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 Mr Morden wrote:
I agree that some update for some armies (mostly Imperial) is good....its not as good as general Index update.

Which would instantly invalidate every existing in-print Codex. No. That's not better.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The other issue is the armies that are actually getting supplements soon got super special updates which will be replaced in a short time but the armies that wonlt get one for six months to a year got nothing.

The Space Marine Codex update took away tons of units from Dark Angel, Blood Angel, and especially Space Wolf players. All their unique units were lost overnight. They needed an Index so they could keep playing their armies rather than just using generic First Born/Primaris units.

This is why they got an Index and, for example, Tyranids didn't, as the Tyranid Codex is completely valid and hasn't been replaced or had vast swathes of it removed by a more recent Codex.

This is also a bit of a one off situation, it’s not like this happens regularly

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I agree that some update for some armies (mostly Imperial) is good....its not as good as general Index update.

Which would instantly invalidate every existing in-print Codex. No. That's not better.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The other issue is the armies that are actually getting supplements soon got super special updates which will be replaced in a short time but the armies that wonlt get one for six months to a year got nothing.

The Space Marine Codex update took away tons of units from Dark Angel, Blood Angel, and especially Space Wolf players. All their unique units were lost overnight. They needed an Index so they could keep playing their armies rather than just using generic First Born/Primaris units.

This is why they got an Index and, for example, Tyranids didn't, as the Tyranid Codex is completely valid and hasn't been replaced or had vast swathes of it removed by a more recent Codex.

So having the game balance be totally broken and to then buff stats only on thing's that arbitrarily share a name, was better for game balance and the long term health of the player base/community than GW admitting to what the fact that they're currently rebaslining the statblocks for 9th and you know owning it and being proactive instead of just hand waiving

Is the game balance "totally broken"?

I don't know why people are acting as if this is somehow a unique situation. An army changed, not the fundamentals of the game (that happened at the start of the previous edition).

The only significant thing that happened is that they took the time to update all the same weapons across every army that has them. That's something they would not have done in the past.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is the game balance "totally broken"?

I don't know why people are acting as if this is somehow a unique situation. An army changed, not the fundamentals of the game (that happened at the start of the previous edition).

The only significant thing that happened is that they took the time to update all the same weapons across every army that has them. That's something they would not have done in the past.

When the win ratios are for some 65% to 35% yeah game balance is not good.

Its amazing how basic competence and consistency is touted as something praiseworthy. Good Job GW, you got to the potty on time!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I agree that some update for some armies (mostly Imperial) is good....its not as good as general Index update.

Which would instantly invalidate every existing in-print Codex. No. That's not better.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The other issue is the armies that are actually getting supplements soon got super special updates which will be replaced in a short time but the armies that wonlt get one for six months to a year got nothing.

The Space Marine Codex update took away tons of units from Dark Angel, Blood Angel, and especially Space Wolf players. All their unique units were lost overnight. They needed an Index so they could keep playing their armies rather than just using generic First Born/Primaris units.

This is why they got an Index and, for example, Tyranids didn't, as the Tyranid Codex is completely valid and hasn't been replaced or had vast swathes of it removed by a more recent Codex.

you'd think Mr Morden would understand that since he keeps insisting he's a space marine player.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is the game balance "totally broken"?

I don't know why people are acting as if this is somehow a unique situation. An army changed, not the fundamentals of the game (that happened at the start of the previous edition).

The only significant thing that happened is that they took the time to update all the same weapons across every army that has them. That's something they would not have done in the past.

When game already had factions that have higher WR than others which now get 100% free buffs(not even paying new points) when damage output for weapons doubles or even more...yeah.

It's not even that weapons got changed. But that they got buffed significantly and stayed same price when the factions were already at the top.

So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

BrianDavion wrote:
So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

Not that unlikely?
on the other hand some are still there right?

