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Yeah I was just having a laugh at baconboi really because of his usual insistence on precise wording.

Bought the Fabius book from Psychic Awakening. Only one.

Nice Fabius centric rules so good stuff. Lore was fething dire though.

Do I feel scammed - nope, was only into it for our man Fabulous B.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Is this another case of GW bamboozling and we're gonna have to wait for the new codex?

I suggest following a CPAW approach to this issue, not a CPAYRI one.

Community planning assistance for wildfires?

Colossal Prostate Analysis Weasel protocols are usually more effective than the Capybara Practices Air Yotsutake Really Irritatingly approach.

CPAW - Community Post As Written
CPAYRI - Community Post As You Remember It...

I am surprised that anyone really believed that the so called Campaign books were written for 9th. That was a lie called out then and proved now.

Its sad in many ways:

* Marine players were given the majority of the page count for copy pasted and now proved useless min dexes.
* Everyone else got little or nothing because of this be it lore, models or stories.
* All those wasted pages could have been used for an interesting story rather than just bits of story wedged in between endless Marine reprints.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

And you would lose.

You can complain all you want about the short lifespan of the books but that doesn't mean you got scammed.

this is intersting, because when nike sold a big bunch of their stuff a few years back, which just fell apart, and which they only sold in Eastern EU not western. They got in to trouble for it. Same as all the companies producing washing powders, food, fertilzers etc which were named the same as western products, but were of lower quality. What is even more funny the EU parliment thought it was a joke, till the tests from eastern EU countries starting coming in. And our Ariel is in deed less of an Ariel then the german one, and our Milk less of a Milk bar then the one from France or Spain.

But I really doubt a UK based and important company, would be attacked because of some complains of unimportant people, specialy from outside of UK.

What would be your ideal solution to the situation?

GW not puting out a book with 8th ed centric rules just before 9th edition slams down? But then again VW sold us cars, which then germany made illegal because of EU regulations. So maybe that is life. Big companies and big countries do what ever they want.

Karol wrote:

What would be your ideal solution to the situation?

GW not puting out a book with 8th ed centric rules just before 9th edition slams down? But then again VW sold us cars, which then germany made illegal because of EU regulations. So maybe that is life. Big companies and big countries do what ever they want.

Are you angry at Sony for still releasing PS4 games today when the PS5 is coming out in a month? Your solution does not convince me.

Karol wrote:
this is intersting, because when nike sold a big bunch of their stuff a few years back, which just fell apart, and which they only sold in Eastern EU not western. They got in to trouble for it. Same as all the companies producing washing powders, food, fertilzers etc which were named the same as western products, but were of lower quality. What is even more funny the EU parliment thought it was a joke, till the tests from eastern EU countries starting coming in. And our Ariel is in deed less of an Ariel then the german one, and our Milk less of a Milk bar then the one from France or Spain.

It's nowhere near the same thing. Here, you're talking about goods either being not "fit for purpose" (an important phrase in UK law), or of varying quality when compared to a reasonable baseline.
To give another example, Cadbury's chocolate follows a different recipe in the UK than it does in the US - but nobody's going to (successfully) take them to court for it, because it's to suit their respective markets' differing tastes, and the quality of goods within those markets is reasonably consistent.

If the complaint were that the Codex fell apart when you thumbed through it - or that your Codex had different rules from a friend picking up a copy of what was supposed to be the same book - then you'd have a case. There might also have been a case if the Psychic Awakening books were advertised as "fully compatible with 40k 9th edition"...but they weren't. That wording of "9th edition in mind" was carefully chosen for a reason.

As others have mentioned, the product still works with 8th edition and you aren't forced into making the jump to 9th edition if you don't want to. Therefore, the product still works as advertised and under UK law at least - you have no case.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Are you angry at Sony for still releasing PS4 games today when the PS5 is coming out in a month? Your solution does not convince me.

There's a couple of key differences here as well. One being that for the majority of games, you can still play those games on your PS4, they won't suddenly stop working - and customers know this whilst also knowing that the PS5 is on its way. You can say the same about 8th edition books, of course - finding other players may prove difficult, but still possible.

The other is that games are (admittedly dubiously) covered in this way legally via license agreements. You don't actually buy the game - you buy a license to play the game - and the publisher makes you agree to the EULA that means you basically have very little grounds for recourse if they decide to stop the game from working. This is why you don't have lawsuits popping up for multiplayer games being unsupported after a few years - you already legally agreed that the publisher was allowed to do that, whether you were actually aware of it or not.

Anyone else nervous about Germany and Poland getting into an argument in this thread?


Topic on hand, this is just how GW does things. For as long as I can remember they put out rules up until the edition change. Usually the codexes carry over but not always. It seems extra crappy because of how many books were released with cool marine stuff before what feels like immediately replacing the codex and making those books out of date.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am surprised that anyone really believed that the so called Campaign books were written for 9th. That was a lie called out then and proved now.

