I don’t think marines should have two wounds

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**Insectum7**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Marines and Primaris should have stuck at 1W base, and you could have given Primaris T5.

Marines should not be 2W when Necrons and Orks are 1W.

The problem is you're still thinking in the scope of a game that didn't have a damage stat for weapons.

Not at all, 2nd edition had a damage stat.

In 2nd ed, a Heavy Bolter did D4, a Krak missile D10 and a Multimelta 2D12.

And Marines had 1w and it was fine.

**tneva82**

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Doubling the survivability of your unit should cost more than one or two points. That means marines are even more undercosted.

It does not doubie your survivability. In aos it would. 40k works differently

**H.B.M.C.**

Insectum7 wrote:
And Marines had 1w and it was fine.

It certainly was not fine. Regular Bolter Marines might as well have not existed in 2nd Ed. Their much vaunted 3+ save didn't mean anything because every man and his dog had at least a -1 Save Mod. Only Terminators could stand up to incoming fire.

It's why I liked the AP system from 3rd-7th, however simplistic it was or how badly it scaled. At least Marines got to take their save in 3rd-7th. Now with all the plussing and minusing it's a miracle whenever they ever get to take a 3+ save.

**Insectum7**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
And Marines had 1w and it was fine.
It certainly was not fine. Regular Bolter Marines might as well have not existed in 2nd Ed. Their much vaunted 3+ save didn't mean anything because every man and his dog had at least a -1 Save Mod. Only Terminators could stand up to incoming fire.

It's why I liked the AP system from 3rd-7th, however simplistic it was or how badly it scaled. At least Marines got to take their save in 3rd-7th. Now with all the plussing and minusing it's a miracle whenever they ever get to take a 3+ save.

Sure, the save mods were higher, but so were the hit mods. When Guardsmen only hit you in a 6+ because you're in heavy cover you wind up living longer anyways. Also, only marines could rapid fire. Morale was harsher on non-marines. Marines were resilient against gas and blinding effects. Marines had targeters on their heavy weapons. Marines had lots of advantages to make them feel elite.

Lots of ways that don't exist anymore. So "two wounds cuz I red it in du BL novel. . ." Is what we have instead.

**Argive**

I would juts like to interject that with Heavy intercessors beign trops arent we really saying its actualy T5 and 3W...

But if we really want to go down the whole paying pts for a privelage..

A 2w Tac marine is 18pts.

An Eldar ranger is 15.. yeah..

And the biggest problem of all is marines not peying for their traits/sub faction snowlfake or doctrines. And its not just marines...

The pooch has really been screwed here... And its not a marine only problem. The new way of doing pts sucks... You point a gun at 5 pts but then that same gun is 2x as effective if the model is Yellow and has rule xyz.. its dumb. Its been bugging me ever since I got back into 40k during 8th.

**H.B.M.C.**

Argive wrote:
A 2w Tac marine is 18pts.

An Eldar ranger is 15.. yeah..

Was the Eldar Ranger overpriced prior to the change to Marines?

**tneva82**

Insectum7 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
And Marines had 1w and it was fine.
It certainly was not fine. Regular Bolter Marines might as well have not existed in 2nd Ed. Their much vaunted 3+ save didn't mean anything because every man and his dog had at least a -1 Save Mod. Only Terminators could stand up to incoming fire.

It's why I liked the AP system from 3rd-7th, however simplistic it was or how badly it scaled. At least Marines got to take their save in 3rd-7th. Now with all the plussing and minusing it's a miracle whenever they ever get to take a 3+ save.
Sure, the save mods were higher, but so were the hit mods. When Guardsmen only hit you in a 6+ because you're in heavy cover you wind up living longer anyways. Also, only marines could rapid fire. Morale was harsher on non-marines. Marines were resilient against gas and blinding effects. Marines had targeters on their heavy weapons. Marines had lots of advantages to make them feel elite.

Lots of ways that don't exist anymore. So "two wounds cuz I red it in du BL novel. . ." Is what we have instead.

Uh you just reinforced his point. "hit modifiers were higher!". Well that was related to armour save...how? How did that help marines over lots of 6+ save guys? Hit modifier was bigger impact than power armour.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Marines died very fast since 6th edition at least, that's when I started the game. The different AP system in 8th made their armor at least better against many weapons that would kill them outright before, but it became also worse against others. 8th overall was a pretty killy edition and with the weapon changes it seems like 9th might be, too. They need to tune the defense so that you have models left on the table by turn 3.
Personally I hope it's not just Marines that get more wounds.I'd like to see Aspect warriors get a 2nd wound as well. I would have said Necrons, too, but with their new RP they got a different way to be tough.

