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Most of us think Old Marines are going to be supplanted by Primaris in a slow death march to obscurity and Legends.

I think there are some major tipoffs we could see in the Codex that either contradict or announce this.

Bjorn in a Redemptor would almost certainly confirm it.

Allowing Primaris in old-marine transports, and old marines in Primaris Transports would almost certainly refute it. While I can see GW economical enough to make the switch for Drop Pods rather than creating a second Drop Pod model, if they allow mix and match in Razorbacks, Rhinos, and Land Raiders and their Primaris versions things suddenly get a lot more interesting. If you can mix and match your HQ's and your Troops there's no push to upgrade something you prefer old/new.

What are some of the signs you'll be watching for, aside from the obvious of missing all Old Marine Datasheets.

Breton wrote:
a slow death march to obscurity and Legends.

Obscurity, maybe. Legends, I don't think so.

We've just seen Firstborn bumped up to 2 wounds. We also see Heavy Intercessors getting a one-per-squad option. The former puts Firstborn closer to Primaris stats; the latter puts Primaris closer to Firstborn flexibility.

I expect to see, sometime in the next few years, the lore outright state that all Marines have crossed the Rubicon, and all Marines will be Primaris from that point forward. They might make Legends stats for vehicles that don't have direct Primaris counterparts, but I expect that the official policy will be that Firstborn can simply be played as their Primaris equivalents.

So, I'll be looking for more direct Primaris counterparts to existing Firstborn units, and more options given to Primaris that get them a little closer to Firstborn flexibility (eg specials/heavies on Intercessors).

I think the writing's on the wall- one way or another, Firstborn are on life support, with no new releases since the launch of 8th. Folding them into their Primaris successors seems the cleanest way to discontinue them without drawing the ire of Firstborn players.

 catbarf wrote:

Breton wrote:
a slow death march to obscurity and Legends.

Obscurity, maybe. Legends, I don't think so.

We've just seen Firstborn bumped up to 2 wounds. We also see Heavy Intercessors getting a one-per-squad option. The former puts Firstborn closer to Primaris stats; the latter puts Primaris closer to Firstborn flexibility.

I expect to see, sometime in the next few years, the lore outright state that all Marines have crossed the Rubicon, and all Marines will be Primaris from that point forward. They might make Legends stats for vehicles that don't have direct Primaris counterparts, but I expect that the official policy will be that Firstborn can simply be played as their Primaris equivalents.

So, I'll be looking for more direct Primaris counterparts to existing Firstborn units, and more options given to Primaris that get them a little closer to Firstborn flexibility (eg specials/heavies on Intercessors).

I think the writing's on the wall- one way or another, Firstborn are on life support, with no new releases since the launch of 8th. Folding them into their Primaris successors seems the cleanest way to discontinue them without drawing the ire of Firstborn players.

Lots of things haven't seen releases since 8th and before. Are Tyranids on life support? Battlesuits?

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Breton wrote:
a slow death march to obscurity and Legends.

Obscurity, maybe. Legends, I don't think so.

We've just seen Firstborn bumped up to 2 wounds. We also see Heavy Intercessors getting a one-per-squad option. The former puts Firstborn closer to Primaris stats; the latter puts Primaris closer to Firstborn flexibility.

I expect to see, sometime in the next few years, the lore outright state that all Marines have crossed the Rubicon, and all Marines will be Primaris from that point forward. They might make Legends stats for vehicles that don't have direct Primaris counterparts, but I expect that the official policy will be that Firstborn can simply be played as their Primaris equivalents.

So, I'll be looking for more direct Primaris counterparts to existing Firstborn units, and more options given to Primaris that get them a little closer to Firstborn flexibility (eg specials/heavies on Intercessors).

I think the writing's on the wall- one way or another, Firstborn are on life support, with no new releases since the launch of 8th. Folding them into their Primaris successors seems the cleanest way to discontinue them without drawing the ire of Firstborn players.

Lots of things haven't seen releases since 8th and before. Are Tyranids on life support? Battlesuits?

Yes.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Lots of things haven't seen releases since 8th and before. Are Tyranids on life support? Battlesuits?

Xenos factions not getting a lot of support is par for the course. Marines getting exactly zero new non-Primaris models for an entire edition? That's very different from the norm

Throw in that there are an absolute ton of Primaris releases that largely mirror roles previously covered by Firstborn, and a very deliberate segregation of product lines (no Tacticals in Impulsors, no Intercessors in Rhinos), and I think it's clear that the Primaris design philosophy is to supplant- not complement- the capabilities of Firstborn.

And FWIW, I have seen a (totally unsourced, no substantiation) rumor that Tyranids are getting retired and folded into GSC, and while I don't think it's likely, it certainly doesn't seem impossible given how they've been treated.

