with 12 harlequin skyweavers so they have to doubleshoot, I'm not shedding any tears for those guys, and feth old SFD I absolutely hated it in general, I just cant think of anyone who was required to buy more mandatory gak in a shorter period of time to keep their army legal to play, and who got more nerfs in that time period than Ynnari, and if there was any 'fluff based' ynnari players in existence I feel bad for them.

Yeah, it's sad. It's the same for SM players who had fluffy, codex-only lists, only to see them nerfed again and again because some gitgud types spam 3 leviathans and 3 contemptors (with nerfs not touching actual cancer). Custodes fans who get no love because again, FW spam of broken gak artificially raises winrate making army look good on paper. Chaos renegades, who got their armies ruined thanks to knee jerk reaction to couple OP FW units. Really, GW would do well to go back to writing fluffy, thematic side lists (I still love Tyrant's Legion concept after playing it for years) instead of catering to soulless tournament crowd exclusively. Hopefully Crusade marks return to such thinking...

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

The playtesters that now claim to have warned them.

I know I've not seen any evidence that they did, and I'm not going to take the word of an "influencer" as evidence.

Yeah.

And to be fair to GW, Iron Hands rules were not that big of a problem when taken with Codex dreadnoughts. Though hard, they were still killable. It's when people started to spam broken FW garbage with them the game crashed. Leviathans, already obscene, became impossible to kill - something the writer playtesting the codex as is could have overlooked, but said playtesters who saw tournaments before missed them as well, and unlike the writer, they had no excuse to. Or they did saw it, but their lists spammed the things too so they choose to stay silent to protect their purchases (which is even worse).

What is really sad, though, is that GW is willing to nerf SM rules 58767 times in a row, almost never touching FW junk. Fixing IH supplement was as simple as ruling trait only applies to codex units, not to third party stuff - but they choose to ruin the rules for people who play weaker plastic units instead, virtually ensuring leviathan/contemptor wombo combo will show up right quick (and surprise, surprise, people spam them again with 9th edition changes). They should just slam the cancer directly, not play around them because last 4 years demonstrated how little it does.

Karol wrote:
The difference is that you can play any eldar units as anything. There are no enforced rules that to get what ever craftworld is the best at the moment to play it what ever it is painted. If someone paints their DA army the wrong colour of green they have to play a succesor chapter, which by definition is just an inferior version of a DA army.

So even with that eldar players have it better.
And in general in is super hard to impossible to feel any sympathy to the eldar players plight right now. Yes they aren't the best army right now, but comparing to the really bad factions in 9th, they are sitll gods. And they have been bad, which seems to mean not the best army in the meta, for what 9-12 months, out of which 2/3 is covid where no one can play at store anyway. When eldar get 2-3 editions of bad rules and being the most bottom tier of all factions, maybe people will be more sympathetic to what is happening to them. I for one still remember the flyers lists, the Inari reapers and shining spears, double dipping on stratagems etc. And all I know is 8th, from stories from older players, if they are even a bit true, they were even more unfun to play in 7th and prior editions.

Um.

Where does it say this in the rules, my dude?

Where does it say "Dark Angels MUST be painted DARK ANGELS GREEN and you MUST use them as something else if the green isn't right- oh lololol there's no color scheme for Biel-Tan you can paint those guys whatever you want and run them as whatever you want!!"

Like, what? The craftworlds have established color schemes. They've had them EXACTLY, EXACTLY as long as space marine chapters have had color schemes, right from fething rogue trader on. It's just as legitimate to complain if someone shows up with a blue and yellow eldar army and aren't playing alaitoc as it is if they show up with blue and gold and aren't playing UM. Basically: not at all, it's not anywhere in the rules, you don't have a fething leg to stand on.

 Irbis wrote:


What is really sad, though, is that GW is willing to nerf SM rules 58767 times in a row, almost never touching FW junk. Fixing IH supplement was as simple as ruling trait only applies to codex units, not to third party stuff - but they choose to ruin the rules for people who play weaker plastic units instead, virtually ensuring leviathan/contemptor wombo combo will show up right quick (and surprise, surprise, people spam them again with 9th edition changes). They should just slam the cancer directly, not play around them because last 4 years demonstrated how little it does.

FW is not third party, "Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2000 – 2020" at the bottom of the site being a small giveaway.

