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2020/10/15 00:12:21
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Dark Eldar weren't really a good army for most players and games in general anyway with that early codex. Not sure how you're even proving a point here.
Dark Eldar were fantastic against Marines in that era. They were *awful* in a larger meta-sense, but I actually never beat Dark Eldar in 4E with my CSM's, they were really good at engaging and tying up "elite" armies, the smaller the model count and more exotically armed the better (they made mockeries of many Nidzilla lists that just ran their bare minimum 2 Troops back then), and conversly, the weenier and more mundanely armed, the worse it went for the Dark Eldar.
And the point was that Wyches were at one point a badass CC unit capable of taking on Marines, and it's the SM's that have changed significantly more than the Wyches.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
0059/10/15 00:27:01
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
What do you mean Necrons were getting worse and worse? Did you pay attention to Immortals and Warriors AT ALL with the new Necron codex? Wyches were also always gak vs Marines, so somehow this is shocking for you?
Also Aspect Warriors can't have gotten worse than Marines since we literally don't have a codex yet, or did you already forget how Marines got worse each time a new Eldar codex was released LOL
Basically nothing you said is true.
Do you think Necron Warriors and Immortals are tougher vs. Marines than they were 15 years ago?
Same for Aspect Warriors, Wyches, etc. in terms of a combination of resilience and striking power.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When I played against DE back in the day, I recall Wyches getting a 4++ in CC, hitting first with a high initiative, and Marines only having one attack back unless they charged, which was rare.
How does that compare to now?
They've fluctuated. Immortals are definitely in a better spot due to the new point cost for the same save and T5 they had in the 3rd edition codex AND being troops. The RP they currently have is more powerful than 3-5 + 8th, and about the same to less powerful than the 7th edition iteration. Being tougher to Marines though, absolutely compared to the disaster of the 8th iteration. The current RP + T5 is a god send, especially with the revamped weapons too.
Like. . . Just No. Like laughably No. Like pants-on-head No.
Immortals were 28 points a pop in 3rd against the Marine 15 and they were 100% worth it, being arguably the best infatry in the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/15 00:27:56
Lorewise they are, much more badass than basic marine.
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2020/10/15 02:24:49
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Dark Eldar weren't really a good army for most players and games in general anyway with that early codex. Not sure how you're even proving a point here.
Dark Eldar were fantastic against Marines in that era. They were *awful* in a larger meta-sense, but I actually never beat Dark Eldar in 4E with my CSM's, they were really good at engaging and tying up "elite" armies, the smaller the model count and more exotically armed the better (they made mockeries of many Nidzilla lists that just ran their bare minimum 2 Troops back then), and conversly, the weenier and more mundanely armed, the worse it went for the Dark Eldar.
And the point was that Wyches were at one point a badass CC unit capable of taking on Marines, and it's the SM's that have changed significantly more than the Wyches.
So basically your opponent was tailored against you.
What do you mean Necrons were getting worse and worse? Did you pay attention to Immortals and Warriors AT ALL with the new Necron codex? Wyches were also always gak vs Marines, so somehow this is shocking for you?
Also Aspect Warriors can't have gotten worse than Marines since we literally don't have a codex yet, or did you already forget how Marines got worse each time a new Eldar codex was released LOL
Basically nothing you said is true.
Do you think Necron Warriors and Immortals are tougher vs. Marines than they were 15 years ago?
Same for Aspect Warriors, Wyches, etc. in terms of a combination of resilience and striking power.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When I played against DE back in the day, I recall Wyches getting a 4++ in CC, hitting first with a high initiative, and Marines only having one attack back unless they charged, which was rare.
How does that compare to now?
They've fluctuated. Immortals are definitely in a better spot due to the new point cost for the same save and T5 they had in the 3rd edition codex AND being troops. The RP they currently have is more powerful than 3-5 + 8th, and about the same to less powerful than the 7th edition iteration. Being tougher to Marines though, absolutely compared to the disaster of the 8th iteration. The current RP + T5 is a god send, especially with the revamped weapons too.
Like. . . Just No. Like laughably No. Like pants-on-head No.
Immortals were 28 points a pop in 3rd against the Marine 15 and they were 100% worth it, being arguably the best infatry in the game.
You're really not disproving my point by just shouting "no" and hoping your echo chamber will back you up.
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/10/15 02:40:13
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
In 3.5Ed Wyches were 13ppm (with Wych weapons) to Marines' 15ppm. They had the same WS, but their Wych weapons forced anyone below S6 to halve their WS for attacks against the Wyches, and denied the attack bonus for having a pistol+CCW. In melee they were I6 and had a 4+ invuln, plus drugs, which gave them 12" charge, +1WS, +1S, ASF, re-roll all misses, or +1A.