Who knows, GW does start with a design paradigm , it doesn't really work out then changes mid edition...

tneva82 wrote:
It's not even that weapons got changed. But that they got buffed significantly and stayed same price when the factions were already at the top.

You're referring to Chaos/Sisters/Guard/etc., that is to say all the armies that didn't just get a new Codex with new prices for everything?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's not even that weapons got changed. But that they got buffed significantly and stayed same price when the factions were already at the top.

You're referring to Chaos/Sisters/Guard/etc., that is to say all the armies that didn't just get a new Codex with new prices for everything?

honestly I'd say sisters proably came out the best from this change. normally WHC articles on power etc is often disconnected from reality (to put it mildly) but they weren't wrong when they said retributor sistyers are crazy good now

BrianDavion wrote:
So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

Did salamanders lose their? Ultramarines their? Might be missing but those seems still valid.

Rather PA got removed for good now as the replacement comes in few months. New salamander/ultramarine/etc supplements are bit longer to 2021.

BrianDavion wrote:
So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

Phasing out Super Doctrines, or phasing out Black Templars?

In the case of the BA/DA/SW, I imagine their Super Doctrine will reappear in their Supplement, but the BT are in a slightly odd spot - then again, if nothing has said their content from PA is invalid, then it remains valid (while the other three have text which invalidates both their PA and their existing 'dexes).

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

Phasing out Super Doctrines, or phasing out Black Templars?

In the case of the BA/DA/SW, I imagine their Super Doctrine will reappear in their Supplement, but the BT are in a slightly odd spot - then again, if nothing has said their content from PA is invalid, then it remains valid (while the other three have text which invalidates both their PA and their existing 'dexes).

Wasn't SW super doctrine exploding 6's in assault phase? That's still there at least. Blood angels get additional attack when charge/charged/heroic intervening. Still there.

(okay maybe that was separate thing and marines had even more of stuff...)

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

Phasing out Super Doctrines, or phasing out Black Templars?

In the case of the BA/DA/SW, I imagine their Super Doctrine will reappear in their Supplement, but the BT are in a slightly odd spot - then again, if nothing has said their content from PA is invalid, then it remains valid (while the other three have text which invalidates both their PA and their existing 'dexes).

Wasn't SW super doctrine exploding 6's in assault phase? That's still there at least. Blood angels get additional attack when charge/charged/heroic intervening. Still there.

(okay maybe that was separate thing and marines had even more of stuff...)

Pass - I didn't pick up any of the PA books, and was working off what Brian said. I take it you're referring to "Save Echoes", in the case of the Blood Angels?

Also, it'd be nice to know what's going on with the datasheets for the proper versions of Ragnar and Mephiston, given they don't appear to be in the BA or SW temporary PDFs, and they've not appeared in Legends yet.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

Phasing out Super Doctrines, or phasing out Black Templars?

In the case of the BA/DA/SW, I imagine their Super Doctrine will reappear in their Supplement, but the BT are in a slightly odd spot - then again, if nothing has said their content from PA is invalid, then it remains valid (while the other three have text which invalidates both their PA and their existing 'dexes).

Wasn't SW super doctrine exploding 6's in assault phase? That's still there at least. Blood angels get additional attack when charge/charged/heroic intervening. Still there.

(okay maybe that was separate thing and marines had even more of stuff...)

gak you're right, space wolves still have theirs as do blood angels and dark angels. makes me suspect that black templars lost theirs by omission. think I'll send GW an email

 Dysartes wrote:


Also, it'd be nice to know what's going on with the datasheets for the proper versions of Ragnar and Mephiston, given they don't appear to be in the BA or SW temporary PDFs, and they've not appeared in Legends yet.

I found Ragnar(the guy that throws up ridiculous number of attacks with exploding 4+ with 1CP stratagem) in PDF. Mephiston found on page 10 of BA PDF errata.

edit: and yes if you meant non-primaris...Gone. Poof. No more.

