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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


What good is RF S3 AP2 d1 shooting at 9"? What is that effective against? Hordes? What are they literally built for? They serve zero purpose. They cost more, shoot less, and do a worse job than regular guard dropped out of a valk.

You have your mindset pre 8th Ed. 7th Ed and previous this really mattered whereas for 8th and 9th Ed mechanics this is totally different. Ap is as, if not more important than strength.

Below is my analysis of the comparisons between a Lambden Lions Hotshot Lasgun and other weapons. Lambden Lions have a further -1ap for a total -3ap (which is massive Maths hammer wise).
The following words have been shortened:
HSL - Hotshot Lasgun, LG - Lasgun, BG - Boltgun (the s4 ap0 type, heard this has been changed), BR - Bolt Rifle, HB - Heavy Bolter, ML - Multi Laser, AC - Autocannon, PG - Plasmagun, KF - Killing Fields, PE - Point Blank Efficacy, EP - Eimination Protocals.
Note all weapons have been calculated with BS3+.

T3 5+
HSL 0.3333
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.3888
HSL with PE or KF 0.4444
HSL with PE or KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.5185
LG 0.2222
BG 0.2963
BR 0.3704
HB 0.3704
ML 0.3704
AC 0.4630
PG 0.5555

Assuming no Laurels of Command and a 2nd Order, FRFSRF will be the best order. This makes a single HSL 92% more effective than an AC when within 9" if using PE ((0.4444x4)/(0.4630x2)) and 44% more effective than an autocannon if not using PE, if between 9-18" a HSL is only 4% less effective than an autocannon when using FRFSRF. FRFSRF also makes a HSL 60% more effective than a plasmagun when using PE within 9" and 20% more effective when not. 9-12" a plasmagun will be slightly more effective (20%) and 12-18" the HSL becomes more effective again. This is a basic Hot Shot Lasgun being more effective than a plasma gun and an autocannon (and significantly better than any other basic weaponary and mid strength weaponary) with only one order and no strategems, and as shown above, a single strategem massively increases it. This effectiveness can be further increased by a second order through Laurels and through the Lions warlord trait.

T3 4+
HSL 0.3333
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.3888
HSL with PE or KF 0.4444
HSL with PE or KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.5185
LG 0.1667
BG 0.2222
BR 0.2963
HB 0.2963
ML 0.2778
AC 0.3704
PG 0.5555

Same as above for the HSL and Plasma comparison but compared to everything else the comparison is even better weighted towards the HSL.

T3 3+
HSL 0.2777
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.3241
HSL with PE or KF 0.3704
HSL with PE or KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.4321
LG 0.1111
BG 0.1481
BR 0.2222
HB 0.2222
ML 0.1852
AC 0.2777
PG 0.4630

In this case each shot from a HSL without orders and without any buffs is exactly as efficient as an AC. Within 9" or between 12"-18" with FRFSRF and a strategem a HSL is 62% more effective than a plasma gun. Even without any buffs or orders it is only 17% less effective than a heavy bolter and only because it has 1 less shot.

T4 5+
HSL 0.2222
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.2593
HSL with PE or KF 0.3333
HSL with PE or KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.3888
LG 0.1481
BG 0.2222
BR 0.2777
HB 0.3703
ML 0.2962
AC 0.3703
PG 0.4444

Each base shot without orders or buffs is half as effective as a plasma gun so with FRFSRF it makes a HSL as effective as a plasmagun. Further strategems increase it past the power of a plasma gun, per gun.
Again at this point a HSL leaves everything else aside from maybe a HB or AC dead in the water when given FRFSRF. Against a HB it is 20% less effective per gun, against an AC it is 8% more effective per gun.  This is not considering anything like rerolling ones or either PE or KF.

T4 4+
HSL 0.2222
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.2593
HSL with PE or KF 0.3333
HSL with PE or KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.3888
LG 0.1111
BG 0.1667
BR 0.2222
HB 0.2962
ML 0.2222
AC 0.2862
PG 0.4444

At T4 4+ it compares the same as a plasma gun as it would at 5+ as neither have changed.  However compared to everything else it has become more powerful. It is now 4% more powerful per gun than a HB when using FRFSRF within 9". Per shot without buffs it is as effective as a multi laser.

T4 3+
HSL 0.1852
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.2160
HSL with PE or KF 0.2777
HSL with PE or KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.3241
LG 0.0741
BG 0.1111
BR 0.1667
HB 0.2222
ML 0.1481
AC 0.2222
PG 0.3704/0.4630

Now we are getting into T4 3+ its worth considering the Damage of the AC and PG in the comparison.
Against a 1W model a HSL without buffs or orders is half as effective per shot as a PG. So FRFSRF makes it as effective per gun. FRFSRF and PE or KF make it 50% more effective than a PG per gun.
If firing at 2W models and the plasma is overcharged (T4 3+ being plasma's sweet spot) the HSL with FRFSRF and PE or KF is only 40% less effective per gun despite only being D1.
Against a 2W model a FRFSRF HSL with PE or KF is 25% more effective than an AC despite only being D1. Without the use of a strategem the HSL is only 17% less effective than an AC against 2W models when using FRFSRF (and 67% more effective against 1W models).

