Heavy Intercessor Captain vs Gravis Captain?

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**BrianDavion**

Breton wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

I'd like to see the profiles blended more. Primaris Lieutenants have all their profiles in their respective entries. Phobos Lieutenant is a mess though, and makes me wonder how the initial Phobos concept was pitched. The 'Reiver' Lieutenant has Smoke Grenades(which are on Infiltrators), CCW, Heavy Bolt Pistol while the basic profile has the Incursor Bolt Carbine, Incursor fighting blades, and Grav-Chutes(which only Reivers get).

I wouldn't object to Armor based Profiles.

Gravis X (Captain, Libby, Chaplain, Lieutenant etc)
Tacticus X
Phobos X

As a followup, how the hell do we have 16 different Lieutenants but not a single one in Gravis? and four different models of Tacticus Chaplains, but no Gravis? Seriously they even made fun of themselves for the Captain/Lieutenant parade, but they didn't think to flesh out the Gravis line? Just realized it.

I only count 2 chaplain models, and one is LE model clearly intended to invoke old school chaplain models.

**Super Ready**

Y'know, I really think the Lieutenant thing was a way of getting sculptors' teeth cut, either on GW processes in general (for new starters) or for familiarity with the new Primaris armour (for existing staff). I don't see any other reason for doing so damned many of them with exactly the same loadout.

BrianDavion wrote:
I only count 2 chaplain models, and one is LE model clearly intended to invoke old school chaplain models.

I suspect we'll see a couple more over time, but hopefully not before other factions have had a catch-up. Personally I find it telling that there is a Phobos Librarian, but that might be just a side-effect of someone deciding to put one in the Shadowspear box and not part of an overall plan to get all characters into all armour types.

**Kanluwen**

Super Ready wrote:
Y'know, I really think the Lieutenant thing was a way of getting sculptors' teeth cut, either on GW processes in general (for new starters) or for familiarity with the new Primaris armour (for existing staff). I don't see any other reason for doing so damned many of them with exactly the same loadout.

There's not really that many "with exactly the same loadout".
Heavy Bolt Pistol and Power Sword is the most numerous, with four. One is faction specific(BA), one is available via blister(and really is more UM than anything else!), and the third was Dark Imperium.

BrianDavion wrote:
I only count 2 chaplain models, and one is LE model clearly intended to invoke old school chaplain models.

I suspect we'll see a couple more over time, but hopefully not before other factions have had a catch-up. Personally I find it telling that there is a Phobos Librarian, but that might be just a side-effect of someone deciding to put one in the Shadowspear box and not part of an overall plan to get all characters into all armour types.

It's because Librarians are more adaptive than Chaplains when it comes to the concept of working with the Scout forces. I wouldn't be shocked if the Phobos Librarian was concepted as a Raven Guard character or something, just turned generic.

**Nevelon**

Librarians fit a lot better in with the stealth recon look the phobos are working with. Makes sense to gear them in that armor as the supplemental HQ after the Cpt./Lt.

Chaplains be like “INFILTRATE WITH STEALTH AND ZEAL MY BROTHERS!” While chanting a litany to boost their stealth at the top of his lungs.

Not that I let that slow me down converting one...

Spoiler:

**Super Ready**

I know it's not the usual Chaplain thing - but it is very possible to be inspiring without being at 150% volume.

Still - I do see the point.
...I DON'T believe that such concerns would be enough to stop GW putting out a Phobos Chaplain model somewhere down the line, though...

**Stux**

Yeah, photos aren't just about stealth too. They're about shock and awe. Look at Reivers.

**Nevelon**

Super Ready wrote:I know it's not the usual Chaplain thing - but it is very possible to be inspiring without being at 150% volume. Still - I do see the point.
...I DON'T believe that such concerns would be enough to stop GW putting out a Phobos Chaplain model somewhere down the line, though...

Stux wrote:Yeah, photos aren't just about stealth too. They're about shock and awe. Look at Reivers.

