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Don't forget Space Marine characters that can get mastercrafted weapons and shoot characters.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

I do wonder, what the thought behind that was, other then Sniperscouts need to be replaced by primaris, so make the primaris unit be the superior in any way to sniperscouts via allowing them to ignore LoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Don't forget Space Marine characters that can get mastercrafted weapons and shoot characters.

There are similar relics/traits that make sense for specific subfactions but why SM Hq's needed that when you have now access to two sniper units is indeed a bit wierd and reeks of:" we need to fill up the 6/ subfaction relics." "How about we make a sniper boltgun relic" "great idea".

Not Online!!! 792175 10938259 wrote:
There are similar relics/traits that make sense for specific subfactions but why SM Hq's needed that when you have now access to two sniper units is indeed a bit wierd and reeks of:" we need to fill up the 6/ subfaction relics." "How about we make a sniper boltgun relic" "great idea".

Better gear, stats and relics is just proof of the superiority of the human race, not just being a meme in w40k.

Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! 792175 10938259 wrote:
There are similar relics/traits that make sense for specific subfactions but why SM Hq's needed that when you have now access to two sniper units is indeed a bit wierd and reeks of:" we need to fill up the 6/ subfaction relics." "How about we make a sniper boltgun relic" "great idea".

Better gear, stats and relics is just proof of the superiority of the human race, not just being a meme in w40k.

Is that a joke Karol?

He keeps posting these things all over the marine threads to trigger some sort of response, just ignore him.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

Not Online!!! 792175 10938269 wrote:
Better gear, stats and relics is just proof of the superiority of the human race, not just being a meme in w40k.
Is that a joke Karol?

It is not, I tried to joke one time. And got a warning and post deleted for it. Not trying to joke any time in the future, just like in real life. I am trying to say that what people may not like to hear about w40k. Space marines are the protagonists of the settings. They have the most rules, most books about them, most players and most sales. So even when GW decides to give each marine subfaction a bolter, melee weapon, banner and armour, you are going to a ton of options and relics for them. And if someone at the studio is also interested in the subfaction, and gives them characterful options, it is hard to be suprised.
I mean no one has seen the SW codex yet, unless they work for GW or do codex translations, but is anyone expecting them to not have more then 1 melee relic in their codex?

I agree, Primaris are the Mary Sue of the 41st millenium, totally unrealistic to the setting. But we have to live with that, we have to play the game as the designers want us too or find another game.

 Denegaar wrote:
I agree, Primaris are the Mary Sue of the 41st millenium, totally unrealistic to the setting. But we have to live with that, we have to play the game as the designers want us too or find another game.

Find another game that isnt a lopsided piece of gak. The more money you give gw the more they think this is what you want. Stop paying them for the privilege of a bad product.

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

Well, of course those are still there. How else do you expect loyalists to compete? I mean, do you expect people to play loyalists with things like tacs, devastators, and Razorbacks? What kind of madman would do that?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

That exists but has nothing to do with your original complaint.

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

That exists but has nothing to do with your original complaint.

Same unit remains pretty effective at sniping characters from a far more defensive posture than the Kelermorph.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

That exists but has nothing to do with your original complaint.

Same unit remains pretty effective at sniping characters from a far more defensive posture than the Kelermorph.

You don't understand. Those are Astartes units. It's ok when they snipe an enemy HQ, but when a glorious Primaris hero is laid low by an enemy character, it had to be corrected.

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

That exists but has nothing to do with your original complaint.

Same unit remains pretty effective at sniping characters from a far more defensive posture than the Kelermorph.

You don't understand. Those are Astartes units. It's ok when they snipe an enemy HQ, but when a glorious Primaris hero is laid low by an enemy character, it had to be corrected.

Of course, otherwise you wouldn't be able to make low quality, sarcastic, anti-marine quips like they were going out of fashion.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

That exists but has nothing to do with your original complaint.

Same unit remains pretty effective at sniping characters from a far more defensive posture than the Kelermorph.

You don't understand. Those are Astartes units. It's ok when they snipe an enemy HQ, but when a glorious Primaris hero is laid low by an enemy character, it had to be corrected.