Dudeface wrote:

 Irbis wrote:


What is really sad, though, is that GW is willing to nerf SM rules 58767 times in a row, almost never touching FW junk. Fixing IH supplement was as simple as ruling trait only applies to codex units, not to third party stuff - but they choose to ruin the rules for people who play weaker plastic units instead, virtually ensuring leviathan/contemptor wombo combo will show up right quick (and surprise, surprise, people spam them again with 9th edition changes). They should just slam the cancer directly, not play around them because last 4 years demonstrated how little it does.

FW is not third party, "Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2000 – 2020" at the bottom of the site being a small giveaway.

God damn, what the hell is with this dumb star wars and marvel bs, why can't disney focus on incorporating actual DISNEY stuff into their theme parks, GOD!!

IF I PUT MY HANDS OVER MY EARS AND YELL I CANT HEAR CAPITALISM!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

And you've proven that if a new unit isn't OP the majority of posters recognize that and don't call it as such. So maybe, just maybe, could it be that the units that they complain about could, just possibly, be considered a bit overpowered, underpriced, or both? Do you think it might be possible that people aren't overreacting to things like 40 PPM eradicators?

technically this is all overreacting, ya know since nobody has a codex yet and no one knows what everything else is gonna be. like maybe, no bolter drill, or a massive change to doctrines, or....

point is we dont know anything for sure till then.

That's a good point. We've already seen that they've dialed back most of the chapter tactics. Though losing bolter drill would do nothing to eradicators, and losing doctrines would only affect their output against things with a 2+ save and no invul for most chapters. If Salamanders lost their +1 to wound with melta weapons it would definitely help though. For the record, I repeat that my primary problem with them is their price, they're just too cheap for what they do.

Yeah that is not even debatable. They should be 50 points. They only thing that is great about them is their price though. While they might be durable to trash weapons...It is just baffling to me that any of you encounter weapons that dont mulch t5 3+. I wonder how you kill knights and custodians if you struggle with no invune save units in a max 3 unit that isn't worth spending cp to protect.

With indomidus release I have started building a cron army. Literally every unit in my army is good at killing gravis armor. I've got quantum sheilding everywhere so LOL at your melta weapons anyways. I think I'll just walk my triarch stalker up to a unit and smash them in melee with my flat 3 damage attacks and shoot them in the face the next turn if I don't kill them. That was kinda a joke...I don't expect the triarch to be doing a lot of melee it is a pretty hard counter to eradicators though with heavy gauss 6 shots str 7 ap-3 d1-3 with flat 3 in melee and quantum shielding + if buffs. The point is marines are so easy to build against and if you can kill a marine - you will will be good at killing almost anything on the table. The crys get old when the answers are so easy. It's not like ynnari when people complained....what do I do? This super Spears unit kills 2 units a turn and locks up another unit in melee a turn and is basically indestructible with 3++ saves and 5+++ - next turn moves 3 times and kills my warlord and I can't even deny the psychic powers because the units melee engagement range is higher than 24"...Like seriously guys...There are some under costed units in every army and there are super combos which can be set off practically automatically with list building that make a unit like assault intercessors completely obsolete.

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

The playtesters that now claim to have warned them.

I know I've not seen any evidence that they did, and I'm not going to take the word of an "influencer" as evidence.

if i have to chose someone to believe to, i do look at their track record on the matter in question.

GW has progressively gotten worse from 5th to 7th. In some cases drastically.
alot of the playtesters were on board for the first time.

Not saying that you are incorect, i am just pointing to a certain wraithknight comment from an actual designer and go with GW done goofed.
Mallicious or non mallicious doesn't matter

 Irbis wrote:


What is really sad, though, is that GW is willing to nerf SM rules 58767 times in a row, almost never touching FW junk. Fixing IH supplement was as simple as ruling trait only applies to codex units, not to third party stuff - but they choose to ruin the rules for people who play weaker plastic units instead, virtually ensuring leviathan/contemptor wombo combo will show up right quick (and surprise, surprise, people spam them again with 9th edition changes). They should just slam the cancer directly, not play around them because last 4 years demonstrated how little it does.

40k rules for FW stuff are written entirely by the core studio, this has been the case for several years, and FW is absolutely not a "third party", FW is a subdivision of GW (like Accounting or IT), located at GW HQ and staffed by GW employees, that do things that aren't profitable in plastic or that's too niche for the primary design team but that otherwise has consumer interest. The SM Supplements were (and in many ways still are) plenty busted on their own and in need of adjustment regardless of the existence of FW. Out of all the stuff FW makes, we see almost none of it used competitively, and a far lower proportion of FW units have issues being problems than main studio units and abilities. GW already effectively eviscerated the functionality and playability of the overwhelmingly vast majority of FW stuff at the start of 8E, one is really having to go out of their way to see FW as the problem and paint them as some sort of "third party", neither of which is true.