Heh, I know. It just makes me chuckle.

Eventually I expect GW will have the full matrix of Primaris HQs: regular/gravis/phobos/bike.

Captain is missing bike
Lt. is missing bike and gravis
Librarian is missing bike and gravis
Chaplain is missing gravis and phobos (we’ve seen the bike, just no idea when it will release)
Techmarines have always done their own thing, and we’ve seen one leaked a while back. No idea what options they will get eventually.

**H.B.M.C.**

As mentioned in this thread, GW are making Codex entries based on SKUs, not anything logical or in-universe. "Gravis Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rilfe" exists as a unit entry because it exists as a product.

Sure, it'd be better if there was simply "Primaris Captain" and "Gravis Captain" and "Phobos Captain" as Codex entries, each with their own list of weapon/equipment options, but such a thing could encourage the dreaded third parties, and we can't have that. Thus we get unit entries that are so specific as to mention the armour and weapon in the damned name.

It's so fething asinine...

Kanluwen wrote:
Eh. It's not that baffling, considering that nonsense people have pulled when it comes to the whole 'swap weapon A for weapon B, swap weapon C for weapon from list' thing.

Ah. Back to blaming the players again. How unsurprising. Everything would be perfect if not for the "nonsense people... pulled". Un-fething-believable...

**Super Ready**

Oh gods... I just had a horrible thought. Imagine separate datasheets for all of these (spoilered for ridiculousness, and this is just the bikes):

Spoiler:

**Nevelon**

Super Ready wrote:
Oh gods... I just had a horrible thought. Imagine separate datasheets for all of these (spoilered for ridiculousness, and this is just the bikes):

Spoiler:

Primaris Captain on Bike
Primaris Phobos Captain on Bike
Primaris Gravis Captain on Bike
Primaris Captain on Bike with master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
Primaris Phobos Captain on Bike with master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
Primaris Gravis Captain on Bike with master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
Primaris Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Phobos Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Gravis Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Lieutenant on Bike
Primaris Phobos Lieutenant on Bike
Primaris Gravis Lieutenant on Bike
Primaris Apothecary on Bike
Primaris Phobos Apothecary on Bike
Primaris Gravis Apothecary on Bike
Primaris Techmarine on Bike
Primaris Phobos Techmarine on Bike
Primaris Gravis Techmarine on Bike
Primaris Librarian on Bike
Primaris Phobos Librarian on Bike
Primaris Gravis Librarian on Bike

It might be even worse than that if they do separate datasheets for all the wargear options. Eventually page count WILL force them to go back to charts and tables.

**H.B.M.C.**

"Due to the increase in data-sheets within the 10th Edition Space Marine Codex, we have decided that, for the sake of newer players entering the HHHobby, that it is time to retire some of the older Space Marine options. This means that, at long last, the First Born Marines that have graced the battlefiends of 40k since the late 80's must leave us, entering the hallowed halls of 40K Legends."

But in all seriousness, I wouldn't think Gravis armour could ride a bike.

**Nevelon**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Due to the increase in data-sheets within the 10th Edition Space Marine Codex, we have decided that, for the sake of newer players entering the HHHobby, that it is time to retire some of the older Space Marine options. This means that, at long last, the First Born Marines that have graced the battlefiends of 40k since the late 80's must leave us, entering the hallowed halls of 40K Legends."

The sacrifices we make for having 234 different captain datasheets. /eyeroll

**Kanluwen**

Super Ready wrote:
Oh gods... I just had a horrible thought. Imagine separate datasheets for all of these (spoilered for ridiculousness, and this is just the bikes):

Spoiler:

Primaris Captain on Bike
Primaris Phobos Captain on Bike
Primaris Gravis Captain on Bike
Primaris Captain on Bike with master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
Primaris Phobos Captain on Bike with master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
Primaris Gravis Captain on Bike with master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
Primaris Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Phobos Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Gravis Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Lieutenant on Bike
Primaris Phobos Lieutenant on Bike
Primaris Gravis Lieutenant on Bike
Primaris Apothecary on Bike
Primaris Phobos Apothecary on Bike
Primaris Gravis Apothecary on Bike
Primaris Techmarine on Bike
Primaris Phobos Techmarine on Bike
Primaris Gravis Techmarine on Bike
Primaris Librarian on Bike
Primaris Phobos Librarian on Bike
Primaris Gravis Librarian on Bike

Gravis takes up two slots in transports. They won't get a bike.
Phobos is intended to be an infiltration/stealth setup. It might get a bike...but it more likely will get a jump pack ala Shrike.

There's also no sign of every character type getting every armor type. The Apothecary and Techmarine will likely not get Phobos(Junior Apothecaries in Phobos gear are actually in the Infiltrator kit fyi), but might get bikes or Gravis.
We might see some of these characters instead getting some of the more outlandish armor types. Omnis immediately jumps(no pun intended!) to mind.

**Super Ready**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
But in all seriousness, I wouldn't think Gravis armour could ride a bike.

Absolutely, they can't ride Outrider bikes.
...which is why we now have Outflanker bikes! Chunkier than ever! Oh, and an extra Wound on top of Outriders, along with an FA-slot squad option to boot.
What's that, you just bought a whole bunch of Outriders and they're no longer the tastiest option?

**H.B.M.C.**

Super Ready wrote:
...which is why we now have Outflanker bikes! Chunkier than ever! Oh, and an extra Wound on top of Outriders, along with an FA-slot squad option to boot.
What's that, you just bought a whole bunch of Outriders and they're no longer the tastiest option?

No, no, no. We've got this all wrong.

Gravis is a kind of exo-suit for regular Mark X "Whatever" Pattern Power Armour. Gravis won't ride a bike, the Marine will become the bike. The bike will be an exosuit itself!

**Eonfuzz**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Super Ready wrote:
...which is why we now have Outflanker bikes! Chunkier than ever! Oh, and an extra Wound on top of Outriders, along with an FA-slot squad option to boot.
What's that, you just bought a whole bunch of Outriders and they're no longer the tastiest option?
No, no, no. We've got this all wrong.

Gravis is a kind of exo-suit for regular Mark X "Whatever" Pattern Power Armour. Gravis won't ride a bike, the Marine will become the bike. The bike will be an exosuit itself!

Why stop there? I'm looking forward to my Primaris Terminator Outrider Command Squad

**BrianDavion**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Super Ready wrote:
...which is why we now have Outflanker bikes! Chunkier than ever! Oh, and an extra Wound on top of Outriders, along with an FA-slot squad option to boot.
What's that, you just bought a whole bunch of Outriders and they're no longer the tastiest option?
No, no, no. We've got this all wrong.

Gravis is a kind of exo-suit for regular Mark X "Whatever" Pattern Power Armour. Gravis won't ride a bike, the Marine will become the bike. The bike will be an exosuit itself!

meh it's been done

**H.B.M.C.**

BrianDavion wrote:
meh it's been done

That's a shame. GW will have to come up with their own ideas rather than pilfering from somewhere else (which they've never done ever - all their ideas are original, they said so in court!).

**Eonfuzz**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
meh it's been done
That's a shame. GW will have to come up with their own ideas rather than pilfering from somewhere else (which they've never done ever - all their ideas are original, they said so in court!).

Ah yes, the Space Elfs, Star Troopers and Star Trooper Bugz, the Terminators and space fish with gundam?

I think in hindsight, Tau are fairly original. Right?

**Breton**

Kanluwen wrote:

It's because Librarians are more adaptive than Chaplains when it comes to the concept of working with the Scout forces. I wouldn't be shocked if the Phobos Librarian was concepted as a Raven Guard character or something, just turned generic.

A lot of named Chaplains especially Masters of Sanctity have fluff about basically being the 10th Company Chaplain when <Chapter> <Chapter Master> was just starting in the scout company. Each company, including the 10th company has its own Chaplain, not every company has its own Libby.