T4 2+
HSL 0.1481
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.1728
HSL with PE or KF 0.2222
HSL with PE or KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.2593
LG 0.0370
BG 0.0556
BR 0.1111
HB 0.1481
ML 0.0741
AC 0.1481
PG 0.2963/0.3704

Against TEQ per shot against a 1W model a HSL is the same as a HB or AC. So twice as effective as an AC if using FRFSRF and no other buffs or orders. Same effectiveness as an AC if using FRFSRF against 2W models. If using a strategem or extra buff it will obviously be more effective than either of these weapons.
It is half as effective as a PG per non overcharged shot so the same when using FRFSRF. Against 2W models when using FRFSRF and PE or KF it is 40% less effective than the overcharged PG.

T5 4+
HSL 0.2222
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.2593
HSL with KF 0.3333
HSL with KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.3888
LG 0.1111
BG 0.1111
BR 0.1481
HB 0.2222
ML 0.2222
AC 0.2963
PG 0.4444/0.4444

Worth pointing out here that the (Lambden Lions) HSL without any buffs or orders, is as effective against a T5 4+ as a normal Lasgun is against T3 5+ and is also twice as effective per shot as a boltgun against the same T5 4+. A standard shot is the equivalent of a HB and ML shot. Half the power of a PG shot. Like before, with FRFSRF this doubles the effectiveness per gun so makes it on par with a PG against 1W models (or half as effective again against 2W models). With KF this becomes 50% more effective against standard plasma and 25% less effective against overcharged on 2W models.

T5 3+
HSL 0.1852
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.2160
HSL with KF 0.2777
HSL with KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.3241
LG 0.0741
BG 0.0741
BR 0.1111
HB 0.1667
ML 0.1481
AC 0.2222
PG 0.3704/0.3704

Same as previous when it comes to plasma in comparison. At this point better than a HB or ML per shot without buffs. Even a minor buff like rerolls of one to hit (WL trait) means that per shot it is only 3% less effective than an AC shot to wound so puts it almost on par with an AC when firing against 2W models if using FRFSRF. If firing at 1W models then the HSL is far superior.

T5 2+
HSL 0.1481
HSL with rerolls 1 to hit 0.1728
HSL with KF 0.2222
HSL with KF and rerolls 1 to hit 0.2593
LG 0.0370
BG 0.0370
BR 0.0741
HB 0.1111
ML 0.0741
AC 0.1481
PG 0.2963

Again the same comparison with PG as above, per shot half as effective, with FRFSRF as effective, against 2W taking it back down to half as effective if the HSL isn't buffed by anything more than that order. As effective per shot this time as an AC, if firing against 2W models the D from AC being balanced out by FRFSRF. Far more efficient than any other weapon explored in these comparsions.

T6/7 4+
HSL 0.1111
HSL with EP 0.2037
HSL with PE 0.2222
HSL with PE and EP 0.3704
LG 0.0556
BG 0.1111
BR 0.1481
HB 0.1481
ML 0.1667/0.1111
AC 0.2963/0.2222
PG 0.4444/0.3333
PG (Overcharged) 0.4444/0.4444

T6/7 is where Scions come into their prime with the EP order since we are looking at monsters and vehicles with this toughness. At this point you'd want the squad to be using EP at every opportunity and PE when possible. With Laurels it's not only possible but easy to give a squad 2 orders (give a Prime the ability to have 3 orders with the WL trait, give him Laurels and stick him near 3 squads... Only 1/8th of the time will there be no unit receiving 2 orders).
With FRFSRF, EP order, PE Strat you are looking at 13-14 wounds on average from 9 Lambden HSL. This is only outpaced by overcharged PGs (only 17% less effective).

T6/7 3+
HSL 0.0926
HSL with EP 0.1698
HSL with PE 0.1852
HSL with PE and EP 0.3086
LG 0.0370
BG 0.0740
BR 0.1111
HB 0.1111
ML 0.1111/0.0740
AC 0.2222/0.1667
PG 0.3704/0.2778
OC PG 0.3704/0.3704

Aside from PGs the HSL is miles ahead of anything else. 9 HSL causing ~11 wounds on average to T6/7 3+ if given FRFSRF and EP through use of Laurels and PE strategem.


As you can see in 8th and 9th BS3+ troops who can fire a s3 ap-3 weapon 4 times and have access to further buffs, orders and strategems are very efficient across the board when it comes to killing multiple different toughness and saves. After all wounding on a 5+ with a 5+ save (st3 ap-3 against T5 2+) is as good as wounding on a 3+ with a 3+ save (st7 ap-1 against T5 2+).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now let's go to the extreme end of the toughness chart.

