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I was just looking at the Codex Preview again and wondered about the Heavy Intercessor Captain vs Gravis Captain?

The Heavy Intercessor Captain is 7PL and Unknown Points estimated 140ish points.

The Gravis Captain was/is 6PL and about 111 points.

They both appear to have a Power Sword or Master Crafted Power Sword.

The one has a Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle (one would assume a Heavy Bolt Pistol 18" yadda yadda) and a regular? power sword. The Gravis Captain has a Boltstorm (Fist + 12 " pistol 3 yadda yadda to avoid too much rule data) and a Master Crafted Power Sword.

The Bladeguard captain is about 5PL and 105 Points, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Relic Shield (Storm Shield with Captain/Chaplain pre existing 4++ based bonus to vs. Mortal Wounds)

Am I alone thinking both of those captains even for the same price are better than this Heavy Intercessor Captain based on what we've seen so far, let alone for 30 or so points more?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets try an alternate/second question.

How many of you would take the new Heavy Intercessor Captain over the "old" Gravis Captain based on what we know so far?

If they were the same price?

If the Heavy Intercessor Captain costs about 30 points more?

I dont think there's much point talking about this until we see the sheet.

Gravis captain is a bit crap, you dont really see it. If this new captain is similar or worse for the cost then we won't see it either. Thats it really.

 Stux wrote:
I dont think there's much point talking about this until we see the sheet.

Gravis captain is a bit crap, you dont really see it. If this new captain is similar or worse for the cost then we won't see it either. Thats it really.

I don't think the Gravis Captain is crap. The named Specials are just so much better for twice the price. He's not as good, but I don't think he's crap.

I mean maybe all the captains (or all the Gravis) are going up in price and this 7PL (140ish point?)Heavy Intercessor Captain is teasing the price increase?

Or is this just GW making a new captain for the purpose of making a new captain without looking at what they had. Rifle + Sword doesn't feel as handy as Fist + Sword

And if you want a shooting Captain, the Phobos Captain with an Assault 1 Super Sniper Rifle sounds like a better deal.

You're paying a lot for two melee weapons when one would be fine. Between normal Captains who are much better at being a beatstick due to all the options available (eg Jump Packs, Hammers and shields) or Primaris Captains who can contribute something at range with a MC stalker bolt rifle, they just don't really have a niche. They're slow and expensive.

Crap in a vacuum? Maybe not. They just don't really have a niche in practice, which is why I use the word.

Maybe there is some powerful relic heavy master crafted bolt rifle. The castellan was more or less made by the relic cawl gun. So maybe it is that.

My problem with this is that why on Earth they're separate datasheets? Even if they didn't want to allow any extra weapon options, why not make it one gravis captain datasheet with sword and boltstorm gauntlet with an option to swap the gauntlet for the rifle and pistol?

Perhaps they have some different special rules attached, otherwise this really doesn't make much sense.

Personally I'd love to see a gravis captain datasheet with some real customisation. Give them a gravgun and megafist option and people can use Tor Garadon model to represent that.

For a sitting back and buffing role, he seems decent. Assuming his points are not vastly out of wack. But with all the changes, I’m not sure how relevant that job is going to be. Captains pay a lot for their quite decent close combat statline. When you could leverage their auras, it was worth it to let that slide, as you were acting as a significant force multiplier. With their buff just on core units (and the rumor of one per detachment), I suspect that it will not be worth the investment for an aura alone. TO get his points back, he’s going to have to mix it up a little and crump some heads, for which the other options are better suited.

WL traits, chapter tactics, and relics will also have a massive impact on his viability.

At this point I have no interest in picking one up personally. Not a bad looking model, but a lateral shift from the other host of options out there. The way they price SM HQ models, I’m saving my budget for the other new shinies.

Karol wrote:
Maybe there is some powerful relic heavy master crafted bolt rifle. The castellan was more or less made by the relic cawl gun. So maybe it is that.

I hope so, but I doubt it. There's a potentially better shooting option, there's a better beat stick option, even staying Primaris. I'll be picking one up just to paint and stick in the case, but I just don't see paying more for worse, or even paying the same. I was starting to wonder if I was underestimaing Captain Shooting, but it doesn't sound like it.

comparing him to thje gravis captain from dark Imperium, the DI gravis Captain has a MC power sword, a boltstorm "pistol" and a power fist. the over all look is honestly pretty cool. it's clearly designed to evoke the armernments of Gulliman. on the table top though it's umm... not really practical, you're weaponry is all short ranged, and you've got two power weapons. it's a nice looking model but there's no way to efficantly points it.

the new Gravis Captain however looks to carry a heavy bolt rifle, a power sword aaaand no sign of a pistol.

he's proably going to be more efficant then the standard gravis captain.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
My problem with this is that why on Earth they're separate datasheets?

do we know for sure they are?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My problem with this is that why on Earth they're separate datasheets?

do we know for sure they are?