**H.B.M.C.**

Companies don't have Librarians. They're not part of the 10-company structure.

They come from the Librarius, and are assigned to task forces/crusades/etc. as needed. Same applies to Tech-Marines and their assets.

**Voss**

Breton wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

It's because Librarians are more adaptive than Chaplains when it comes to the concept of working with the Scout forces. I wouldn't be shocked if the Phobos Librarian was concepted as a Raven Guard character or something, just turned generic.

A lot of named Chaplains especially Masters of Sanctity have fluff about basically being the 10th Company Chaplain when <Chapter> <Chapter Master> was just starting in the scout company. Each company, including the 10th company has its own Chaplain, not every company has its own Libby.

Chaplains for scouts are actually fairly important and on point. They're the new young bloods, just getting used to life as a transhuman space marine. Keeping their crazy in check and making sure their aren't any secret deviants in the bunch is vitally important.

**Breton**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Companies don't have Librarians. They're not part of the 10-company structure.

At least not the Strict Codex Adherent ones. The Blood Ravens supposedly have/had a Chielf Librarian Chapter Master so Deviation is possible.

**BrianDavion**

even the blood ravens don't FORMALLY assign librarians to companies, but some often accompany a company. but thats proably common eneugh in most chapters.

**Kanluwen**

Breton wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

It's because Librarians are more adaptive than Chaplains when it comes to the concept of working with the Scout forces. I wouldn't be shocked if the Phobos Librarian was concepted as a Raven Guard character or something, just turned generic.

A lot of named Chaplains especially Masters of Sanctity have fluff about basically being the 10th Company Chaplain when <Chapter> <Chapter Master> was just starting in the scout company. Each company, including the 10th company has its own Chaplain, not every company has its own Libby.

And how many of those Chaplains have been fluffed as going on missions with the Scouts?

I get what you're arguing for, but it's worth taking a look at the post-Vanguard organization chart:

Spoiler:

I don't have my codex handy(lent it to a friend who's been interested in Salamanders for awhile now) to check the actual text of stuff, but my Raven Guard supplement backs that table up.

**Super Ready**

Uhhhh. What am I missing about that chart? It doesn't look like it has anything relevant to how any of the various characters (besides Captains and LTs) are assigned to any of the companies, let alone Chaplains and the 10th specifically.

**Kanluwen**

Super Ready wrote:
Uhhhh. What am I missing about that chart? It doesn't look like it has anything relevant to how any of the various characters (besides Captains and LTs) are assigned to any of the companies, let alone Chaplains and the 10th specifically.

This is the chart that most commonly is used as reference for the whole Pre-Primaris/Vanguard Company, 'everybody gets a Chaplain!' bit:

Spoiler:

Post-Primaris/Vanguard Company:

Spoiler:

Far as I can tell? The Chaplain fluff seems to be 'lost'...and has been for awhile. There's a lot of 'needs citation' listings on Lexicanum, which is what I'm working with at the moment as I had to go back to the 4th edition 'doctrines' book to find an entry with a table resembling that. With the reintroduction of the Lieutenants...the old 'every Company gets a Chaplain' rule might be gone as a hard and fast rule for every Company.

**alextroy**

I suspect is more a matter of all chaplains are members of the reclusiam and are then assigned to oversee a company. They are outside of the chapter chain of command.

**Tamwulf**

You don't see many Gravis Captains because the model was available in ONE box set at the release of 8th edition and hasn't been available as a separate model since. For just about all of 8th edition, he was the best Captain to take in a Primaris force. But I digress...

This is all pointless speculation as the new codex drops next month.

**Kanluwen**

Two box sets actually.

Dark Imperium and Know No Fear both had the Gravis Captain. KNF was $75-$80, I think? It didn't have as much stuff as Dark Imperium but it also wasn't toting the core rulebook in it.