T8 2+
HSL 0.0740
HSL with EP 0.1358
HSL with EP and rerolls 1 to hit 0.1584
HSL with EP and GotM 0.2037
HSL with EP, rerolls 1 to hit and GotM 0.2377
OC PG 0.2222 with damage 0.4444
Lascannon 0.2963 with damage 1.0370
Krak Missile 0.1667 with damage 0.5833

With FRFSRF and EP due to Laurels in combination with other GotM, a HSL is putting out 0.81 damage against a Landraider. That is more effective than a Krak missile, 8% less effective than overcharged plasma and only 21% less efficient than a lascannon. In fact, a squad of 9 HSL will cause 7.3 wounds to a T8 2+. You'd need ~ 7 lascannons to do the same.

The only thing that needs to pass here is laurels and as mentioned earlier - it's easy to make it so you have an exceedingly high chance of Laurels passing.

I'm really looking forward to using my new Scions when painted. I assume a huge number of people will underestimate those weapons.

Ok, Scions with HSLGs are better against T8 platforms than Plasma guns. I'm sorry but no. You get four shots of Plasma with orders at >12", and 2 shots of las. So the idea that Plasma somehow loses to HSL against anything is silly. You need to be at extreme close range to use HSL effectively. Now who wants to put their elite Scion infantry in extreme close range to a t8 platform? anyone?

Which order allows you to shoot plasma 4 times? FRFSRF only allows HSL to be fired 4 times not plasma. That's why it wins out against plasma in some circumstances when between 0-9" and 12-18". Granted there is a 3" (9-12") gap where it will never be better than plasma. Majority of the time plasma is on par or better - as it should be for what it costs... just not a huge amount better.
And I said HSL were 8% less efficient than overcharged plasma when using 2 orders and a strat.
The T8 2+ was an example to show you the whole range. It wasn't the only one I demonstrated note.
Pure Maths hammer there.

Besides you didn't ask them to be better than overcharged plasma - you asked what was the point of them. I just merely showed that they are more effective per gun than ALL other basic weaponary ALL the time, more effective than some common mid strength weaponary most of the time and in some circumstances more effective than top strength weaponary. I was answering your original question in detail with pure statistics.

You've allowed Fezzik to pull you off topic. I'd just report all his negative comments that literally contribute nothing to the topic.

Dysartes wrote:
Nailed it - for bonus points, revert the name change so they return to being the Stormtroopers they truly are.

Will also accept the in-universe nicknames of "Glory Boys" or "Toy Soldiers" instead.

Name change actually keeps in theme with the Stormtroopers, if I'm gonna be honest. They're war-orphans given over the Progenium Schola. They lose their names and their identities.

Dysartes wrote:

 Samuhell wrote:
Thanks dude, got a lot of people here trying to make scions into just an addition to IG for some reason.

The reason being, that's what they are.

And yet, even with the 8/9E books? They're part of but not integrated within the army. It's no different than the old fluff that you lot seemingly venerate.

Storm Troopers got a Codex to support two kits being released, in a period with some of the worst Codex release philosophies in GW history. After all, just ask Kan about the schism in the Cult Mechanicus the following year,

Yeah, no. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus were two separate elements of a faction that actually could function as a whole. Whatever James Hewitt or whatever ex-GW employees say, pretending that there was some kind of nefarious purpose there is disingenuous. You did not require buying both to field a full army.

Grognards, for whatever reason, took it so damn personally that the two were separate. And then people keep trying to stir the pot against me personally for being irritated that the combined book ruined Skitarii as an army.

And yeah. I'll say that again: the combined book ruined Skitarii as an army more than the switch to 8E could do. It's downright ridiculous that we've had to wait this long for a frigging Skitarii character choice to be brought into the game. And it damned well better be part of at least two different Skitarii character options, one HQ and one Elite, being added.

or how in the same month the ST book came out you got the Imperial Knights book - a lowlight, even at the time - and the month prior had seen a freaking Legion of the Damned codex be released.

Legion of the Damned was a PDF only release. That's a bit of a ridiculous one to bring up.

Something worth mentioning though is that Formations allowed for far, far more flexibility with these kinds of things than just stupid detachments ever could.

Why GW could just wait a month and release those kits alongside the IG book is anyone's guess. Well, the answer is probably "we thought we'd make more money out of it", but it was still a stupid move.

There wasn't a "month" between those releases. Astra Militarum went up for preorder on March 30th 2014, Tempestus went up on March 9th 2014. It also wasn't hidden that the two were coming out together. There was two weeks, tops, between them.

Samuhell wrote:

Absolutely not on a 'melee Scion squad'. They're not cops. They're not riot control. They're assassins, saboteurs, and shock troops. You don't need shields and mauls for that. A perk or Order allowing for them to use their hotshot lasguns as Pistol weapons would not go amiss though.