**Ice_can**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
tulun wrote:
It's that they aren't paying enough points for it.
Didn't basic Marines get a price increase at the start of 9th, and then a further one with this Codex?

Stop being disingenuous, Marine infantry went up 2 points.
Orks, Eldar, Tau, Admech infantry also went up 2 points

If your being generous to marines that's even increases.
If your being more objective
Marines +15% cost to tac marines
Everyone else + 22% cost to their infantry

If you look at it as 18 points 2w vrs 13 points 1w yeah the 38% increase for a second wound is fairer but that if thats the comparison that means admech & xeno infantry is 22% overcosted in 9th.

**tneva82**

Yes. And now marines went up again when they got extra wound(which doesn't even double the survivability. As it is immortals got bigger durability boost than marines got with their 2nd wound)

**Ice_can**

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. And now marines went up again when they got extra wound(which doesn't even double the survivability. As it is immortals got bigger durability boost than marines got with their 2nd wound)

A second wound for 38% increase in points sounds about right.
The issue is that means everyone else who got a points increases at the start of 9th is overcosted.

TLDR marines are out of balance with the rest of the game.

**aphyon**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Any marines. It seems really unbalanced and I am a marine player. Intercessors should be one wound and they’re still under costed for what they do.

I agree, but then again i don't think 8th or 9th edition should exist either(well mabey 8th because it could have been the template for epic 40K 2.0..or maybe the 8th ed version of apocalypse) formations broke 7th edition, 8th edition turned 40K into a game that isn't 40K and 9th doubled down on it.

It's up to you and your local game group to make it work for you, as others have pointed out how they approach the problem in this topic. i't isn't like some GW arbite is going to come and force you to play a certain way.

They need to tune the defense so that you have models left on the table by turn 3.

They already did with the new scoring system. it makes for a terrible game mechanic. if you score enough points to lock in the win by turn 3 in 9th, what does it matter if you have almost nothing left by the end of turn 3?

**Blackie**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Any marines. It seems really unbalanced and I am a marine player. Intercessors should be one wound and they’re still under costed for what they do.

Ork boys don’t get two wounds for being superhuman brutes and Sisters of Battle don’t get an extra wound for wearing power armour. So I don’t really get the reasoning. An extra foot shouldn’t double your wounds and they aren’t even using Primaris as an excuse anymore. They got toughness 4 for the superhuman physiology and a 3 up save for the armour. That was in line with every other faction and perfectly reasonable.

Doubling the survivability of your unit should cost more than one or two points. That means marines are even more undercosted.

It will render a lot of one damage weapons like massed bolters or shooters worthless against marines. You’re only going to kill half as many marines as you were before.

It puts “elite” armies like Eldar or Sisters of Battle in a weird place with the chafe wound profile. Making 2 wound a standard across most armies will hurt the game. Any boost to weapon profiles to kill marines means you’ll just mow down these lesser factions.

I agree about everything you said, 2W marines and the entire primaris line is something that wasn't needed at all. GW always wants to sell marines though, and with 100000+ existing kits at some point they did run out of options, so releasing a new line of models was the only way to keep pushing the poster boys. Makes sense, but it doesn't mean it's also fair.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Marines died very fast since 6th edition at least, that's when I started the game. The different AP system in 8th made their armor at least better against many weapons that would kill them outright before, but it became also worse against others. 8th overall was a pretty killy edition and with the weapon changes it seems like 9th might be, too. They need to tune the defense so that you have models left on the table by turn 3.
Personally I hope it's not just Marines that get more wounds.I'd like to see Aspect warriors get a 2nd wound as well. I would have said Necrons, too, but with their new RP they got a different way to be tough.

They died too fast because rate of fire became insane in 6-7th edition. They worked well before in 3rd-5th, with the same 6th edition AP system. I'd rather halve all the existing firepower and keep them 1W than releasing units with loads of shots, introducing access to re-rolls and double tap, and upgrading infantries to 2,3 or 4 W. Less dice rolling would be nice.

**vipoid**

Oh, something else occurs to me - I think another issue might be how cover saves work at the moment.