So on the charge they had 3 (potentially 4) attacks, hit first, and most infantry were only getting one attack back, with power weapons not mattering thanks to the invuln. Man-for-man (not just point-for-point!) they were better than Marines in melee, and that's in an edition where Dark Eldar were generally regarded as weak.
But yeah I guess when your perspective comes from an edition where even the elites of other armies are now crap compared to you basic infantry, of course they don't seem like badass CC units. Go fething figure.
Dark Eldar weren't really a good army for most players and games in general anyway with that early codex. Not sure how you're even proving a point here.
Dark Eldar were fantastic against Marines in that era. They were *awful* in a larger meta-sense, but I actually never beat Dark Eldar in 4E with my CSM's, they were really good at engaging and tying up "elite" armies, the smaller the model count and more exotically armed the better (they made mockeries of many Nidzilla lists that just ran their bare minimum 2 Troops back then), and conversly, the weenier and more mundanely armed, the worse it went for the Dark Eldar.
And the point was that Wyches were at one point a badass CC unit capable of taking on Marines, and it's the SM's that have changed significantly more than the Wyches.
So basically your opponent was tailored against you.
No...that's just how the army worked, kinda always perversly has been, their abilities were oriented around ignoring toughness, not caring about armor (either for themselves or for their squad special weapons), and degrading enemy capabilities. Well, against big powerful elite units, that's great. That was a frustrating thing for Marines to fight. Those abilities matter a lot less when fighting stuff like Guardsmen, who in turn find many weapons that are often less effective against elite armies are able to work wonderfully well against DE not only in anti-infantry but also anti-tank roles (such as multilasers, grenade launchers, heavy bolters, and autocannon). GW's just inflated the capabilities of Marines to the extent that Wyches don't work anymore in that role.
Keep in mind, at this point we've gone from "Wyches aren't some badass CC unit though." to "Dark Eldar weren't really a good army for most players and games in general anyway" and now to "So basically your opponent was tailored against you. " in trying to explain away why Wyches, a unit that once were capable of engaging Marines successfully in CC, can't now.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2020/10/15 02:43:43
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
Genestealers need a buff quite independantly of Marines IMHO. the fluff for GS's describes them "Tearing through even terminator armor like it was tissue paper" but... they can't do that, at least not reliably. I'd honestly buff Gene stealer rending claws (I'd proably call them something differant to avoid buffing other units with them) a straight up -4 AP instead of that silly "only on a 6" stuff that would mean basicly they're tearing apart space marine armor like it's not even there, and make terminators reliant on their invul save. that would make GS's TERRIFYING in close combat as they'd outright ignore armor.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/10/15 02:57:54
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
Genestealers need a buff quite independantly of Marines IMHO. the fluff for GS's describes them "Tearing through even terminator armor like it was tissue paper" but... they can't do that, at least not reliably. I'd honestly buff Gene stealer rending claws (I'd proably call them something differant to avoid buffing other units with them) a straight up -4 AP instead of that silly "only on a 6" stuff that would mean basicly they're tearing apart space marine armor like it's not even there, and make terminators reliant on their invul save. that would make GS's TERRIFYING in close combat as they'd outright ignore armor.
Because the game sure needs to be MORE lethal.
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2020/10/15 03:05:31
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
Genestealers need a buff quite independantly of Marines IMHO. the fluff for GS's describes them "Tearing through even terminator armor like it was tissue paper" but... they can't do that, at least not reliably. I'd honestly buff Gene stealer rending claws (I'd proably call them something differant to avoid buffing other units with them) a straight up -4 AP instead of that silly "only on a 6" stuff that would mean basicly they're tearing apart space marine armor like it's not even there, and make terminators reliant on their invul save. that would make GS's TERRIFYING in close combat as they'd outright ignore armor.
Because the game sure needs to be MORE lethal.
And this is the point I was making like 5 pages ago. If marines get more durable then everyone else either needs to get more durable or they need to get more killy. And there we are. Increased lethality to keep up.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/15 03:07:30
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
Which is bad for the game IMO, but I'm sure you agree Lance. Primaris were the first mistake, buffing all other marines to that level makes sense but should not have been done in the first place.
Genestealers need a buff quite independantly of Marines IMHO. the fluff for GS's describes them "Tearing through even terminator armor like it was tissue paper" but... they can't do that, at least not reliably. I'd honestly buff Gene stealer rending claws (I'd proably call them something differant to avoid buffing other units with them) a straight up -4 AP instead of that silly "only on a 6" stuff that would mean basicly they're tearing apart space marine armor like it's not even there, and make terminators reliant on their invul save. that would make GS's TERRIFYING in close combat as they'd outright ignore armor.