Its sad in many ways:

* Marine players were given the majority of the page count for copy pasted and now proved useless min dexes.
* Everyone else got little or nothing because of this be it lore, models or stories.
* All those wasted pages could have been used for an interesting story rather than just bits of story wedged in between endless Marine reprints.

You seem very motivated to push an anti-SM narrative for this series of books, despite reality not agreeing with your claims.

Given your reference to "copy pasted and now proved useless min dexes.", we can conclude you're talking about Loyalist SM. They feature in exactly four of the nine books, with only three of them featuring this so-called "min dexes" - maybe four, if you judge the BT content from F&F to be on the same level as the BA/DA/SW content. Personally, I'd've put the BT in the IF supplement, or maybe a WD (like the Deathwatch ended up being), but that's just me. They do dominate the page count for the three books with the BA/DA/SW content in, but it is worth noting that the CSM use up a greater page count of Faith and Fury than the SM & BT content does, but ten pages or so. So we can see that they don't appear in five books, and therefore don't use up the majority of the page count in six of them.

You then go on to blame these SM reprints in those three books as the reason why other factions didn't get much material across the whole nine book range, which doesn't make much sense for two reasons. Firstly, as noted, a large proportion of the content in those three "min dexes" is almost identical, merely with the [CHAPTER] keyword
filed off and replaced with the appropriate Chapter name. Looking at the ToC for Ritual of the Damned, for example, that accounts for 14 of the 18 datasheets in the book, leaving two special characters and two Interrogator-Chaplains that actually need some work - and in three out of four cases, it's just applying Litanies to the Chaplain equivalents. Aside from (hopefully) testing Asmodai and the two Interrogator-Chaplains out, 17 out of 18 datasheets take minimal work to implement. Given that the datasheets make up a third of the pages the DA get in the book, we're not seeing a lot of Studio effort here.

I count a further 7 or 8 pages which would be reprint material (Abilities, Updated Weapon and Datasheet Amendments, Datasheets (might only be a half page), Angels of Death, Obscuration Discipline, Vanguard Warlord Traits, Litanies of Battle and maybe Special Issue Wargear) - and that's without knowing how many of the Stratagems are reprints (given I don't own the book to check). I don't see an obvious reference to a two-page spread of painted models, so I don't know if that's in there. Most of the points values page will be a reprint as well.

What does that leave as new content? Pages 30-33 (4 pages) look to be background, Master Lazarus' datasheet (shares a page reference with "Datasheets", above, so let's call it half a page), some degree of the Stratagem section may be new material (somewhere between 1 and 3 pages), the Death/Ravenwing Warlord Traits (1), Relics of Caliban (1), and the points and name generator (2 pages) - so, 8.5 pages, plus whatever is needed for non-reprint stratagems.

That shouldn't be that much development time for the Studio, even allowing for that much material three times for BA/DA/SW. If you really think 10-11 pages three times is enough work to lead to everyone else getting, in your words, "little or nothing", then I've got a couple of bridges I'd like to sell you. I think you'll love the one with views of the Sydney Opera House, for example.

Could the page count have taken up by reprinted material - which I'll estimate at 20 pages per mini-dex, so 60 pages total - have been used to enhance the story? Maybe - but given they had six other books to play with where those 20 pages weren't used of reprints, and no-one is claiming they did a stellar job in those, are they? I mean, did anyone praise the story of Phoenix Rising or Engine War when they dropped, let alone Pariah? I certainly don't remember it, so I doubt those 60 extra pages would've been filled with quality, memorable story beats had that happened.

To give another example, Cadbury's chocolate follows a different recipe in the UK than it does in the US - but nobody's going to (successfully) take them to court for it, because it's to suit their respective markets' differing tastes, and the quality of goods within those markets is reasonably consistent.

as czech, poles and slovaks have proved all the companies that sold their stuff here, claimed the products are the same and they didn't want to give the recipies, saying they are protecting their secret trade marks. It took 3 years of testing in multiple countries to prove they are making different stuff for western EU and for eastern EU, and technicly there is no separate western and eastern EU market just one. Procter and Gamble did the same. As did all the car companies, and those were the most fun, because in factories located in eastern europe the cars produced for the western markets were build with better materials then those ment for local markets.

Therefore, the product still works as advertised and under UK law at least - you have no case.

From what I understand about british law, it is legal for UK to hold and never give up stuff they stole all across the world and hold it as theirs, so the argument about uk law says something is a weak entice to do stuff. And that is why we have so many recasters here.

Protecting trade secrets or other proprietary information, Karol, not trademarks.

Comeon guys, its not rocket science.