I'm cool with no melee like I said in my OP it was an idea I had floating around that needed some work, the pistol in combat idea is fab in my opinion. On the assassins part so what do you think to allowing us to have a sniper unit as a Heavy support option?

I think sniper units are wildly going out of fashion in 40k. There's a lot of potential for some kind of 'assassin' unit, but it would be better off as an Elite choice of some kind of Sergeant/Lieutenant equivalent.

Scion Support Squads are something I can kinda/sorta get behind. The big thing though is that if it happens, the Rapier should be involved. It's a tracked weapons carrier. The last thing they need is another 'suppression' weapon like a mortar though. The hotshot volley gun fills that role fairly well.

The rapier has always in my eyes been a space marine toy, the weapons I was thinking were portable easy to use like; snipers, missile launchers, that anti-tank rifle I mentioned in the OP and last but least mortars, I was less bothered by the mortar personally as it doesn't do much we already aren't good at.

Rapier saw its reintroduction to the 40k ecosystem via Forge World for the Guard. Guard heavy weapons are a frigging mess for lists and there's a lot of reworking that needs to happen. Rapier is the right call for the Scions to get heavy weapons brought in organically, since the Rapier could fit inside of a Valkyrie's cargo hold.

Scion Sentinels were a thing I used to be for, but now I just can't get behind it. You mentioned deep strike getting removed from the basic profile, and I can get behind that--with a Scion Forward Team as Fast Attack. Look to Tau Pathfinders for an example here. Some kind of benefit for deep strikers, a flare launcher that lets them mitigate enemies in cover, things like that.

this is cool, yeah a forward recon team maybe combining this with the debuffer idea thrown around earlier would make them a fun little unit to support, how would you equip them though?

You equip them as normal for Scions.

There's room for some different concepts to be added but a big one is that if they choose to, they can go back to the Elysian Detachment 99 concepts. Things like squads toting all flamethrowers, all grenade launcher squads, all plasmas, etc.

You know, its only partially related to "what should Scions get", but I do kind of wish they got more ties to the old Inquisitorial Stormtrooper setup. As is, unless it changed or I misremember, you can throw a random Inquisitor into an Imperial army without breaking anything, but not a full detachment.

It might be nice to say give Scions an optional "Inquisition" keyword that lets them keep their doctrine, unlocks extra wargear, and lets any inquisition unit into the detachment without breaking doctrines or forcing you to take another detachment of just inquisition. Or give a few specific Inquisition doctrines for Scions, like "Ordo Xenos", "Ordo Malleus", "Ordo Hereticus", and a few of the minor orders (or reuse the ones in the Inquisition rules themselves, though I personally dislike rules that give you bonuses vs specific factions. I realize that is the point of the Ordos, but it can kind of feel gamey.).

At the very least it would be nice to be able to include say Acolytes and Daemonhosts without having to take a special detachment.

At most, I'd give them some kind of stratagem that lets you make a unit per stratagem used.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are their own thing entirely. Just like Death Korps Grenadiers, Cadian Kasrkin, and Catachan Devils.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Below is my analysis of the comparisons between a Lambden Lions Hotshot Lasgun and other weapons. Lambden Lions have a further -1ap for a total -3ap (which is massive Maths hammer wise).

Well done, love the statistics.

Personally, I just want plastic Kasrkins (though that does mean re-buying and re-painting an army). I just can't come to like the Scion models.

Also, access to sniper rifles, some heavy weapons (notably HBs, mortars, and now possibly multimeltas), and maybe a few new special weapons like a storm bolter or dare I say shotguns? Having a sergeant with something useful and more shooty would be nice as well. Maybe something Elysian-ish with under barrel grenade launcher? Or something like a carbine HSL variant, but can coordinate fires similar to an Eliminator sergeant?

Getting a Vulture in plastic would be cool and go a long way to having more on the table. I also second the idea of a Valk variant for Scions, something sleeker and maybe with some new special rules. If a normal Valk is a combination of V-22 and UH-1 Huey, I think scions should get the grimdark version of a stealth Blackhawk.

Perhaps some new special/heavy weapons for the Scions? They already have one signature front line weapons in the Hotshots. Why not a special grenade launcher? An EMP one would suit their style of rapid insertion.

Dammit there's so much potential with scions that GW is just sitting on.

DKOK stormtrooper grenadaiers are basically non-deepstrike scions, 2 points less cost, and 2 plasma + 3 hotshotvolleyguns per squad.

They can be augmented with things like some shiny plasma spewing tank commanders to keep the bs3+ theme, and some of the flamer only versions of the hellhounds (which shoot really well because they are in fact not using aim at all. just fire.)

