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Tyel wrote: I don't really understand why the Kelermorph upsets people for fluff reasons.
If you mean me, I don't care about the stats of his weapons. I just find the whole 'false hero of the people' thing absurd.
Are you really telling me no one stops to question why this "hero" has an extra limb? And unlike the Locus and his tail, it's not even as if the Kelermorph goes out of the way to hide that particular feature.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Am not even an astartes player, but besides that.
He doesn't even fit well with the aesthetique and the rest of the style of the faction. He just comparatively doesn't really fit in. Neither doctrine wise, nor style wise
And he doesn't even "not fit in" in a good way.
When i think of GSC and their infiltration and focus on mining, hiding and especially on infiltration of: military, PDF, Elites, I think of stuff like the nexos, magus, sanctus, the rider thingy with a sniperrifle on more rural worlds.
I also think sabotage and ambush, yet there is not one HQ for Sabotage?
To be honest, you're wrong.
Not Online!!! wrote: Why have 2 charachters that do the same thing, when one solves the issues allready and you still have a vast hole in the army doctrine and fighting style`?
it would've been better to fill that hole first, but GW do GW.
That isn't an argument against the Kelermorph. What is your actual argument against it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: I don't really understand why the Kelermorph upsets people for fluff reasons. The cries of "noooo, he should have 3 S3 AP- shots" just came across as so weird. Such would be... quite useless.
It's literally people who think that GSC shouldn't have nice things, rules wise *or* fluff wise *or* model wise. They have to have others' play experience be worse to be satisfied.
Not Online is actually suggesting making the army stronger by giving them units that don't duplicate roles. That's the opposite of what you're ranting about. He's suggesting they get more, better toys.
Not Online!!! wrote: Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.
You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.
What role should have been filled instead?
It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.
Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.
This, the kellermorph couldve been an actual usefull choice instead of beeing an assasin that then promptly got nerfed into the ground.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.
You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.
What role should have been filled instead?
It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.
Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.
This, the kellermorph couldve been an actual usefull choice instead of beeing an assasin that then promptly got nerfed into the ground.
Gosh, you think it would still be useful if it weren't nerfed into the ground?
Not Online!!! wrote: Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.
You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.
What role should have been filled instead?
It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.
Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.
They assassinate in different ways?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 18:59:00
Not Online!!! wrote: Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.
You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.
What role should have been filled instead?
It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.
Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.
This, the kellermorph couldve been an actual usefull choice instead of beeing an assasin that then promptly got nerfed into the ground.
Gosh, you think it would still be useful if it weren't nerfed into the ground?
Har har, but yes of course, because there are roles and capabilities that Make Units more nerf resistant then beeing a high dakka asassin.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 19:02:44
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.
You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.
What role should have been filled instead?
It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.
Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.
This, the kellermorph couldve been an actual usefull choice instead of beeing an assasin that then promptly got nerfed into the ground.
Gosh, you think it would still be useful if it weren't nerfed into the ground?
Har har, but yes of course, because there are roles and capabilities that Make Units more nerf resistant then beeing a high dakka asassin.
So being a "high dakka assassin" isn't a viable role?
Not Online!!! wrote: Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.
You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.
What role should have been filled instead?
It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.
Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.
This, the kellermorph couldve been an actual usefull choice instead of beeing an assasin that then promptly got nerfed into the ground.
Gosh, you think it would still be useful if it weren't nerfed into the ground?
Har har, but yes of course, because there are roles and capabilities that Make Units more nerf resistant then beeing a high dakka asassin.
So being a "high dakka assassin" isn't a viable role?
No it would be but considering gw's track record of allowing assasins to work and having high dakka.... Eehh predestinated nerf target....
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Dude Like i said i am no astartes player.
And yes i am going to complain, not about the kellermorph as a unit but as a role that was filled whilest there still is a hole in the faction that should be filled instead.
You know the Imperium has four different types of assassins, right? Not even counting the Death Cult Assassins.
What role should have been filled instead?
It's not worth the discussion, Not Online is arguing the army is lacking in a few other key points so adding another unit entry that performs a similar/same role as another didn't add value to the army. That's not wrong but likewise replacing the kellermorph with a different 1 model character unit isn't going to fix the army either.
Imperium is spoiled with a glut of options by definition, despite that the 5 assassins do all have different functions at least.
This, the kellermorph couldve been an actual usefull choice instead of beeing an assasin that then promptly got nerfed into the ground.