Of course, otherwise you wouldn't be able to make low quality, sarcastic, anti-marine quips like they were going out of fashion.

Is not make a good counter argument.

I don't have all the information on the Kelermorph, I don't have the book and updates. But from what I recall it seems like people had a huge issue with an assassin that was heavily restricted in how many one could take and was effectively a suicide unit, vs another unit that was not a suicide unit, and you could happily take multiple of them.

 Denegaar wrote:
I agree, Primaris are the Mary Sue of the 41st millenium, totally unrealistic to the setting. But we have to live with that, we have to play the game as the designers want us too or find another game.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I agree, Primaris are the Mary Sue of the 41st millenium, totally unrealistic to the setting. But we have to live with that, we have to play the game as the designers want us too or find another game.

Aye, also, it'd be marty Stu, instead ..

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I agree, Primaris are the Mary Sue of the 41st millenium, totally unrealistic to the setting. But we have to live with that, we have to play the game as the designers want us too or find another game.

Aye, also, it'd be marty Stu, instead ..

I've used the generic term because I was refering to the whole idea of Primaris, not an individual character. Use Gary or Marty if you please.
And I keep thinking than in the fluff Primaris is a blatant case of Mary Sue, as they fullfill most of the features. We can talk about it, but the thread is not about that term, sorry for using it.

my point is, they're not mary sues, it's a term people trot out time and time again to refer to just about any character in fiction that they dislike.

BrianDavion wrote:
my point is, they're not mary sues, it's a term people trot out time and time again to refer to just about any character in fiction that they dislike.

I don't dislike Marines. I could even say that I like Firstborn.

A Mary Sue doesn't have to be a flawless character, alter ego of the author. Trekkies Tale is 50 years old...
GW wants their customers to be identified by the human race of their universe, and thats a form of Mary Sue, clearly. They couldn't use Firstborn because they were losing, so they created a character that is better in every role, with no real flaws, that could rescue Firstborn marines and be real heros in a context where heros shouldn't exist, the Primaris. It's a marketing practice for sure, but IMO it has a lot of features of a modenized Mary Sue.

But come on thar's just my opinion, wait and see, maybe I change my mind in a month.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Can we mention squads of marines that can shoot your characters from 36" away and out of line of sight?

If you mean eliminators they faq'd the ammo to use line of sight now, those are just +2 to hit shots iirc.

And the S5 -2AP D3D + MW ammo?

That exists but has nothing to do with your original complaint.

Same unit remains pretty effective at sniping characters from a far more defensive posture than the Kelermorph.

You don't understand. Those are Astartes units. It's ok when they snipe an enemy HQ, but when a glorious Primaris hero is laid low by an enemy character, it had to be corrected.

Of course, otherwise you wouldn't be able to make low quality, sarcastic, anti-marine quips like they were going out of fashion.

Is not make a good counter argument.

I don't have all the information on the Kelermorph, I don't have the book and updates. But from what I recall it seems like people had a huge issue with an assassin that was heavily restricted in how many one could take and was effectively a suicide unit, vs another unit that was not a suicide unit, and you could happily take multiple of them.

Both are fine for the game. Safe, long range sniper units are fine for the game, single-shot suicide assassin units are fine for the game. There's a certain amount of damage that each should do accounting for the amount of damage they're likely to be able to deal over the course of a game. An eliminator squad costs about as much as a kelermorph, and does about 1/2 the damage to a T4, 4++ character in a single round of shooting. Same deal with a Vindicare vs Callidus/Eversor, they'll deal about 1/2 the damage. The Culexus is more of a utility piece with a greatly decreased target band and much higher survivability so doesn't deal nearly as much damage.

But that's the thing. The eversor/callidus are both right there. Every imperial player has access to point removal assassins that can remove a character from the board just as easily as the kelermorph can, they can just pop them into their lists without losing anything thanks to the imperial agent rule.

 Denegaar wrote:
.A Mary Sue doesn't have to be a flawless character, alter ego of the author. Trekkies Tale is 50 years old...
GW wants their customers to be identified by the human race of their universe, and thats a form of Mary Sue, clearly. They couldn't use Firstborn because they were losing, so they created a character that is better in every role, with no real flaws, that could rescue Firstborn marines and be real heros in a context where heros shouldn't exist, the Primaris. It's a marketing practice for sure, but IMO it has a lot of features of a modenized Mary Sue.