IF you want to go crazy with this, you give the stormtroopers doctrine to any custom ground regiment and viola, you have perfectly legal custom regiment of mech scions that bring their own officers (so not limited to 3 temp primes) and use the "6's in short range give you extra shots" version of scions doctrine.

You could build a rather nice group of troops that way even if you didn't go with dkok storm grenaders. But if you DID want to dkok it, remember the conquerer battle canon lrbt is only available (now) in dkok, so even with "crappy" bs4+, their heavy support can outshoot most gaurd tanks of similar price.

You might hvae to build a few tauroxes with the not -scions - version of the tauroxes to haul those troops around, but you can also make them the aerial wing of your combined deepstrike and air mobile army -- and a few on the ground to flank the tanks.

Viola, its a scions theme park!

Scions as is are already an amazing troop for this edition. They don't need much to be a full fledged army.

The main thing I want for scions I've wanted since I started playing 8th edition with them.

REMOVE DEEP STRIKE FROM THEIR BASE STATLINE.

Scions should pay extra for their deep strike, so that you're not wasting that upgrade when you run them as an army, because you won't be able to put all of them into deep strike.

I stripped and re-primed all mine a couple weeks ago, and they're waiting for me to finish my Blood Ravens so I can give them a fresh look for 9th edition.

Outsider with a bunch of unbuilt stuff here. Anyway if we're wish listing I would enjoy a combat option. Scions can't be competitive without a more durable or glass hammer assault option in this edition. It would be a new unexplored direction in a faction without any such options and reduce the need for souping. Admech pulls this off in multiple ways including the excellent serebys raiders. Sisters do too. I'm sure there's something out there for scions too.

Kanluwen wrote:At most, I'd give them some kind of stratagem that lets you make a unit per stratagem used.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are their own thing entirely. Just like Death Korps Grenadiers, Cadian Kasrkin, and Catachan Devils.

Yes, but Scions are kind of the follow up to them. I'd say maybe instead of strategem, give the option of Astra Militarum or Inquisitorial, the former giving access to Auxilia as normal, and the later removing Auxilia (minus Valkyrie perhaps) and replacing them with Inquisitorial units. Trades access to Ogryn, Commissars, Bullgryn, and Ratlings and get Acolytes, Daemonhosts, and Jokaro in exchange.

Seems fair to me, but I might simply be salty still that Inquisition got gutted so hard since Daemonhunters was my first codex.

dominuschao wrote:Outsider with a bunch of unbuilt stuff here. Anyway if we're wish listing I would enjoy a combat option. Scions can't be competitive without a more durable or glass hammer assault option in this edition. It would be a new unexplored direction in a faction without any such options and reduce the need for souping. Admech pulls this off in multiple ways including the excellent serebys raiders. Sisters do too. I'm sure there's something out there for scions too.

I'd personally rather not have dedicated Scion melee units. As Kan said they are more ranged specialists / special forces. I can see maybe giving them 2 attacks base and giving their officers some melee centered orders so that they can act as bully units, but a full fledged melee unit seems off for them.

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, what use is a mass 18" S3 AP2 D1 army these days when everything is T5+ 3W and hits like a ton of bricks at 24"?

I really think with the way NuMarines are shaping up, things like Scions and any S3 armies are basically pointless. Unless you are running all Mech, even then still have the same problems. No if you made the Hellguns S4, AP1 D2, and standard las S4 AP 0 D1, you'd get something for the return. But We are now in the edition of Elite Deathstar armies. Two shots at 9" of S3 doesn't cut mustard anymore. Hell, it's not even good against Orks anymore.

If everything is T5+ then S3 isn't that big deal and S4 isn't that useful. You still wound on 5+

If everything is T5 or T8+. Against T6 and T7, S3 is only half as effective as an otherwise identical S4 weapon.

kurhanik wrote:

Yes, but Scions are kind of the follow up to them. I'd say maybe instead of strategem, give the option of Astra Militarum or Inquisitorial, the former giving access to Auxilia as normal, and the later removing Auxilia (minus Valkyrie perhaps) and replacing them with Inquisitorial units. Trades access to Ogryn, Commissars, Bullgryn, and Ratlings and get Acolytes, Daemonhosts, and Jokaro in exchange.

Seems fair to me, but I might simply be salty still that Inquisition got gutted so hard since Daemonhunters was my first codex.

I genuinely don't know why people think Scions are a "follow up" to them. Is it just because they're Stormtroopers? Because I called out the units I did(Kasrkin and Grenadiers) because they had the same statlines as Stormtroopers but were explicitly different.

Because it's important to note that Inquisitorial Stormtroopers via Daemonhunters were still different to the Stormtroopers units we had in Guard at the time. Acolytes, IMO, do a fair impersonation of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers for the time being...but the concept is a mess no matter what with the Inquisition these days.