Gosh, you think it would still be useful if it weren't nerfed into the ground?
Har har, but yes of course, because there are roles and capabilities that Make Units more nerf resistant then beeing a high dakka asassin.
So being a "high dakka assassin" isn't a viable role?
The bigg issue is it is an instant feels bad unit, if it does it's job the reciever of said assassination has just lost a key part of their army (stupid aura buffbots) or the kellormorf whiffs and the GSC player feels bad for taking said unit.
GW really need to decied do they want player agency or not and then build a game play paradigm and stick too it, not keep moving the goal posts every 3 codex's.
But Not Online is right assassins have always gone through woefully inept as when they finally get made to work like one shot wonders it's kinda sucky watching them destroy key charictors with zero defence.
Ice_can wrote: The bigg issue is it is an instant feels bad unit, if it does it's job the reciever of said assassination has just lost a key part of their army (stupid aura buffbots) or the kellormorf whiffs and the GSC player feels bad for taking said unit.
Honestly I don't give a gak if Little Timmy feels bad that his Astartes captain got assassinated. GSC players can take the wiff in stride. Players need to be able to make meaningful decisions in-game with consequences, otherwise it isn't a game, just "cinematic dice rolling" like Kirby used to say.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: No it would be but considering gw's track record of allowing assasins to work and having high dakka.... Eehh predestinated nerf target....
The argument, then, is that GW shouldn't have nerfed it, if we're being intellectually honest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 20:04:47
Ice_can wrote: The bigg issue is it is an instant feels bad unit, if it does it's job the reciever of said assassination has just lost a key part of their army (stupid aura buffbots) or the kellormorf whiffs and the GSC player feels bad for taking said unit.
Honestly I don't give a gak if Little Timmy feels bad that his Astartes captain got assassinated. GSC players can take the wiff in stride. Players need to be able to make meaningful decisions in-game with consequences, otherwise it isn't a game, just "cinematic dice rolling" like Kirby used to say.
you might not care but GW does as they are supposedly trying to remove feelbad moments unless your playing against marines but it is what it is.
Ice_can wrote: you might not care but GW does as they are supposedly trying to remove feelbad moments unless your playing against marines but it is what it is.
Yes, and it's wrongheaded. The whole point is we're criticizing the decision as wrong.
Ice_can wrote: you might not care but GW does as they are supposedly trying to remove feelbad moments unless your playing against marines but it is what it is.
Yes, and it's wrongheaded. The whole point is we're criticizing the decision as wrong.
I agree but it's been this way for 20 years, every time they make assasins that work they either cost as much as a tank or throw snowballs.
GW seems to want to give people assasins just not ones that work.
Not Online!!! wrote:Instead of making him John wayne in space.
That's what sold me on the model.
Totally fits the aesthetic, fits in with the lore, and if it doesn't for your GSC, don't get one. Bikes don't fit my ideal aesthetic for Space Marines, so I don't often take them, but I don't complain they shouldn't exist.
I also don't see anything wrong with John Wayne in space
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...
Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...
Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?
All episodes of Enterprise are bad.
I dunno, I like the BLAM BLAM BLAM over the PEW PEW PEW. I'm thinking triple wielding S+W 500s.
Xenomancers wrote: Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...
Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?
All episodes of Enterprise are bad.
I dunno, I like the BLAM BLAM BLAM over the PEW PEW PEW. I'm thinking triple wielding S+W 500s.
Xenomancers wrote: Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...
Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?
All episodes of Enterprise are bad.
I dunno, I like the BLAM BLAM BLAM over the PEW PEW PEW. I'm thinking triple wielding S+W 500s.
Could go the Firefly route and have BLAM mixed with PEW.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Honestly I don't give a gak if Little Timmy feels bad that his Astartes captain got assassinated. GSC players can take the wiff in stride. Players need to be able to make meaningful decisions in-game with consequences, otherwise it isn't a game, just "cinematic dice rolling" like Kirby used to say.
I agree with you on principle, but I'm not seeing how the Kelermorph being able to effortlessly blow away even very tough characters makes for "meaningful decisions".
I would think, in order to have decisions of actual value, you would need to have more options and counterplay than 'Can assassin kill Captain in one round of shooting, y/n?'
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
whiny imperial players wrote: 3 pages of proving my point for me.