GW left out the wound change so you can be all happy about your book (arriving in 6 months or so) with positive wound changes makeing it more of a "must have". Its a marketing ploy, and they couldnt care less how 'tarded it is.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Karol wrote:

What would be your ideal solution to the situation?

GW not puting out a book with 8th ed centric rules just before 9th edition slams down? But then again VW sold us cars, which then germany made illegal because of EU regulations. So maybe that is life. Big companies and big countries do what ever they want.

Are you angry at Sony for still releasing PS4 games today when the PS5 is coming out in a month? Your solution does not convince me.

If Sony told me that these PS4 games will be compatible with the PS5 and then turned the compatibility features in the PS5 off 2 months after releasing the PS5, that'd be false advertising. Not that you have any chance in court to get your money back for the PA books, but as a customer, this is probably going to affect my future purchases of books like that. For example I'd probably only have bought Pariah since I have zero interested in how Blood Angels are fighting Tyranids, for example - I only care about the Tyranid rules part of that book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Therefore, the product still works as advertised and under UK law at least - you have no case.

From what I understand about british law, it is legal for UK to hold and never give up stuff they stole all across the world and hold it as theirs, so the argument about uk law says something is a weak entice to do stuff. And that is why we have so many recasters here.

UK law is way more consumer friendly than eg US law, that's probably what they're refering to.
Germany killed lots of people in the past, doesn't mean our Grundgesetz is a bad example when it comes to human rights.

Karol wrote:

From what I understand about british law, it is legal for UK to hold and never give up stuff they stole all across the world and hold it as theirs, so the argument about uk law says something is a weak entice to do stuff. And that is why we have so many recasters here.

1. UK law doesnt exsist legally never has
English Law and Scotslaw are the legal systems of the UK.
2. If you are refering to a lot of stuff from the time of the British empire that a political charge subject but short version is as much as poeple want to claim everything was stole or taken without consent, most of it was bought/sold. The authority of the person who sold the item to do so when it comes to the sale of historical artefact in history is a complex subject as many of the country's have had atleast 1 system of rule change & sometimes multiple systems of rule since that time.

nekooni wrote:
If Sony told me that these PS4 games will be compatible with the PS5 and then turned the compatibility features in the PS5 off 2 months after releasing the PS5, that'd be false advertising.

But the compatibility is not being turned off. You can still start your game. If the remastered edition of the game comes out half a year later to take advantage of the new hardware, you can keep playing the PS4 version. Multiplayer is still working, too. Most people will just move on to the new version of the game, so you might have to rendevouz with your mates or wait longer to find a match.

Dai wrote:
If you've been scammed I suggest reporting it to the police.

Dude, the police often refuse to investigate serious violent crimes, much less corporate malfeasance.

Could the page count have taken up by reprinted material - which I'll estimate at 20 pages per mini-dex, so 60 pages total - have been used to enhance the story

60 pages of useless reprints says it all - very clearly to me.

Crispy78 wrote:
The Traitor Legions book that more or less fixed CSM at the end of 7th edition was only valid for 6 months tops... :(

Imperial agents. I bought it for myself for Xmas. Mistake.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Could the page count have taken up by reprinted material - which I'll estimate at 20 pages per mini-dex, so 60 pages total - have been used to enhance the story

60 pages of useless reprints says it all - very clearly to me.

They're only useless now because of the combination on the ongoing global situation and a new edition launch - when they were released, I believe the players affected found adding Doctrines, etc, to their armies to be very useful.

That's less than 10% of the overall series (assuming 9 books at 80 printed pages, which seems to be about right). Not only that, they're pages clumped within 3 books (and one White Dwarf, if you want to include Deathwatch in this), not evenly distributed across the nine.

You really need to talk to someone about this obsession, dude. It ain't healthy.

As others have pointed out, I don't think these are even the most egregious examples of books late in an edition becoming completely pointless shortly afterwards.

They were useless to me, but that simply meant I didn't buy them, and thus feel not even remotely concerned they're no longer valid.

I wholeheartedly encourage everyone else to not buy them and similar products in the future.

 Dysartes wrote:

You really need to talk to someone about this obsession, dude. It ain't healthy.

I don't know about this. Yes, I also think that in this case it is unhealthy but, in a lot of cases, the obsession is the only reason change was ever made. That one obsessive person that latched on to that bone and refused to let go, is really the back bone of just about every David vs Goliath legal battle.

Granted, if one wanted to have a lot of fun with this, they would sue under EU law.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am surprised that anyone really believed that the so called Campaign books were written for 9th. That was a lie called out then and proved now

problem is, GW never said that
the only said it was written with 9th in mind, not that the books were written for 9th

and this is something we knew from the past, "written with next Edi in mind" just means "we knew that the next edition was on its way while writing that book" and nothing more

GW never lied, you were just manipulated by GW marketing to believe that they will do what you would like to see while it already was very clear what would happen after the first PA book was released

same with the no full digital Codex and just the Datasheets in the App, people thought it would be the other way around because marketing said that Nu-GW is your friend and people thought this is what a friend would do
yet it was clear the first time the announced it that it will be not a full Codex and you only get it with the paperback


People need to read what GW is writing and not just hope that they will do what the community would like to see

Peck420 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

You really need to talk to someone about this obsession, dude. It ain't healthy.