The whole point of it is to invalidate the massive amount of Astartes plastic and pewter on the secondary market. It's happening so that GW can finally jettison all the grogs in favor of the new; if they try to play their armies in modern 40k they'll just be laughed at (and get tabled).

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Breton wrote:
a slow death march to obscurity and Legends.

Obscurity, maybe. Legends, I don't think so.

We've just seen Firstborn bumped up to 2 wounds. We also see Heavy Intercessors getting a one-per-squad option. The former puts Firstborn closer to Primaris stats; the latter puts Primaris closer to Firstborn flexibility.

I expect to see, sometime in the next few years, the lore outright state that all Marines have crossed the Rubicon, and all Marines will be Primaris from that point forward. They might make Legends stats for vehicles that don't have direct Primaris counterparts, but I expect that the official policy will be that Firstborn can simply be played as their Primaris equivalents.

So, I'll be looking for more direct Primaris counterparts to existing Firstborn units, and more options given to Primaris that get them a little closer to Firstborn flexibility (eg specials/heavies on Intercessors).

I think the writing's on the wall- one way or another, Firstborn are on life support, with no new releases since the launch of 8th. Folding them into their Primaris successors seems the cleanest way to discontinue them without drawing the ire of Firstborn players.

Lots of things haven't seen releases since 8th and before. Are Tyranids on life support? Battlesuits?

As Eonfuzz says, just because it's not gotten a immediate release doesn't mean much. The devestator Marine kit is 5 years old, the assault marine and tactical kits are 7 years old. (less for Tac Marines as if we count the MK IV and MK III kits as alternate tac squad kits then the tac squad kit is about 4 years old) there are some kits that are twice that age or more still going strong

even if GW never makes another firstborn marine again they'll be able to keep them for a loong time




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
The whole point of it is to invalidate the massive amount of Astartes plastic and pewter on the secondary market. It's happening so that GW can finally jettison all the grogs in favor of the new; if they try to play their armies in modern 40k they'll just be laughed at (and get tabled).

right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...

BrianDavion wrote:
right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...

I somehow doubt you'll see them performing...

I don't think we'll see a oldmarine kit again, because they've pretty much covered the entire design space and the point of Primaris is to let them sell the same things over again but slightly differently.

As for what's going on for the oldmarines, I think eventually they and the primaris counterparts will grow closer to each other until the units merge.

The 2W for oldmarines and 1 heavy per unit for primaris supports this.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
As for what's going on for the oldmarines, I think eventually they and the primaris counterparts will grow closer to each other until the units merge.

I don't think they'll ever merge them because that would allow old models to be played as Primaris in official events.

 catbarf wrote:


And FWIW, I have seen a (totally unsourced, no substantiation) rumor that Tyranids are getting retired and folded into GSC, and while I don't think it's likely, it certainly doesn't seem impossible given how they've been treated.

I just bought a giant box of rock salt to paint camo cloaks, and I still don't have enough for that whopper. If anything GSC would get folded back into Nids where they began.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Lots of things haven't seen releases since 8th and before. Are Tyranids on life support? Battlesuits?

Incomparable.

GW hasn't come out with a whole range of replacement Primaris Tyranids or Primaris Battlesuits, that are like the originals, but just slightly bigger and better.

BrianDavion wrote:
right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...

As has been said by myself and multiple others since GW told us of the changes to First Born Marines, you cannot replace something as iconic, intrinsic, and ingrained as First Born Marines overnight. Not even with 2 editions could you do this. It is folly! (/Boromir)

And, again, the reason they are W2 now is to blur the lines between First Born and Primaris, so that it eases their removal next edition, or maybe even the edition after that (or, at the very least, two Codices from now). It will be couched in terms of "We saw that the Space Marines now have over 100 data sheets, and this could be confusing to new players. So we have taken it upon ourselves to remove some of our more venerable options from the Codex to leave a leaner (and meaner) list of units... etc.", and all the Primaris units will remain.

BrianDavion wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
The whole point of it is to invalidate the massive amount of Astartes plastic and pewter on the secondary market. It's happening so that GW can finally jettison all the grogs in favor of the new; if they try to play their armies in modern 40k they'll just be laughed at (and get tabled).

right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...

I think they absolutely planned to squat old marines. I think they saw the reaction and wet themselves. Or worse. I think they still plan to squat them, but now they're trying to really ride the fence so they can sell as much backstock as they can as well as placate as many die hard oldmarine players. I don't think the 2W change means anything but trying to throw a bone to old marine players and make their tacticals not suck. Which makes me laugh even more at the people complaining about Heavy Intercessors. Tacs (before the 2W) are the Heavy Intercessor changes inverted. Boosting them to 2W will put more on the table top, both mollifying old marine players for an edition or two, and selling a few more kits if they can find a sweet spot on price per model for the third Troop Slot.