Dudeface wrote:
I was looking to find the ynnari win rates at the end of the 2018 season and stumbles across the thread where they got nerfed on Dakka and it was refreshing to see (often the same) people just throwing the same sorts of comments and overreactions about Eldar.

A lot of loudest marine complainers were also very pro-eldar oddly...

Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
LIke, feth people who just played "ynnari" with 12 harlequin skyweavers so they have to doubleshoot, I'm not shedding any tears for those guys, and feth old SFD I absolutely hated it in general, I just cant think of anyone who was required to buy more mandatory gak in a shorter period of time to keep their army legal to play, and who got more nerfs in that time period than Ynnari, and if there was any 'fluff based' ynnari players in existence I feel bad for them.

Yeah, it's sad. It's the same for SM players who had fluffy, codex-only lists, only to see them nerfed again and again because some gitgud types spam 3 leviathans and 3 contemptors (with nerfs not touching actual cancer). Custodes fans who get no love because again, FW spam of broken gak artificially raises winrate making army look good on paper. Chaos renegades, who got their armies ruined thanks to knee jerk reaction to couple OP FW units. Really, GW would do well to go back to writing fluffy, thematic side lists (I still love Tyrant's Legion concept after playing it for years) instead of catering to soulless tournament crowd exclusively. Hopefully Crusade marks return to such thinking...

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

The playtesters that now claim to have warned them.

I know I've not seen any evidence that they did, and I'm not going to take the word of an "influencer" as evidence.

Yeah.

And to be fair to GW, Iron Hands rules were not that big of a problem when taken with Codex dreadnoughts. Though hard, they were still killable. It's when people started to spam broken FW garbage with them the game crashed. Leviathans, already obscene, became impossible to kill - something the writer playtesting the codex as is could have overlooked, but said playtesters who saw tournaments before missed them as well, and unlike the writer, they had no excuse to. Or they did saw it, but their lists spammed the things too so they choose to stay silent to protect their purchases (which is even worse).

What is really sad, though, is that GW is willing to nerf SM rules 58767 times in a row, almost never touching FW junk. Fixing IH supplement was as simple as ruling trait only applies to codex units, not to third party stuff - but they choose to ruin the rules for people who play weaker plastic units instead, virtually ensuring leviathan/contemptor wombo combo will show up right quick (and surprise, surprise, people spam them again with 9th edition changes). They should just slam the cancer directly, not play around them because last 4 years demonstrated how little it does.

Oh look complaints about FW without actually knowing whats OP haven't seen that before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and for the record the problem was Iron Hands, not the Leviathans themselves. Keep telling yourself otherwise though I'm sure it'll help.

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:
The difference is that you can play any eldar units as anything. There are no enforced rules that to get what ever craftworld is the best at the moment to play it what ever it is painted. If someone paints their DA army the wrong colour of green they have to play a succesor chapter, which by definition is just an inferior version of a DA army.

So even with that eldar players have it better.
And in general in is super hard to impossible to feel any sympathy to the eldar players plight right now. Yes they aren't the best army right now, but comparing to the really bad factions in 9th, they are sitll gods. And they have been bad, which seems to mean not the best army in the meta, for what 9-12 months, out of which 2/3 is covid where no one can play at store anyway. When eldar get 2-3 editions of bad rules and being the most bottom tier of all factions, maybe people will be more sympathetic to what is happening to them. I for one still remember the flyers lists, the Inari reapers and shining spears, double dipping on stratagems etc. And all I know is 8th, from stories from older players, if they are even a bit true, they were even more unfun to play in 7th and prior editions.

Um.

Where does it say this in the rules, my dude?

Where does it say "Dark Angels MUST be painted DARK ANGELS GREEN and you MUST use them as something else if the green isn't right- oh lololol there's no color scheme for Biel-Tan you can paint those guys whatever you want and run them as whatever you want!!"

Like, what? The craftworlds have established color schemes. They've had them EXACTLY, EXACTLY as long as space marine chapters have had color schemes, right from fething rogue trader on. It's just as legitimate to complain if someone shows up with a blue and yellow eldar army and aren't playing alaitoc as it is if they show up with blue and gold and aren't playing UM. Basically: not at all, it's not anywhere in the rules, you don't have a fething leg to stand on.