I have a vague recollection that there was a blurry pic of the index of the new codex and they were separate there. That's the same pic from which we know that veteran intercessors are a separate datasheet.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My problem with this is that why on Earth they're separate datasheets?

do we know for sure they are?

I have a vague recollection that there was a blurry pic of the index of the new codex and they were separate there. That's the same pic from which we know that veteran intercessors are a separate datasheet.

I agree that's down right silly if it is, so let's hope your recollection is wrong. this books going to be big eneugh without GW giving us two seperate datasheets for a captain in gravis armor.

BrianDavion wrote:
comparing him to thje gravis captain from dark Imperium, the DI gravis Captain has a MC power sword, a boltstorm "pistol" and a power fist. the over all look is honestly pretty cool. it's clearly designed to evoke the armernments of Gulliman. on the table top though it's umm... not really practical, you're weaponry is all short ranged, and you've got two power weapons. it's a nice looking model but there's no way to efficantly points it.

I like the two power weapons. He gets the more accurate sword if he doesn't need to x2S, and the gauntlet if he does. Maybe the Heavy Intercessor Captain can have a Thunderhammer but so far...

the new Gravis Captain however looks to carry a heavy bolt rifle, a power sword aaaand no sign of a pistol.

he's proably going to be more efficant then the standard gravis captain.

I would imagine he's still got a pistol. Everybody has a pistol now.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
comparing him to thje gravis captain from dark Imperium, the DI gravis Captain has a MC power sword, a boltstorm "pistol" and a power fist. the over all look is honestly pretty cool. it's clearly designed to evoke the armernments of Gulliman. on the table top though it's umm... not really practical, you're weaponry is all short ranged, and you've got two power weapons. it's a nice looking model but there's no way to efficantly points it.

I like the two power weapons. He gets the more accurate sword if he doesn't need to x2S, and the gauntlet if he does. Maybe the Heavy Intercessor Captain can have a Thunderhammer but so far...

In theory yeah, but in practice if you math it the niche for switching weapons is really small.

Generally I would there to be a rule that makes it more worthwhile to take two melee weapons. Perhaps something like:

"If a model is equipped with 2 or more melee weapons, and they have not made a shooting attack this turn, then they may make one extra attack in the fight phase. If they do, they must make their attacks with at least 2 different weapons."

Basically you can give up your attack before charging (as you wouldnt have a pistol in hand anyway) to get a dual wielding bonus attack.

For the Gravis Captain specifically, the gauntlet could have a rule that let you shoot it and still get the bonus attack, as it is wrist mounted.

With captains not getting their own re-rolls, the math might shift a bit on the fist vs. the sword, depending on your target.

 Crimson wrote:
My problem with this is that why on Earth they're separate datasheets? Even if they didn't want to allow any extra weapon options, why not make it one gravis captain datasheet with sword and boltstorm gauntlet with an option to swap the gauntlet for the rifle and pistol?

Perhaps they have some different special rules attached, otherwise this really doesn't make much sense.

Personally I'd love to see a gravis captain datasheet with some real customisation. Give them a gravgun and megafist option and people can use Tor Garadon model to represent that.

Because carrying an Aggressor fist and Heavy Bolt Rifle is too broken.

 Crimson wrote:
My problem with this is that why on Earth they're separate datasheets? Even if they didn't want to allow any extra weapon options, why not make it one gravis captain datasheet with sword and boltstorm gauntlet with an option to swap the gauntlet for the rifle and pistol?

Perhaps they have some different special rules attached, otherwise this really doesn't make much sense.

Personally I'd love to see a gravis captain datasheet with some real customisation. Give them a gravgun and megafist option and people can use Tor Garadon model to represent that.

GW's rules writing is increasingly SKU aligned, they're making specific rules for specific kits, not for units.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My problem with this is that why on Earth they're separate datasheets? Even if they didn't want to allow any extra weapon options, why not make it one gravis captain datasheet with sword and boltstorm gauntlet with an option to swap the gauntlet for the rifle and pistol?

Perhaps they have some different special rules attached, otherwise this really doesn't make much sense.