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So it just occured to me, all the various marine factions that got a super doctrine in their PA just lost it. including black templars whom, as far as we know, aren't getting a supplement. could GW be moving to phase them out?

Phasing out Super Doctrines, or phasing out Black Templars?

In the case of the BA/DA/SW, I imagine their Super Doctrine will reappear in their Supplement, but the BT are in a slightly odd spot - then again, if nothing has said their content from PA is invalid, then it remains valid (while the other three have text which invalidates both their PA and their existing 'dexes).

Wasn't SW super doctrine exploding 6's in assault phase? That's still there at least. Blood angels get additional attack when charge/charged/heroic intervening. Still there.

(okay maybe that was separate thing and marines had even more of stuff...)

Pass - I didn't pick up any of the PA books, and was working off what Brian said. I take it you're referring to "Save Echoes", in the case of the Blood Angels?

Also, it'd be nice to know what's going on with the datasheets for the proper versions of Ragnar and Mephiston, given they don't appear to be in the BA or SW temporary PDFs, and they've not appeared in Legends yet.

if by proper versions you mean the "non-primaris" versions, they don't exist. I mean, if you want a first born Ragnar, just squint and use Krom

BrianDavion wrote:

gak you're right, space wolves still have theirs as do blood angels and dark angels. makes me suspect that black templars lost theirs by omission. think I'll send GW an email

Entirely possible(it's GW we are talking about ) so yeah send away. Can't hurt in any case and if it's "whoops" enough noise about that could sort it out.

Though...SW/BA PA got deleted by respective errata. Without anything saying otherwise...BT one is still valid.

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

gak you're right, space wolves still have theirs as do blood angels and dark angels. makes me suspect that black templars lost theirs by omission. think I'll send GW an email

Entirely possible(it's GW we are talking about ) so yeah send away. Can't hurt in any case and if it's "whoops" enough noise about that could sort it out.

Though...SW/BA PA got deleted by respective errata. Without anything saying otherwise...BT one is still valid.

BT one specificly says it's invalid too. although frankly I think it'd be a dick move not to let the black templars use the super doctrine from F&F when playing agaisnt one. I mean....... it's hardly game breaking

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

gak you're right, space wolves still have theirs as do blood angels and dark angels. makes me suspect that black templars lost theirs by omission. think I'll send GW an email

Entirely possible(it's GW we are talking about ) so yeah send away. Can't hurt in any case and if it's "whoops" enough noise about that could sort it out.

Though...SW/BA PA got deleted by respective errata. Without anything saying otherwise...BT one is still valid.

BT one specificly says it's invalid too. although frankly I think it'd be a dick move not to let the black templars use the super doctrine from F&F when playing agaisnt one. I mean....... it's hardly game breaking

BT don't have specific errata on their name. And at least I didnt' find in faith and fury. What PA they were?

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

gak you're right, space wolves still have theirs as do blood angels and dark angels. makes me suspect that black templars lost theirs by omission. think I'll send GW an email

Entirely possible(it's GW we are talking about ) so yeah send away. Can't hurt in any case and if it's "whoops" enough noise about that could sort it out.

Though...SW/BA PA got deleted by respective errata. Without anything saying otherwise...BT one is still valid.

BT one specificly says it's invalid too. although frankly I think it'd be a dick move not to let the black templars use the super doctrine from F&F when playing agaisnt one. I mean....... it's hardly game breaking

BT don't have specific errata on their name. And at least I didnt' find in faith and fury. What PA they were?

Helpfully, the BT IA document isn't linked to from the FAQ section, only the WHC post about the updates - Brian, if you're emailing GW about the Super Doctrine, you might want to mention that too.

And, yes, the "proper" versions of Ragnar and Mephiston are the non-Primaris ones - if we can have the datasheets for the two proper versions of Marneus in Legends, they can crop up there too. They probably shouldn't've been given exactly the same datasheet name in the first place...