The closest thing I want, personally, for an acknowledgement of Inquisition in my Guard book is something that lets a unit become 'Inquisitorial veterans' for lack of a better term. They might have been part of an army group grabbed up by an Inquisitor for a mission or something like that...but once you're close enough in an Inquisitor's orbit to be acknowledged as 'Inquisitorial anything'? You're operating on a whole different level.

Dunno if that last statement makes much sense to you but it feels like if we do Inquisition as their own book in the future again? It's more likely to get something like what we've seen in the Marines book, where certain units are mentioned as not being able to get taken.

I'd personally rather not have dedicated Scion melee units. As Kan said they are more ranged specialists / special forces. I can see maybe giving them 2 attacks base and giving their officers some melee centered orders so that they can act as bully units, but a full fledged melee unit seems off for them.

The mention of Serberys Raiders makes me do a "wut". They're a sniper unit that gets a stratagem allowing for them to 'bait' charges then retreat. They have sabers, so maybe that's where the confusion lies?
AdMech units for melee aren't exactly amazing though.

Real-talk, I think Guard and Tau need to be reexamined with regards to how they interact with melee armies. Overwatch alone shouldn't be the solution nor should alpha strikes. Being able to treat certain ranged weapons as pistols or being able to use their ranged profiles for melee might not be bad ones.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Scions as is are already an amazing troop for this edition. They don't need much to be a full fledged army.

They don't need much and that was kind of the point of this thread, a lot of people have started throwing some cool ideas around and others talking on how scions can interact with other parts of the Imperium.

When I wrote the original post I wanted to suggest a few small additions that add to the army but don't require too much work from GW

 Kanluwen wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

Yes, but Scions are kind of the follow up to them. I'd say maybe instead of strategem, give the option of Astra Militarum or Inquisitorial, the former giving access to Auxilia as normal, and the later removing Auxilia (minus Valkyrie perhaps) and replacing them with Inquisitorial units. Trades access to Ogryn, Commissars, Bullgryn, and Ratlings and get Acolytes, Daemonhosts, and Jokaro in exchange.

Seems fair to me, but I might simply be salty still that Inquisition got gutted so hard since Daemonhunters was my first codex.

I genuinely don't know why people think Scions are a "follow up" to them. Is it just because they're Stormtroopers? Because I called out the units I did(Kasrkin and Grenadiers) because they had the same statlines as Stormtroopers but were explicitly different.

Because it's important to note that Inquisitorial Stormtroopers via Daemonhunters were still different to the Stormtroopers units we had in Guard at the time. Acolytes, IMO, do a fair impersonation of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers for the time being...but the concept is a mess no matter what with the Inquisition these days.

The closest thing I want, personally, for an acknowledgement of Inquisition in my Guard book is something that lets a unit become 'Inquisitorial veterans' for lack of a better term. They might have been part of an army group grabbed up by an Inquisitor for a mission or something like that...but once you're close enough in an Inquisitor's orbit to be acknowledged as 'Inquisitorial anything'? You're operating on a whole different level.

Dunno if that last statement makes much sense to you but it feels like if we do Inquisition as their own book in the future again? It's more likely to get something like what we've seen in the Marines book, where certain units are mentioned as not being able to get taken.

Its in part because of them both being called Stormtroopers back in the day yes, with some of the models overlapping. That and the fluff that Tempestus Scions are from the Schola Progenium, which at least in older fluff Inquisitorial Stormtroopers were also from. Though yes you are correct that in Guard terms, the niche Stormtroopers filled could be filled by many things depending on the regiment, the most obvious being Kasrkin being Cadian elites.

And yeah, in the old codices, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers had no access to alternative deployments, and in exchange gained access to a wider pool of wargear to equip themselves with.

Though I suppose if Acolytes got better or more interesting rules, or at the very minimum were made a Troop choice, I'd find them more of a replacement. As is, Inquisition just feels like its...there. Though that is kind of veering off topic so I'll leave it at that.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are a product of an era where it was understood that the unit entry for something called 'Stormtroopers' could be Schola Progenium Stormtroopers, or could be local elite and well-equipped infantry like Kasrkin, or could be the grizzled veterans accompanying an Inquisitor, or anything else that fits the concept of elite human infantry with above-average weapons and armor.

Tempestus Scions are of the design style where their unit entry represents a specific type of unit with highly constrained equipment and transport options to reflect what Tempestus Scions, and not Cadian Kasrkin or Death Korps Grenadiers or Inquisitorial Stormtroopers have access to.

In that respect I can understand not folding Inquisitorial Stormtroopers under the Scion entry anymore- at the very least, it's weird for Inquisitors to be constrained to deploying their troops exclusively via deep strike or in Tauroxes, with no bolters allowed. The unit entry is too restrictive to effectively represent a generic archetype.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, no. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus were two separate elements of a faction that actually could function as a whole. Whatever James Hewitt or whatever ex-GW employees say, pretending that there was some kind of nefarious purpose there is disingenuous. You did not require buying both to field a full army.