I realise that people didn't like Marines getting little benefit from cover against most weapons in the old rules. However, I think the new rules have skewed things far too much in their favour. So we now have this awkward mechanic where a lot of units that *should* want cover actually get little to no benefit from it because their base saves are relatively low. Meanwhile, Marines in cover basically become Terminators.

The issue is that makes AP0 weapons (including most basic weapons) even less effective, and pushes the game even further towards needing AP-1/AP-2 minimum for any weapon to be worth the paper its printed on.

Obviously this isn't a specific issue with Marines getting an extra wound. Rather, it's something that I think really should have been addressed before that happened.

JNAProductions wrote:
Assault Cannons actually have twice as many shots as Heavy Bolters.

I agree with the thrust of your argument, but that specific example might not be the best one.

Oh, do they? I must have missed them getting an extra 2 shots.

Though in that case I'm even more puzzled by the OP's comparison, as they're still objectively better than Heavy Bolters in that case.

**the_scotsman**

Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Marines and Primaris should have stuck at 1W base, and you could have given Primaris T5.

Marines should not be 2W when Necrons and Orks are 1W.

The problem is you're still thinking in the scope of a game that didn't have a damage stat for weapons.
Not at all, 2nd edition had a damage stat.

In 2nd ed, a Heavy Bolter did D4, a Krak missile D10 and a Multimelta 2D12.

And Marines had 1w and it was fine.

The game has a lot of avenues of durability. The relationship between marines and necrons with a functional res protocols is fine.

A 17ppm (?) Necron immortal at T5 if it gets res protocols is slightly more durable than a W2 tactical against most D1 weapon statlines, except for S2, S3, and S10 (which AFAIK does not exist at D1). And that's with no buffs, which defensively are more common for the necron than the space marine, and with new ATSKNF, the space marine is now more likely to be impacted at least somewhat by morale thanks to base ld8 vs base ld10.

not every durable thing needs to be high toughness AND high wounds AND have a good invuln AND have a good armor, things can be tough in different ways requiring different weapons to target them.

**Platuan4th**

Insectum7 wrote:
Marines and Primaris should have stuck at 1W base, and you could have given Primaris T5.

Marines should not be 2W when Necrons and Orks are 1W.

Immortals and Warriors being 1W is better than 2W because of how RP works now.

**Backfire**

All infantry should be 1W outside of very few 'superheavy' infantry models like Ogryns, Tyranid Warriors, Ork Nobz etc. Wound bookkeeping became too laborous already in the 8th.

**AdmiralHalsey**

Slayer6 wrote:
When a basic Intercessor costs 1 point less than a Scion packing a Plasmagun, that can oneshot two of them on the drop very reliably... You know they aren't doing so well... I would have given Marines 1W and a built-in base 6++ that could be enhanced by other additions - such as Terminator Armor, or Storm Shields. Hell, change the rules around to:

The Black Carapace:
Models with this rule have a 6++. This can be modified.

Terminator Armor:
2+ save and also improves Invulnerable Saves by 1.

Combat Shield:
Improves Invulnerable Saves by 1.

Storm Shield:
Improves both Armor and Invulnerable saves by 1.

Combine them all, and your current Storm Shield Terminators come into play. 2+/4++

Combat Shield on a model results in a 5++

Basic Space Marine units have a 6++.

Hell, if needed add a clause where Invulnerable saves cannot be improved past a 3++.

Now. I'm going to go back to trying to envisage just how an Imperial Guard Shotgun can kill a Warlord Titan... I haven't had much luck so far...

An Intercessor can kill two Scions pretty easily too you know.
And he can do it at a greater range, and in melee too. And if he's got some nifty Feel no Pain Rule, which he can often get, the Scions don't kill him nearly so reliably.
Also the Scion might blow himself up, the Intercessor never will.

**Karol**

Backfire wrote:
All infantry should be 1W outside of very few 'superheavy' infantry models like Ogryns, Tyranid Warriors, Ork Nobz etc. Wound bookkeeping became too laborous already in the 8th.

Termintors with 1W would be really bad, like really realy bad. They would have to cost like 20pts max.

**the_scotsman**

Also, ork nobz (14ppm?) being OK at 2w but marines (traditionally 15ppm) not being OK at 2w is a fun hot take.

"thing was like this way before! So I'm not mad at thing! NEW thing different! Different bad!"