Sure, and a strawman doesn't have to be an artificial construct to more easily support ones' argument. You know what as much as either of those terms are used on Dakka, using a term with only a slight connection to what it means sounds about right.

A Mary/Marty/Gary/etc. Sue is far more than a character with no flaws. That's a flawless character, period. A Mary Sue is also a character that is generally beloved my all without really earning it. Often to include grudgingly respect even from their enemies. Which sounds about as far from Primaris in and out of the setting. Primaris space marines are also not better at every role (Tactical flexibility and horde playstyles comes to mind). That's a boogeyman that some players have created because some rules in the soon to be obsolete codex were overtuned. In a week, The difference between Primaris and Firstborn is largely going to be an additional attack on their statline and wargear.

As for rescuing Firstborn in stories. What are you expecting from basically the cavalry coming over the hill in old west stories. Primaris in the Indomitus crusade were just that. There's a bunch of stories have them struggling to find acceptance in their chapter (especially with the Dark Angels). And even a few where their strength is no comparison to Firstborn marines experience (Gabriel Seth comes to mind). Once again, it sounds like a boogyman created my people not actually interacting with the lore firsthand and generating constructs that help strengthen the disdain they have for Primaris already.

I see little connection between Primaris being Mary Sues beyond the idea that Mary Sues are bad and things should try not and be them in the same manner Primaris/Guilliman are also a Deus ex machina. Words have meanings, and yes, sometimes those meanings evolve. However, I don't think watering down Mary Sue to the point of meaning, "Thing I don't like that is good at stuff." gives it much merit.

What Saturmorn Carvilli says.

Plus while having missing organs functioning again, they suffer from the same flaws as their brethren. See Death Company Intercessors.

Lance845 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I agree, Primaris are the Mary Sue of the 41st millenium, totally unrealistic to the setting. But we have to live with that, we have to play the game as the designers want us too or find another game.

Find another game that isnt a lopsided piece of gak. The more money you give gw the more they think this is what you want. Stop paying them for the privilege of a bad product.

Bingo!

It is why myself and other players on here have posts about how we have gone back to 5th edition and put in some fixes to correct the flaws in that edition.

We still love 40K the universe, lore and our minis we just don't like what GW is doing with it now. some time in the future they will likely do a complete redesign of the system again and all the people who started with/love the 8th/9th+ version of the game will be mad about it.

It is also true that there are a host of other games out there that are flat out better written than 40K or AOS

Warlords Bolt action seems to have a large/growing following, with good reviews for their antares game as well. WHFB players have gravitated to MANTICs kings of war. for direct comparison to the mechanics of 8th/9th edition, DUST 1947 (rules written by former GW/40K veteran Andy Chambers no less) is a far better system. infinity still is one of the best skirmish systems out there, battletech is still going strong being another game that got it's start in the late 1980s. the MKIII core rules for warmahordes are actually quite good, the hate towards the behavior of PP however has clouded that fact.

Prior to all the covid lock downs flames of war, star wars legion and X-wing still had strong community support. those are just the bigger titles not counting some of the more esoteric games out there people enjoy.

As gamers even in the wargaming niche hobby the amount of choices we have are massive which is why building regular gaming communities is so vital to our hobby and can easily be drowned out by the one giant elephant in the room that is GW.

Blastaar wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally wielding revolvers in setting where lascannons are a common thing...makes me feel like I am in a bad episode of Enterprise...

Wouldn't it be a lot cooler if he had laser pistols?

All episodes of Enterprise are bad.

I dunno, I like the BLAM BLAM BLAM over the PEW PEW PEW. I'm thinking triple wielding S+W 500s.

I happen to like Enterprise.