I'm guessing Karol's toxic community strikes again. I mean he's not entirely wrong that more people know the cannon schemes of Marines and thus you're more likely to get stink eyed if you show up with green ultramarines. but that's not GW that's just community. IIRC last I checked for GW held events all armies must be painted to their proper faction. not just marines. and that's pretty much only an issue for warhammer world events.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I was looking to find the ynnari win rates at the end of the 2018 season and stumbles across the thread where they got nerfed on Dakka and it was refreshing to see (often the same) people just throwing the same sorts of comments and overreactions about Eldar.

A lot of loudest marine complainers were also very pro-eldar oddly...

Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.

agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.

If someone doesn’t want to play my blood ravens as counts as ultramarines, I’ll count myself lucky I didn’t end up in a game with someone like that unknowingly.

I do think it’s rather iffy to use detachments that have different chapter traits but are painted the same though. That seems too confusing.

but..but..mathammer says it is better so?

It makes no sense why they(people claiming X) resort to being disingenuous. I mean really, you can make anything look good/bad with the right comparison.

 argonak wrote:
If someone doesn’t want to play my blood ravens as counts as ultramarines, I’ll count myself lucky I didn’t end up in a game with someone like that unknowingly.

Blood Ravens should be able to count as any Chapter they want, anyway. It's not like they wouldn't nick the Chapter Tactics along with all the relics.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.

agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.

Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of elite-melta-anti-armor-specialists. One of these units vastly outperforms that function better than the other one, and surprise! Its the NuMarine one. Gosh, why would anyone take issue with that?

It's pretty eye-rolling.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.

agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.

Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of elite-melta-anti-armor-specialists. One of these units vastly outperforms that function better than the other one, and surprise! Its the NuMarine one. Gosh, why would anyone take issue with that?

It's pretty eye-rolling.

so you've seen the new eldar codex?

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.

agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.

Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of elite-melta-anti-armor-specialists. One of these units vastly outperforms that function better than the other one, and surprise! Its the NuMarine one. Gosh, why would anyone take issue with that?

It's pretty eye-rolling.

so you've seen the new eldar codex?

Lmfao you sure gotteeeeem with that one haha

well they sure are talking like they have insider info, you know with absolutes and bold statements.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.

agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.

Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of elite-melta-anti-armor-specialists. One of these units vastly outperforms that function better than the other one, and surprise! Its the NuMarine one. Gosh, why would anyone take issue with that?

It's pretty eye-rolling.

so you've seen the new eldar codex?

The current state of things is the current state of things, and until the new Eldar book arrives this is the situation we're in.

Have you seen the Eldar codex? Can you prove Fire Dragons will be substantially upgraded? Are the "art-of-the-Melta-specialists" all going to get increased range and Fast Shot, for example?

If we're wanting to compare Fire Dragons to Eradicators, I don't think that's unfair, just dismissing Fire Dragons as inherently bad so as to not be comparable to the Primaris unit I don't think is accurate in this case, they're certainly no Railgun Hammerhead or Russ Vanquisher. They're ostensibly designed to fill the same niche and are armed with weapons of similar design and operation as Eradicators, the Eradicators just do it better in every way. The Fire dragon has remained identical in terms of stats, cost, and weapons since 6E, and before that it was nearly identical except was a bit cheaper and had a 4+ save instead of a 3+ going back to 1998. In fact, the Fire Dragon is arguably more capable than it ever was before, getting to reroll 1's against vehicles and MC's. Their delivery mechanisms (primarily Wave Serpents, sometimes Falcons), are about as capable as they've ever been and remain roughly the same cost as they have been in previous editions. A unit of 5 Fire Dragons will generally kill most common vehicles in a single round of fire unsupported if allowed to attack from close enough range, same as they have in most editions. If that's a unit that's so underwhelming as to be considered to be incomparable to Eradicators, methinks it speaks more to the bloat of the system and powercreep of such newer units, than it does to the inherent awfulness of an older unit like Fire Dragons.

no, but I'm not saying one way or the other. drawing conclusions from an incomplete dataset isnt to terribly smart.

Racerguy180 wrote:
no, but I'm not saying one way or the other. drawing conclusions from an incomplete dataset isnt to terribly smart.

Have I drawn a conclusion from an incomplete data set or merely observed the state as is?

People are playing with these forces right now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.

agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.

Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of melta

See im stopping you right there because nobody has dared yet to say which Melta units actually functioned beforehand.

so you admit that you dont have all the data and are drawing a conclusion from an incomplete data set?

By that very admission, your conclusion is only part of the whole. so when someone says that x is better than y, without knowing what y is(cuz indomitus stuff isnt the final & ZERO 9th ed codex are available), that doesnt mean anything? huh, never woulda guessed.