It's clear as day what they're doing, yet everyone seems to want to play some weird game of 5-D chess.

Just look at how AoS changed, and compare that to what's happening in 40K. The difference is that more of 40K was already original works, less need to re-brand whole armies.

My suspicion is that they began slowly with the first two waves of primaris releases, then with 9th, they set forward a big dump of new models.

Now that we're about to move past that, they'll shift focus to other factions, most likely Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Guard and a likely other wave of Chaos Marines to finish out the missing kits.

 Togusa wrote:
It's clear as day what they're doing, yet everyone seems to want to play some weird game of 5-D chess.

Just look at how AoS changed, and compare that to what's happening in 40K. The difference is that more of 40K was already original works, less need to re-brand whole armies.

My suspicion is that they began slowly with the first two waves of primaris releases, then with 9th, they set forward a big dump of new models.

Now that we're about to move past that, they'll shift focus to other factions, most likely Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Guard and a likely other wave of Chaos Marines to finish out the missing kits.

IP is definitely part of it. Guard are almost definitely next. Adeptus Astartes didn't take, people still call them Space Marines - heck, even GW still does. Changing the codex name from :Space Marines to rimaris will likely be the final nail. Astra Militarum didn't really land either. They're already setting up Phase II of the Guard revamp with the Cadia story line.

As I said I think Guard are probably next, but it could be Nids. In the first place, you'd be able to do Primaris v Nids boxed sets easier than Primaris v Guard but they also have to seperate from the Alien/Starship Troopers grey area.

Codex: Adeptus Primaris.

That's when we'll know.

yeah I'd not be suprised to see a big guard revamp. and TBH I think it'll likely go over a bit better if GW's smart about it. bring out creed or yarrick, fluff that Gulliman tasked them with creating a "new model army" (a nice little nod to british history) introduce a new looks for guard fluffed as the new standardized kit, introduce some new vehicles, and fluff that while everything was supposed to be replaced with old inventory going to equip PDFs etc logistical hurdles as well as individual commanders mean that "old classics like the lemen russ will almost certainly be continued to be used for centuries to come"

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I'd not be suprised to see a big guard revamp. and TBH I think it'll likely go over a bit better if GW's smart about it. bring out creed or yarrick, fluff that Gulliman tasked them with creating a "new model army" (a nice little nod to british history) introduce a new looks for guard fluffed as the new standardized kit, introduce some new vehicles, and fluff that while everything was supposed to be replaced with old inventory going to equip PDFs etc logistical hurdles as well as individual commanders mean that "old classics like the lemen russ will almost certainly be continued to be used for centuries to come"

Story-wise Yarrick kinda needs to get involved in the Armageddon situation.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I'd not be suprised to see a big guard revamp. and TBH I think it'll likely go over a bit better if GW's smart about it. bring out creed or yarrick, fluff that Gulliman tasked them with creating a "new model army" (a nice little nod to british history) introduce a new looks for guard fluffed as the new standardized kit, introduce some new vehicles, and fluff that while everything was supposed to be replaced with old inventory going to equip PDFs etc logistical hurdles as well as individual commanders mean that "old classics like the lemen russ will almost certainly be continued to be used for centuries to come"

Story-wise Yarrick kinda needs to get involved in the Armageddon situation.

I'm, oddly, gonna disagree. Yarrick's "great white whale" is Ghaz, not nesscarily Armageddon.

 catbarf wrote:

Firstborn are on life support, with no new releases since the launch of 8th.

Sisters didn't get new releases for 20 years. Not just for a line of their models, the entire army. And yet they always resisted.

Classic SM have so many units, most of them still fairly recent, that could be ok without new releases for 20 years at least, even if the entire primaris line didn't existed. But who knows, when the primaris line will be dried out of options GW could re-launch firstborn marines. Or maybe marines 3.0.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I'd not be suprised to see a big guard revamp. and TBH I think it'll likely go over a bit better if GW's smart about it. bring out creed or yarrick, fluff that Gulliman tasked them with creating a "new model army" (a nice little nod to british history) introduce a new looks for guard fluffed as the new standardized kit, introduce some new vehicles, and fluff that while everything was supposed to be replaced with old inventory going to equip PDFs etc logistical hurdles as well as individual commanders mean that "old classics like the lemen russ will almost certainly be continued to be used for centuries to come"

Story-wise Yarrick kinda needs to get involved in the Armageddon situation.

Yarrick could still be on Armageddon, it was only a year ago.
Story Wise Creed should still be lost on Cadia or something.