I mean, yeah, you could field a full army of either one...

...because the designers made sure that they each worked as separate armies. Because that was the job

And it wasn't nefarious, it was just a cold, calculated business decision, made without regard for how it would impact The Rules, because at the time that was management's prerogative.

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly I'd rather see scions stay as the supplementary force they are, and for the actual guard regiments to see an update.

while guard tanks are generally....OK looking? the infantry at this point is just atrocious, among the worst looking plastic in the game behind only Guardians in my book. They've got all the sins of old GW heroic-scaling, terribly sparse kits option-wise (you need to buy from 3 different kits to get all the options available for a guard squad...) and as of right now you can literally only purchase models for 2 regiments.

GW has done some INCREDIBLE things with human-scaled models with Necromunda, GSC, and Admech.

I can't imagine that the market segment for a given guard regiment is so small that they couldn't bear a couple of dual-purpose kits with headswaps to represent the various regiments.

Picture: An all-in-one guard infantry box that includes 12 bodies, with two being optionally buildable as a heavy weapon team or as extra guardsmen so that you can build a platcom/command squad models and still have a guardsman squad.

Each box comes with 2 sets of heads to represent 2 regiments. You've got:

-Standard Uniform Guard: Cadians and Valhallans

-Greatcoat Guard: Mordians and Steel Legion

-Deathworld Guard: Tallarn and Catachan

-Noble Guard: Vostroyans and new GEQ unit for Knight Houses!

You don't need different boxes for the short coat guard or long coat guard if you cut the kit the same way as the present kit. You just need different leg parts.



You could go with a kit that has:
10 torsos, flat cut right below the waistbelt
10 short coat legs
10 long coat legs
10 lasgun arm pairs
1 Chainsword/Laspistol arm pair
1 Plasgun arm pair
1 Grenade Launcher arm pair
1 Flamer arm pair
1 Meltagun arm pair
1 Boltgun arm pair

If you make them hold their special weapons like normal guns instead of by a handle sticking off the side, you could even just have 10 left arms and right arms for 10 lasguns and 1 each special weapon.




As for scions, I think they're fine as is. I'd like the Command Squad have some changed options [so that they stop being special weapons teams] and of the Tempestor Prime's unit, and the same for regular command squads and Platoon/Company Commanders.

I would also like to see the stormtrooper units be able to become <REGIMENT>, since Cadians have Kasrkin and the Death Korps has Grenadiers, both of which are Stormtroopers that are part of their regiments.

As for potential new things for the stormtroopers, I think I'd like to see stuff that builds into them supporting a main IG army as special forces units. Explosives access, and maybe light wheeled high mobility vehicles like the Tauros/Tauros Venator. Otherwise, I think they just need rules that work for them instead of against them [up close deep strike seems pretty obvious to me]. Stratagems seem ideal for them.



Also, randomly, the more I think about, the more I want assault engineer platoons for the regular guard. Like guys with steel chestplates, laser SMG's, and satchel charges/bangalores; that would be ******* awesome.

 lagoon83 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, no. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus were two separate elements of a faction that actually could function as a whole. Whatever James Hewitt or whatever ex-GW employees say, pretending that there was some kind of nefarious purpose there is disingenuous. You did not require buying both to field a full army.

I mean, yeah, you could field a full army of either one...

...because the designers made sure that they each worked as separate armies. Because that was the job

And it wasn't nefarious, it was just a cold, calculated business decision, made without regard for how it would impact The Rules, because at the time that was management's prerogative.

Which was the point I was attempting to make...people have a habit of trying to twist the comments about the design into something nefarious rather than just "books were meant to standalone".

I have had some luck with running a brigade by using masters of the fleet and command squads for elite, forgeworld fighters in fast attack and tarantula turrets in heavy. It isn't perfect but it is pretty fun and fluffy for a drop force. Could be worth looking into if you are ok with some converting or just spending a whole lot of money on those forgeworld flyers.

Honestly I think I'd like to see just one more scion kit and that's for heavy weapons. Other than that just let their rules work with valkyries and a platoon commander type character and that's pretty much it

Oh and separate medic and the banner bearer from the command company but that's not a scion only problem

10 short coat legs
10 long coat legs

I don't see this happening. Some kits have extra torsos (or extra torso halves), as vehicles in particular kick up optional gunners, but I can't think of a single GW kit that gives extra legs. For the entire span of plastic kits, afaik.

It honestly seems to be purposeful, as extra arms happen all the time, and extra heads a fair bit, but they don't want people building spare models from the base up, so legs are verboten.

I think there's actually a few, but they are exceedingly rare...but in any regards, if they are to do long coats? It would be attached to the torso, not the legs.

 catbarf wrote:

kurhanik wrote:
-A light vehicle or two that can move fast, possibly be deep striked, and can load a heavy weapon or two. Something designed to zoom around the board from cover to cover and try to light up an enemy unit. For lack of a better thought, think like the Warthog in Halo, a jeep that can either carry 5 guys, a heavy machine gun, or a rocket launcher.