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I agree that some update for some armies (mostly Imperial) is good....its not as good as general Index update.

Which would instantly invalidate every existing in-print Codex. No. That's not better.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The other issue is the armies that are actually getting supplements soon got super special updates which will be replaced in a short time but the armies that wonlt get one for six months to a year got nothing.

The Space Marine Codex update took away tons of units from Dark Angel, Blood Angel, and especially Space Wolf players. All their unique units were lost overnight. They needed an Index so they could keep playing their armies rather than just using generic First Born/Primaris units.

This is why they got an Index and, for example, Tyranids didn't, as the Tyranid Codex is completely valid and hasn't been replaced or had vast swathes of it removed by a more recent Codex.

you'd think Mr Morden would understand that since he keeps insisting he's a space marine player.

I am space marine player -Mate - get over yourself

Weird, why can't space wolf and dark angel and blood angel players just keep using their unique units at W1?

Chaos players have to.

the_scotsman wrote:
Weird, why can't space wolf and dark angel and blood angel players just keep using their unique units at W1?

Chaos players have to.

Chaos players didn't just get a new Codex. BA/DA/Woof players just did.

There is literally no comparison.

Anyone notice that Sly Marbo can now by pass "look out sir"?

Has this always been the case? I didn't know he had character targeting?

Sly could snipe characters back in 8th.

tneva82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is the game balance "totally broken"?

I don't know why people are acting as if this is somehow a unique situation. An army changed, not the fundamentals of the game (that happened at the start of the previous edition).

The only significant thing that happened is that they took the time to update all the same weapons across every army that has them. That's something they would not have done in the past.

When game already had factions that have higher WR than others which now get 100% free buffs(not even paying new points) when damage output for weapons doubles or even more...yeah.

It's not even that weapons got changed. But that they got buffed significantly and stayed same price when the factions were already at the top.

I mean...objectively all the weapons that got changed were ALREADY a major balance issue because they were all almost unfixably terrible. Generic flamers were a meme weapon for new players to waste points on, multimeltas were arguably the worst weapon for the points in the game and were so bad that that crippled any vehicle that HAD to take them, and heavy bolters were mediocre at the absolute best.

So they fixed a significant balance issue at the expense of making sisters way stronger, guard and chaos quite a bit stronger, and marines a bit stronger. It's ultimately a sidegrade at the moment, but with the POTENTIAL to be a superior balance decision considering you no longer have to figure out how to cost a weapon as awful as the old multimeltas without just making it the same price as a regular melta gun.

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is the game balance "totally broken"?

I don't know why people are acting as if this is somehow a unique situation. An army changed, not the fundamentals of the game (that happened at the start of the previous edition).

The only significant thing that happened is that they took the time to update all the same weapons across every army that has them. That's something they would not have done in the past.

When game already had factions that have higher WR than others which now get 100% free buffs(not even paying new points) when damage output for weapons doubles or even more...yeah.

It's not even that weapons got changed. But that they got buffed significantly and stayed same price when the factions were already at the top.

I mean...objectively all the weapons that got changed were ALREADY a major balance issue because they were all almost unfixably terrible. Generic flamers were a meme weapon for new players to waste points on, multimeltas were arguably the worst weapon for the points in the game and were so bad that that crippled any vehicle that HAD to take them, and heavy bolters were mediocre at the absolute best.

So they fixed a significant balance issue at the expense of making sisters way stronger, guard and chaos quite a bit stronger, and marines a bit stronger. It's ultimately a sidegrade at the moment, but with the POTENTIAL to be a superior balance decision considering you no longer have to figure out how to cost a weapon as awful as the old multimeltas without just making it the same price as a regular melta gun.

honestly I see this whole debate as being basicly down to short vs long term thinking. the people against it are worried about their army not being as strong for 6 months to a year or however long it takes to get a new 'dex.
the people defending it understand those concerns but reckongize that in the long term this'll be benifical