Oh me too. Just thinking about one western episode where they came across some humans that were abducted during the 1850s or something and they faught against the enterprise crew with revolvers.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
.A Mary Sue doesn't have to be a flawless character, alter ego of the author. Trekkies Tale is 50 years old...
GW wants their customers to be identified by the human race of their universe, and thats a form of Mary Sue, clearly. They couldn't use Firstborn because they were losing, so they created a character that is better in every role, with no real flaws, that could rescue Firstborn marines and be real heros in a context where heros shouldn't exist, the Primaris. It's a marketing practice for sure, but IMO it has a lot of features of a modenized Mary Sue.

Sure, and a strawman doesn't have to be an artificial construct to more easily support ones' argument. You know what as much as either of those terms are used on Dakka, using a term with only a slight connection to what it means sounds about right.

A Mary/Marty/Gary/etc. Sue is far more than a character with no flaws. That's a flawless character, period. A Mary Sue is also a character that is generally beloved my all without really earning it. Often to include grudgingly respect even from their enemies. Which sounds about as far from Primaris in and out of the setting.

What

what

WHAT

WHAAAAAAAT

Just off the top of the ol' noggin:

-The dark angels begrudgingly allowing the Primaris to be the first inductees into their super-secret inner circle after seeing how great they are

-The old space wolf admiringly thinking about Primaris as "Guilliman managing to forge even harder steel from the astartes" while having his little chat with the fenrisian shield-maiden about how there's still no girls allowed in the emperor's pillow fort

-The two times in the Drukhari codex that Primaris are mentioned, the first time is Urien Rakarth offering a massive bounty because he just MUST have one of the new fancy primaris space marines as a test subject, and the second time is a story where they have a record crowd at the biggest wych cult arena because they've captured a squad of intercessors, which in the imagination of the author are more exciting than such old hat as gigantic tyranid monstrosities

-The new Fabius Bile novel has a section in which a chaos space marine comes up to Fabius asking him why he isn't worried because "They're better than us"

-The crusade section from the new rulebook has yet more Chaos Marine fanboying over primaris, where a Dark Mechanicum Magos marvels about how much better the new Bolt Rifles are than the bolters used during the Heresy, and says how great a trade 7 Iron Warriors CSM were for an unspecified number of bolt rifles.

-Even in the middle of Codex: Tyranids the final fluff entry in their timeline to bring them up to date talks about how the tyranids are defeated by the addition of Primaris Space Marines "Powerful genhanced space marine warriors!" to set up the tyranids with a defeat in time for their psychic awakening entry, again a defeat, again highlighting how great primaris are.

if you really have read recent fluff and haven't seen the continuous, pan-faction, pan-source, unending spanking about how great and awesome Primaris Space Marines are, I just have absolutely no idea what you are reading.

the_scotsman wrote:
if you really have read recent fluff and haven't seen the continuous, pan-faction, pan-source, unending spanking about how great and awesome Primaris Space Marines are, I just have absolutely no idea what you are reading.

Just reads like whatever the current edition's latest Marine releases usually get.

I can understand "its new and I hate it". I can understand the idea the Imperium can just dip in the old gene vats and make "Marines+1" is lame.

But its like saying the Iphone 11 is a Mary Sue in a world of old model Iphones.

I think you could make a better argument Guilliman is a Mary Sue - but he and the other Primarchs sort of existed in the fluff as super-duper-superior to everyone and everything with mega charisma, so it sort of gets a pass.

the_scotsman wrote:

-The dark angels begrudgingly allowing the Primaris to be the first inductees into their super-secret inner circle after seeing how great they are

-The old space wolf admiringly thinking about Primaris as "Guilliman managing to forge even harder steel from the astartes" while having his little chat with the fenrisian shield-maiden about how there's still no girls allowed in the emperor's pillow fort

-The two times in the Drukhari codex that Primaris are mentioned, the first time is Urien Rakarth offering a massive bounty because he just MUST have one of the new fancy primaris space marines as a test subject, and the second time is a story where they have a record crowd at the biggest wych cult arena because they've captured a squad of intercessors, which in the imagination of the author are more exciting than such old hat as gigantic tyranid monstrosities

-The new Fabius Bile novel has a section in which a chaos space marine comes up to Fabius asking him why he isn't worried because "They're better than us"

-The crusade section from the new rulebook has yet more Chaos Marine fanboying over primaris, where a Dark Mechanicum Magos marvels about how much better the new Bolt Rifles are than the bolters used during the Heresy, and says how great a trade 7 Iron Warriors CSM were for an unspecified number of bolt rifles.