I'd expect to see a new character (Yarrick might free up from Armageddon for this but probably new and probably Militarum Tempestus) to be a mini-Guilliman He may or may not have a specific subfaction like Chapter/Regiment - but his special rules will at least somewhat cross all different regiments for application. He'll be a Lord Solar Macharius type.

Breton wrote:
Yarrick could still be on Armageddon, it was only a year ago.
Story Wise Creed should still be lost on Cadia or something.

Yarrick, along with High Marshal Helbrecht, left Armageddon in pursuit of Ghazghkull before Cadia fell - aside from not being on Armageddon any more, it is unclear where he is these days (see pages 31 & 65 of Codex: Imperial Guard for confirmation).

Creed is in a Necron's stasis prison - I believe in the collection of Trazyn the Infinite?

On top of that, Colour Sergeant Kell is confirmed dead during the fall of Cadia, spitting in Abaddon's eye. I'mm not sure about Pask, Harker or Straken, but the IG seem to be running low on special characters...

Perfect time for Yarrick to arrive at the 11th hour and save the planet again.

If they allow non-Astartes to be protagonists, that is.

 Dysartes wrote:
, but the IG seem to be running low on special characters...

That's part of why I think new. Plus Creed was the only General AFAIK of their datasheet'ed special characters. They're going to need a top dog to rival-ish G in status. I mean sure, Lord Commander of the Imperium and all so not direct rival, but a parallel of relative importance inside the faction and High Lord of Terra that still gets out and kicks butt would be close enough.

Breton wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
, but the IG seem to be running low on special characters...

That's part of why I think new. Plus Creed was the only General AFAIK of their datasheet'ed special characters. They're going to need a top dog to rival-ish G in status. I mean sure, Lord Commander of the Imperium and all so not direct rival, but a parallel of relative importance inside the faction and High Lord of Terra that still gets out and kicks butt would be close enough.

Canonically the head of the IG is the Lord Commander Militant. No idea who that is currently.

right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...

So I think it's a bit optimistic to say giving firstborn the second wound (while also giving them the 20% point hike) actually does make them more competitive w/Primaris, but I also think that's a side effect of what GW was actually looking to do.

They have said publicly that they want CSM armies to contain actual marines and fewer cultists. Naturally, rather than make CSM better in order to accomplish this, they just made cultists worse. The problem is, CSM are so bad, even the lessened cultists were still better.

While Old Marine players are upset about their models sliding into obscurity, you have CSM players who are voluntarily driving Chaos marines into obscurity by not using them because of how flat out terrible they are. So GW moved on to the 2 wounds thing. And you know they're not going to give standard CSM 2 wounds without giving loyalist Marines 2 wounds. It was, IMO, just a side effect of wanting to improve Chaos. Personally, I feel like 2w on Plague Marines and Rubrics is pretty great, but I think it's actually going to have the opposite effect on bog-standard CSM. Time will tell I suppose.

Firstborn actually got two releases in 8th via SM Heroes.

The only things Primaris are missing to replace old Marines are missile launchers and CC Jump Pack troops I think. Once these are out GW might release a nice sheet that tells you how to use your old Marines: SM with Heavy Bolter = Heavy Intercessor, SM with Melta= Eradicators, SM with Plasma = Helblaster, Bike = Bike and so on. People will continue to use their old collections just fine, like they always did. And people who threw away their Pariahs or old wraiths because they considered them too different from their replacement will do the same with old Marines, but honestly, that's not GWs problem.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
right which explains why they buffed first born marines to be VERY compeitive with Primaris, makes perfect sense...

I somehow doubt you'll see them performing...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/14/codex-space-marines-weapons-and-wargear-updates/

Its amazing how many old marine units they're trying to sell with the wound and weapon changes...

Breton wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
, but the IG seem to be running low on special characters...

That's part of why I think new. Plus Creed was the only General AFAIK of their datasheet'ed special characters. They're going to need a top dog to rival-ish G in status. I mean sure, Lord Commander of the Imperium and all so not direct rival, but a parallel of relative importance inside the faction and High Lord of Terra that still gets out and kicks butt would be close enough.

The Lord Commander Militant shouldn't leave his desk. In fact, really, anybody above Captain/Major [Company Commander], probably shouldn't be on the front lines barring special exception and should be coordinating their units from their command post.

The Lord Commander Militant is responsible for overseeing the upkeep, support, and galactic commitment of the Imperial Guard across a massive number of warzones, for them to leave their post to dally about on the battlefield would be reckless at best and an outright dereliction of their duties.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Firstborn actually got two releases in 8th via SM Heroes.

A blind box release made for a different market that then gets a general release later on is hardly a "Firstborn release". And the second one was Terminators. They're quite a bit different ot your average Marine.