Personally I'd love to see a gravis captain datasheet with some real customisation. Give them a gravgun and megafist option and people can use Tor Garadon model to represent that.

GW's rules writing is increasingly SKU aligned, they're making specific rules for specific kits, not for units.

That's somewhat true, but they've largely congealed datasheets into armor types. Consider the Primaris LTs, for example. All the existing weapon options (available at the time) are in the one entry (except phobos armor LTs, which are a different entry).
I would not be surprised if Gravis Captains go the same way.

Same as the Primaris Captain, really its basically 1 MC auto bolt rifle, or 1 MC stalker bolt rifle (both? with or without power sword) OR 1 power fist and plasma pistol.

I'd expect the same for Gravis captain.
By default its gets gauntlet and MC power sword OR it can get heavy bolt rifle.
Adding one line for wargear options makes more sense than an entirely separate datasheet.

In this case, anyway. Obviously the Primaris Chaplain on Outrider Bike is going to be an entirely separate datasheet, because it changes the profile.

BrianDavion wrote:
do we know for sure they are?

Voss wrote:
I would not be surprised if Gravis Captains go the same way.

Not in this version of the book.

The unit entry is "Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle". As in, that's the unit's name.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
do we know for sure they are?

Voss wrote:
I would not be surprised if Gravis Captains go the same way.

Not in this version of the book.

The unit entry is "Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle". As in, that's the unit's name.

Which I'm hoping means they gave him some bespoke bells and whistles to offset his increased PL and theoretically increased points cost.

Breton wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
do we know for sure they are?

Voss wrote:
I would not be surprised if Gravis Captains go the same way.

Not in this version of the book.

The unit entry is "Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle". As in, that's the unit's name.

Which I'm hoping means they gave him some bespoke bells and whistles to offset his increased PL and theoretically increased points cost.

I’d rather they just left him with the same bells and whistles as his peers and adjust his points to be inline.

I’m getting really tired of everyone having a special bespoke rifle because the guy who modeled it gave it an extra scope or a dangly charm. We don’t need 50 billion captain datasheets, we don’t need 97 bolters.

You want the captain to have a better rifle then the troops? Give him a relic.

I know GW does this to keep things “simple” and “accessible” You buy the kit, you build the one option, you have the stats on one page. But the bloat is getting crazy. Even little Timmy can look up gear options on a table. We don’t need everything spoon fed to us. We don’t need everything with it’s own entry. Combine, consolidate, and give us our options back.

This pre-coffee rant brought to you by codex bloat and NMNR. Sorry about that.

100% agreed. The decision to make the rifle Captain into a separate datasheet absolutely baffles me.

 Nevelon wrote:


I’d rather they just left him with the same bells and whistles as his peers and adjust his points to be inline.

Same, but that ship already sailed and sank.

I’m getting really tired of everyone having a special bespoke rifle because the guy who modeled it gave it an extra scope or a dangly charm. We don’t need 50 billion captain datasheets, we don’t need 97 bolters.

You want the captain to have a better rifle then the troops? Give him a relic.

They basically did, he's got a Master Crafted

 Super Ready wrote:
100% agreed. The decision to make the rifle Captain into a separate datasheet absolutely baffles me.

Eh. It's not that baffling, considering that nonsense people have pulled when it comes to the whole 'swap weapon A for weapon B, swap weapon C for weapon from list' thing.

Remember the circular logic people made to justify GW being awful at rules writing when they would do the whole 'swapping a boltgun for a plasma gun, then a close combat weapon for a boltgun' in Deathwatch?
Deathwatch Veterans came with a Boltgun and Close Combat Weapon
They could take items from Melee, Ranged, and/or Special Weapons lists.
People would argue the intention allowed for you to swap the Boltgun for a Special or Heavy Weapon, then exchange the Close Combat Weapon to get a Boltgun back.

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:


I’d rather they just left him with the same bells and whistles as his peers and adjust his points to be inline.

Same, but that ship already sailed and sank.

I’m getting really tired of everyone having a special bespoke rifle because the guy who modeled it gave it an extra scope or a dangly charm. We don’t need 50 billion captain datasheets, we don’t need 97 bolters.

You want the captain to have a better rifle then the troops? Give him a relic.

They basically did, he's got a Master Crafted

Just because the ship has sailed does not mean I need to be happy about it. I’d like to see them chance course. And honestly, I’d prefer him to be overpriced with no extra perks, have nobody buy/play him, GW to look at why, and adjust his points. Once they start adding things, they almost never take them away. Things tend to escalate as everything gets buffed to the level of the overpowered stuff. Which is why we are in the state of the game we are in.