-Even in the middle of Codex: Tyranids the final fluff entry in their timeline to bring them up to date talks about how the tyranids are defeated by the addition of Primaris Space Marines "Powerful genhanced space marine warriors!" to set up the tyranids with a defeat in time for their psychic awakening entry, again a defeat, again highlighting how great primaris are.

if you really have read recent fluff and haven't seen the continuous, pan-faction, pan-source, unending spanking about how great and awesome Primaris Space Marines are, I just have absolutely no idea what you are reading.

Isn't it possible for characters to express their feelings without Primaris actually being a Mary Sue?

Also, cherry picking?

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
if you really have read recent fluff and haven't seen the continuous, pan-faction, pan-source, unending spanking about how great and awesome Primaris Space Marines are, I just have absolutely no idea what you are reading.

Just reads like whatever the current edition's latest Marine releases usually get.

No. For one thing, the oldest fluff of 40k had space marines much MUCH less flawless than current fluff, but much more often in existing fluff the most powerful units of various factions would be defined as equals, or better than, astartes.

There's no in-universe reason why the various factions of non-imperials should give a gak about, let alone notice, some new permutation of Astartes that are slightly taller and have slightly boltier boltguns. The new crusade started up by Guilliman, the return of a primarch in general, sure, absolutely. What makes the accusation of being a mary sue apt for primaris in general is absolutely that it's the arrival of PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES (and the fact that they're better than those regular ol' space marines!) that gets continually mentioned and obsessed over in-universe by everyone.

What makes Mary Sue a Mary Sue in the original fanfiction is that she arrives, and immediately all the established main characters of the series noticed and gave a gak and saw her as significant despite having no real reason to do so.

Every single codex since 8th edition started has not talked about the arrival of the ynnari, or the return of the sisters of silence, or the return of the Custodes, or the active participation in battle of not one but two daemon primarchs. But in every one, you have each faction in turn calling for help from the Primaris, admiring the Primaris, obsessing over the primaris, shaking their fist at the primaris skeletor-style, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

-The dark angels begrudgingly allowing the Primaris to be the first inductees into their super-secret inner circle after seeing how great they are

-The old space wolf admiringly thinking about Primaris as "Guilliman managing to forge even harder steel from the astartes" while having his little chat with the fenrisian shield-maiden about how there's still no girls allowed in the emperor's pillow fort

-The two times in the Drukhari codex that Primaris are mentioned, the first time is Urien Rakarth offering a massive bounty because he just MUST have one of the new fancy primaris space marines as a test subject, and the second time is a story where they have a record crowd at the biggest wych cult arena because they've captured a squad of intercessors, which in the imagination of the author are more exciting than such old hat as gigantic tyranid monstrosities

-The new Fabius Bile novel has a section in which a chaos space marine comes up to Fabius asking him why he isn't worried because "They're better than us"

-The crusade section from the new rulebook has yet more Chaos Marine fanboying over primaris, where a Dark Mechanicum Magos marvels about how much better the new Bolt Rifles are than the bolters used during the Heresy, and says how great a trade 7 Iron Warriors CSM were for an unspecified number of bolt rifles.

-Even in the middle of Codex: Tyranids the final fluff entry in their timeline to bring them up to date talks about how the tyranids are defeated by the addition of Primaris Space Marines "Powerful genhanced space marine warriors!" to set up the tyranids with a defeat in time for their psychic awakening entry, again a defeat, again highlighting how great primaris are.

if you really have read recent fluff and haven't seen the continuous, pan-faction, pan-source, unending spanking about how great and awesome Primaris Space Marines are, I just have absolutely no idea what you are reading.

Isn't it possible for characters to express their feelings without Primaris actually being a Mary Sue?

Also, cherry picking?

I do love that one of the two examples you can come up with for how wrong I am is essentially "even with the might of the primaris reinforcements the victory was hard fought!"

And the other begins with a reminder "in the wake of their defeat at Baal " :^)