I don't know about this. Yes, I also think that in this case it is unhealthy but, in a lot of cases, the obsession is the only reason change was ever made. That one obsessive person that latched on to that bone and refused to let go, is really the back bone of just about every David vs Goliath legal battle.

Granted, if one wanted to have a lot of fun with this, they would sue under EU law.

Any legal attempt to try and claim they were scammed by this book will fail. Under any court of law. It’s ridiculous to even entertain that it might be seen to have merit as a case anywhere and even make it to court. If you disagree, do try it and let us know how you get on...

Peck420 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

You really need to talk to someone about this obsession, dude. It ain't healthy.

I don't know about this. Yes, I also think that in this case it is unhealthy but, in a lot of cases, the obsession is the only reason change was ever made. That one obsessive person that latched on to that bone and refused to let go, is really the back bone of just about every David vs Goliath legal battle.

Granted, if one wanted to have a lot of fun with this, they would sue under EU law.

oh, that'd be fun, turning this form a "few annoyed citizens vs a major company" to a "UK vs EU", as given the championing of the end of jurisdiction of EU courts in the uk form Jan, come hell, high water, or COVID, i can hard fail to see the UK goverment telling the EU where they can shove that suit.

but, back to the actual topic:

I dont think the PA books are useless, or at least not all of them. the two that affect the armies i collect (Engine War and War of the Spider) give both those armies significant expansions, with new units, relics, warlord traits, and especially stratagems. now, is it worth as much as the main faction codex? thats a different question. Either way, i dont expect a 9th ed codex for either admech or custodes until late 2021 at best, so i'm still going to get useful time and milage out of those rules, pretty much regardless.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Any legal attempt to try and claim they were scammed by this book will fail. Under any court of law. It’s ridiculous to even entertain that it might be seen to have merit as a case anywhere and even make it to court. If you disagree, do try it and let us know how you get on...

What jurisdiction would the hearings take place in?

a_typical_hero wrote:

You bought a book for the 8th edition, you can use your book for the 8th edition. If you are not happy with the price to value ratio, then my honest, not sarcastic advice is to read a review the next time before you buy something.

What would be your ideal solution to the situation?

Digital collections of rules offered for a massively reduced price, if not free, that update according to FAQs and errata from a central server, and divorced from massive hardbacks of beautiful but thoroughly unnecessary artwork, lore and studio model pictures when you just want an arrangement of text telling you how to play the damn game.

Peck420 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Any legal attempt to try and claim they were scammed by this book will fail. Under any court of law. It’s ridiculous to even entertain that it might be seen to have merit as a case anywhere and even make it to court. If you disagree, do try it and let us know how you get on...

What jurisdiction would the hearings take place in?

Take your pick! Wherever you fancy being laughed out of.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
Digital collections of rules offered for a massively reduced price, if not free, that update according to FAQs and errata from a central server, and divorced from massive hardbacks of beautiful but thoroughly unnecessary artwork, lore and studio model pictures when you just want an arrangement of text telling you how to play the damn game.

I'm playing devil's advocate and say that this is what GW is doing with the new codices, isn't it? You buy your codex and get a "free/discounted" digital version on top. This digital version could get updates and erratas incorporated directly into it. Wether that is going to happen, we have to see after the new books are out.

I don't think it's a scam in any legal sense, but yeah, PA felt like a cash-grab, and its relevancy is likely to be very little.

Its also doubled-down on that due to the global situation. I feel if you'd enjoyed the books for 9 months or so, then its *short* but at least its something, if you are the sort of person who would be playing every week or two.

Obviously if you bought the books in March/May, played essentially no games over the last 6 months, and now its borderline-void, then you are going to feel ripped off.

And I don't know who bought that last book. Basically a long-form white dwarf article, if white dwarf did that sort of thing these days.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:
Digital collections of rules offered for a massively reduced price, if not free, that update according to FAQs and errata from a central server, and divorced from massive hardbacks of beautiful but thoroughly unnecessary artwork, lore and studio model pictures when you just want an arrangement of text telling you how to play the damn game.

I'm playing devil's advocate and say that this is what GW is doing with the new codices, isn't it? You buy your codex and get a "free/discounted" digital version on top. This digital version could get updates and erratas incorporated directly into it. Wether that is going to happen, we have to see after the new books are out.

Ah, but there is no sanctioned way to get just the digital version of the rules alone, for a price far more reasonable than the asking one (and here I'm thinking like $10 USD tops) or for no cost.