I’d rather captains just had the option to take stock rifles, with a rule “May apply the 'master crafted relic' rule to one piece of his wargear if he is not taking another relic” and be able to shave a dozen bespoke guns off the bloated armory tables.

i think one part of the logic is that they can play with the stats of the captains bolt gun without having that playing affect anyone else's balance. So, if they decide to add +1 str or take a point of AP off the captain, it wont affect Other Marine Unit with the same gun (and visa-versa, a buff or nerf to Other Marine Unit wont unwantedly screw with the captain).

does it cause bolt weapon bloat? yhea, sure, but if it means they can balance the better or with a higher degree of precision, its sorta makes sense (I'll avoid weather they are actaully any good at balencing for the sake of avoiding flame wars)

 Kanluwen wrote:
Eh. It's not that baffling, considering that nonsense people have pulled when it comes to the whole 'swap weapon A for weapon B, swap weapon C for weapon from list' thing.
Remember the circular logic people made to justify GW being awful at rules writing when they would do the whole 'swapping a boltgun for a plasma gun, then a close combat weapon for a boltgun' in Deathwatch?
Deathwatch Veterans came with a Boltgun and Close Combat Weapon
They could take items from Melee, Ranged, and/or Special Weapons lists.
People would argue the intention allowed for you to swap the Boltgun for a Special or Heavy Weapon, then exchange the Close Combat Weapon to get a Boltgun back.

I remember the logic difficulties - what I never understood was why that was ever an issue in the first place. So your character gets to have a special issue Deathwatch boltgun and a plasma gun. So what? That's not so terribly far removed from a combi-weapon - the biggest difference being that now, you could fire both, but memory tells me this wasn't the case at the time.
In any case, blaming the weapon-swapping for this is laying the blame at the wrong feet. The issue lies with GW making the weapon lists so damned convoluted in the first place. The older style lists separating melee, pistols and so on didn't allow for a melee weapon to be swapped for a boltgun, and they worked just fine.

It had nothing to do with the lists being "convoluted". It had everything to do with RAI v RAW.

It always has to do with RAI v RAW. It wasn't any kind of "logic difficulties" either--it was just the usual nonsense of the RAW crowd trying to pretend like these things would realistically come up in lists outside of people being smarmy gits.

The cycle of swapping, IIRC, was:
Boltgun to Special or Heavy weapon, CCW to Boltgun, then Boltgun to another Ranged or Special Weapon.
Because remember the Boltgun was a 'free' upgrade.

For what it's worth?
I'd like to see the profiles blended more. Primaris Lieutenants have all their profiles in their respective entries. Phobos Lieutenant is a mess though, and makes me wonder how the initial Phobos concept was pitched. The 'Reiver' Lieutenant has Smoke Grenades(which are on Infiltrators), CCW, Heavy Bolt Pistol while the basic profile has the Incursor Bolt Carbine, Incursor fighting blades, and Grav-Chutes(which only Reivers get).

Ah, I see. Again though GW are still ultimately to blame. That would be very easily fixed with the wording "Model-blah-blah-face can swap one boltgun for a weapon from the whatever list."

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'd like to see the profiles blended more. Primaris Lieutenants have all their profiles in their respective entries. Phobos Lieutenant is a mess though, and makes me wonder how the initial Phobos concept was pitched. The 'Reiver' Lieutenant has Smoke Grenades(which are on Infiltrators), CCW, Heavy Bolt Pistol while the basic profile has the Incursor Bolt Carbine, Incursor fighting blades, and Grav-Chutes(which only Reivers get).

I wouldn't object to Armor based Profiles.

Gravis X (Captain, Libby, Chaplain, Lieutenant etc)
Tacticus X
Phobos X

As a followup, how the hell do we have 16 different Lieutenants but not a single one in Gravis? and four different models of Tacticus Chaplains, but no Gravis? Seriously they even made fun of themselves for the Captain/Lieutenant parade, but they didn't think to flesh out the Gravis line? Just realized it.

Breton wrote:

As a followup, how the hell do we have 16 different Lieutenants but not a single one in Gravis? and four different models of Tacticus Chaplains, but no Gravis? Seriously they even made fun of themselves for the Captain/Lieutenant parade, but they didn't think to flesh out the Gravis line? Just realized it.

The lieutenant think is hella stupid because, yes, they have made a ton of different models, but a lot of them have identical loadouts so there is still a really limited amount of options. Like an intercessor sergeant has more options. I'm really glad about the new shield, sword and volkite pistol combo though.