That actually existed for the Elysians, in the form of the Tauros and Tauros Venator buggies.




With Elysians unfortunately gone now, I'd be happy to see their niche of lightweight rapid insertion adopted by Scions.

Not only did I love these models, my favorite thing about them is that they were made to be carried into combat by Valkyrie Sky Talons, and a dude with a thing for magnets could make a really cinematic special scenario.

As for the absence of Elysians from the FW website and Compendium, it's my hope this means that when the guard get redone, they will be a glorious new plastic regiment. Yeah, I'm a dreamer. But consider that almost every flyer in GW's range (sorry- they're aircraft now) started as a resin kit from FW. Units can and do transition. I would say the same for a lot of the units that are missing from the FW compendium- everyone seems to think ALL of them are going to Legends; to be sure, the Lion's share are. But I suspect GW has their eyes on a few.

As for Scions: I'd like an upgrade sprue (even an FW one) to make a dedicated regiment to be Inquisitorial Acolytes; I don't even need rules (though that would be better- they could be an Inquisition troop choice instead of being Acolytes). And yes, I know this is absolutely a pipe dream, but you asked what I wanted; the heart wants what it wants, regardless of how likely it is that the dream will come true.

PenitentJake wrote:
...Units can and do transition...

Off the top of my head? The Valkyrie and the 30k Marine plastics. That's it. GW makes different plastic units that make the FW stuff redundant, they don't make plastic kits of FW units.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Slayer6 wrote:
I'd delete all the finicky changes, and move the Tempestus Scion Squads back to the Elites slot (and swap Veterans back to Troops), move Tempestor Primes to take up an Elites slot, add their Command Squads as a free include for each Tempestor Prime in the army. Lose the PA regiments, just keep it back to basics with the Stormtroopers doctrine and we should be sweet, maybe add the old Clarion-Vox net rule from 7E?

Nailed it - for bonus points, revert the name change so they return to being the Stormtroopers they truly are.

Will also accept the in-universe nicknames of "Glory Boys" or "Toy Soldiers" instead.

Technically they could rename the HotShot Lasguns to Hellguns, and yes, take their original Stormtroopers name. Hell, it would be funny if they got +6" to their Hellguns and regained the Infiltrate ability... That range increase would also mean that the Iotan Dragons would end up with 30" rifles...

 argonak wrote:
The main thing I want for scions I've wanted since I started playing 8th edition with them.

REMOVE DEEP STRIKE FROM THEIR BASE STATLINE.

Scions should pay extra for their deep strike, so that you're not wasting that upgrade when you run them as an army, because you won't be able to put all of them into deep strike.

How often do you use Krak Grenades? Every model in the army has them, yet only one can be used per unit per turn (unless you use the Grenadiers stratagem) Should they be removed too?

Also they are already paying for their Deep Strike during the deployment with CP...

 Slayer6 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Slayer6 wrote:
I'd delete all the finicky changes, and move the Tempestus Scion Squads back to the Elites slot (and swap Veterans back to Troops), move Tempestor Primes to take up an Elites slot, add their Command Squads as a free include for each Tempestor Prime in the army. Lose the PA regiments, just keep it back to basics with the Stormtroopers doctrine and we should be sweet, maybe add the old Clarion-Vox net rule from 7E?

Nailed it - for bonus points, revert the name change so they return to being the Stormtroopers they truly are.

Will also accept the in-universe nicknames of "Glory Boys" or "Toy Soldiers" instead.

Technically they could rename the HotShot Lasguns to Hellguns, and yes, take their original Stormtroopers name. Hell, it would be funny if they got +6" to their Hellguns and regained the Infiltrate ability... That range increase would also mean that the Iotan Dragons would end up with 30" rifles...

 argonak wrote:
The main thing I want for scions I've wanted since I started playing 8th edition with them.

REMOVE DEEP STRIKE FROM THEIR BASE STATLINE.

Scions should pay extra for their deep strike, so that you're not wasting that upgrade when you run them as an army, because you won't be able to put all of them into deep strike.

How often do you use Krak Grenades? Every model in the army has them, yet only one can be used per unit per turn (unless you use the Grenadiers stratagem) Should they be removed too?

Also they are already paying for their Deep Strike during the deployment with CP...

My understanding is that Scions don't have to pay CP for their deep strike as its a unit sheet feature. Same as terminators.

The reason I want it removed from them is so that base scions can be cheaper. If I have to hoof it with half my scion army, why do i have to pay for their grav chutes? If they're riding in valkyiers, don't make me pay for grav chutes.

They should be setup like reivers. Why do scions even have grav chutes anyway, its not on the model.