**H.B.M.C.**

Backfire wrote:
All infantry should be 1W outside of very few 'superheavy' infantry models like Ogryns, Tyranid Warriors, Ork Nobz etc.

Why? And the answer can't just be "bookkeeping".

Backfire wrote:
Wound bookkeeping became too laborous already in the 8th.

It's that hard to remember that one model in the unit has a wound less than the rest of them? That hard to put a small dice next to the unit, or something to remind that there's a wound?

**AdmiralHalsey**

Fun Fact,

Terminators used to have one wound and they did just fine.

**vipoid**

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Fun Fact,

Terminators used to have one wound and they did just fine.

They were okay in 5th. Not sure they did so well in 6th/7th.

**Quasistellar**

Pfft, I think eldar should have T8 and 3+ invuln across all their troops because their armor is ancient and amazing and their reflexes are so keen.

I think Marines should have 1 wound, T4, and a 6+ save because they're just humans who have been pumped up (hense the T4 and 6+ save instead of none at all).

Those arguments are both really, really stupid and smack of sour grapes. I applaud GW for finally exploring design space that has existed for quite some time by at the same time making Marines tougher and more elite.

Now, they need to use that little grey muscle in their head to do the same thing for vehicles across all of 40k. It's silly that they refuse to give things higher toughness, more wounds, or better saves than they do. They can always limit the number of vehicles you can take with detachments or whatever to compensate for making them actually tough and being vulnerable to the CORRECT weapons.

**Platuan4th**

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Fun Fact,

Terminators used to have one wound and they did just fine.

You clearly didn't play 3rd ed before they received the free invulnerable save and before Storm Shields could be used against shooting.

**Slayer-Fan123**

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Fun Fact,

Terminators used to have one wound and they did just fine.

This is a more delusional statement than Insectums...

**the_scotsman**

vipoid wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Fun Fact,

Terminators used to have one wound and they did just fine.

They were okay in 5th. Not sure they did so well in 6th/7th.

i seem to recall every time someone used terminators against me in 5th I was just like "oh, great! someone spent a bunch of points on a glorified drop pod tactical squad that I can just ignore or overwhelm with cheap firepower!"

**Sim-Life**

vipoid wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Fun Fact,

Terminators used to have one wound and they did just fine.

They were okay in 5th. Not sure they did so well in 6th/7th.

Maybe he meant 2nd Ed where they had a 3+ save on 2d6.

**Insectum7**

tneva82 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
And Marines had 1w and it was fine.
It certainly was not fine. Regular Bolter Marines might as well have not existed in 2nd Ed. Their much vaunted 3+ save didn't mean anything because every man and his dog had at least a -1 Save Mod. Only Terminators could stand up to incoming fire.

It's why I liked the AP system from 3rd-7th, however simplistic it was or how badly it scaled. At least Marines got to take their save in 3rd-7th. Now with all the plussing and minusing it's a miracle whenever they ever get to take a 3+ save.
Sure, the save mods were higher, but so were the hit mods. When Guardsmen only hit you in a 6+ because you're in heavy cover you wind up living longer anyways. Also, only marines could rapid fire. Morale was harsher on non-marines. Marines were resilient against gas and blinding effects. Marines had targeters on their heavy weapons. Marines had lots of advantages to make them feel elite.

Lots of ways that don't exist anymore. So "two wounds cuz I red it in du BL novel. . ." Is what we have instead.

Uh you just reinforced his point. "hit modifiers were higher!". Well that was related to armour save...how? How did that help marines over lots of 6+ save guys? Hit modifier was bigger impact than power armour.

Because there was more to durability and "eliteness" than the armor. Duh.

With a minus 2 to hit, Space Marines hit twice as often as Guardsmen, 3 Times as often with a heavy weapon, and had waaay better morale rules. So in a sustained fight Marines had a larger advantage.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Fun Fact,

Terminators used to have one wound and they did just fine.

You clearly didn't play 3rd ed before they received the free invulnerable save and before Storm Shields could be used against shooting.

And after they got those abilities? You know, when they were way better but still had 1W.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Marines and Primaris should have stuck at 1W base, and you could have given Primaris T5.

Marines should not be 2W when Necrons and Orks are 1W.

Immortals and Warriors being 1W is better than 2W because of how RP works now.

It's still too easy to drop a Necron with small arms ove a Marine, imo.

**the_scotsman**

Unless the small arms you are talking about are specifically lasguns, it's easier to kill a marine than a necron immortal.