Lance845 wrote: Everyone arguing fluff comparison is completely missing the point. It's a damn game and the unit serves a purpose to the army in the form of a character assassin. It's stats need to represent it's role and be effective at doing it's job.
It doesn't mater if you can't figure out what the gun is shooting. It doesn't mater if you think it would be more thematic to double or triple down on the saboteur aspect. The faction got a character assassin unit (which ALSO fits with that theme btw) and it's stat line and weapons did the job the army needed it to.
How they explain it all is completely trivial.
THIS.
No problems with imperial assassins, no proems with space marine characters who can deal 3x the damage on the drop. Zero regard for the common statlines of characters in 8th necessitating a particular damage output for such a piece to work just "WEPPIN CALLED STUB SHOULD NOT HAVE CRAZY INSANE STATLINE LIKE S4 ap-1 d2!!!"
They dont even care about the actual lore explanation (the bullets are radioactive or something).
Marines get ap-1 on their stubbers by making them "ironhail." Whats the lore behind that? Eh, who cares. Certainly not yall.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
And in fairness, GW could piss in bottles of water, sell them with 'we've literally urinated in these lmao' labels and they'd probably still sell out with a lot of people telling them it's the best water ever.
And then ebay scalpers would be making $300 a bottle.
You are wrong to do so , hahah
(actually I never really saw it, but I had a roommate who watched it religiously and it didn't grab me.)
All in fun, all in fun.
Xenomancers wrote: Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...
Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?
All episodes of Enterprise are bad.
I dunno, I like the BLAM BLAM BLAM over the PEW PEW PEW. I'm thinking triple wielding S+W 500s.
Could go the Firefly route and have BLAM mixed with PEW.
Aww it's been a while, I had to look it up.
I was also thinking of the Robocop gun, the scene at the firing range in particular.
Honestly I don't give a gak if Little Timmy feels bad that his Astartes captain got assassinated. GSC players can take the wiff in stride. Players need to be able to make meaningful decisions in-game with consequences, otherwise it isn't a game, just "cinematic dice rolling" like Kirby used to say.
I agree with you on principle, but I'm not seeing how the Kelermorph being able to effortlessly blow away even very tough characters makes for "meaningful decisions".
I would think, in order to have decisions of actual value, you would need to have more options and counterplay than 'Can assassin kill Captain in one round of shooting, y/n?'
I mean the question is whether or not to go in for that attack run on any given turn, and whether the opposing character tries to hide from the Kelermorph. There *is* counterplay, just it means not running your "press A to win" strategy that Astartes players love.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...
Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?
Maybe, but you could say the same thing about Astartes and their bolt weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 23:14:58
I mean the question is whether or not to go in for that attack run on any given turn, and whether the opposing character tries to hide from the Kelermorph. There *is* counterplay, just it means not running your "press A to win" strategy that Astartes players love.
I'll be honest, that really doesn't sound like meaningful options or counterplay.
And just to be clear, I'm not arguing that the Kelermorph should be weaker, because that doesn't fix the issue either.
It's more an illustration of the fact that 40k just isn't a mechanically deep game. Let's be honest here, 'move into range and shoot' is hardly involved gameplay or meaningful decision making. Not when it could just as easily be done by a simple if/then algorithm.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Xenomancers wrote: Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...
Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?
eh... i mean laser weapons are cool and all, but I imagine most imperial armor is meant to stop or defend against laser weaponry mroe than slugs. Also a large revolver in modern loads has a lot of energy behind it, often rivaling full rifle rounds, move that forward to space age materials with scifi things like a super hard diamond tip on rounds, some unheard of pressures being abel to be used, due to some unobtanium metal shell casing, forcing cone, barrel and cylinder etc.
As someone who has played orks Vindicares are far more terrifying and frustrating then the kelermorph ever was. They park across the map unable to be hit by anything except a suiciding flyer and just gib your weirdboy/big mek/warboss once a turn unless they are cowering in a trukk or battlewagon and thus contributing nothing to your army.
Not Online!!! wrote: No it would be but considering gw's track record of allowing assasins to work and having high dakka.... Eehh predestinated nerf target....
The argument, then, is that GW shouldn't have nerfed it, if we're being intellectually honest.
Actually, i am unsure, i think he was a bit overly effective.
The argument would be more akin to stop GW from using the Southpark Chicken kazoo method when balancing in general. Preferably before a dex is out.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
7000 