Because the game sure needs to be MORE lethal.
And this is the point I was making like 5 pages ago. If marines get more durable then everyone else either needs to get more durable or they need to get more killy. And there we are. Increased lethality to keep up.
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
Genestealers need a buff quite independantly of Marines IMHO. the fluff for GS's describes them "Tearing through even terminator armor like it was tissue paper" but... they can't do that, at least not reliably. I'd honestly buff Gene stealer rending claws (I'd proably call them something differant to avoid buffing other units with them) a straight up -4 AP instead of that silly "only on a 6" stuff that would mean basicly they're tearing apart space marine armor like it's not even there, and make terminators reliant on their invul save. that would make GS's TERRIFYING in close combat as they'd outright ignore armor.
Because the game sure needs to be MORE lethal.
And this is the point I was making like 5 pages ago. If marines get more durable then everyone else either needs to get more durable or they need to get more killy. And there we are. Increased lethality to keep up.
Which is bad for the game IMO, but I'm sure you agree Lance. Primaris were the first mistake, buffing all other marines to that level makes sense but should not have been done in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 03:08:05
2020/10/15 03:12:35
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Funny how the conversation veered away from the fact that the Space Marine Basic troops choice is better at basically everything than everyone elses troops in their specialty....I wonder if Intercessors are better at ranged combat than Tau Firewarriors on a pt for pt basis as well.
20 Firewarriors = 180pts same as 9 Intercessors.
20 FW get 20 shots at 30' range S5. So against Intercessors thats 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds and 2.22 dmg, so 1 dead intercessor.
9 Intercessors get 18 shots at S4 -1AP at 30' range so thats 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds and 5.33 dead Tau.
Intercessors lose a bit more than 1 intercessor, call it 22-23pts
Tau lose 45+ pts.
Wow, so Intercessors are better at shooting than Tau, and as good as genestealers/ork boyz in CC. Amazing.
I actually think primaris is the solution. Scrap all old marines. Primaris is a clean slate with less units and and smaller cleaner slate of weapons. They can be costed correctly and act with a unified theme. SM work well as a primaris army. It's the rest of the old line on top of them thats muddying the water right now.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/15 03:15:32
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Lance845 wrote: I actually think primaris is the solution. Scrap all old marines. Primaris is a clean slate with less units and and smaller cleaner slate of weapons. They can be costed correctly and act with a unified theme. SM work well as a primaris army. It's the rest of the old line on top of them thats muddying the water right now.
Yep, definitely not the Eradicators disintegrating everyone's vehicles and heavy infantry while Aggressors mow down hordes of infantry and Intercessors out shoot Tau fire warriors and fight ork boyz and genestealers on an equal footing in CC. Totally those damn old marines that are the problem right now.
catbarf wrote: Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
To be fair, in Space Hulk it really doesn't make much sense for the marines to wear Terminator armor as it slows them down and reduces their ability to reposition in the tight areas while providing practically no protection against Rending Claws. Sometimes when I am playing as the Blood Angels, I think maybe it would have been better to just go in with loin cloths and combi-flamers.
2020/10/15 03:20:50
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Lance845 wrote: I actually think primaris is the solution. Scrap all old marines. Primaris is a clean slate with less units and and smaller cleaner slate of weapons. They can be costed correctly and act with a unified theme. SM work well as a primaris army. It's the rest of the old line on top of them thats muddying the water right now.
From this thread I assumed you thought this but I disagree personally. An army that can field this many models should not have them at 2 wounds and with this many kill power at both range and CC. Sure 3/4 attacks at S4 AP0 doesn't sound impressive until you compare to quite a few other armies out there and consider these same models are vastly superior at range at well.
2020/10/15 03:32:19
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Lance845 wrote: I actually think primaris is the solution. Scrap all old marines. Primaris is a clean slate with less units and and smaller cleaner slate of weapons. They can be costed correctly and act with a unified theme. SM work well as a primaris army. It's the rest of the old line on top of them thats muddying the water right now.
Yep, definitely not the Eradicators disintegrating everyone's vehicles and heavy infantry while Aggressors mow down hordes of infantry and Intercessors out shoot Tau fire warriors and fight ork boyz and genestealers on an equal footing in CC. Totally those damn old marines that are the problem right now.
Castozor wrote:
Lance845 wrote: I actually think primaris is the solution. Scrap all old marines. Primaris is a clean slate with less units and and smaller cleaner slate of weapons. They can be costed correctly and act with a unified theme. SM work well as a primaris army. It's the rest of the old line on top of them thats muddying the water right now.
From this thread I assumed you thought this but I disagree personally. An army that can field this many models should not have them at 2 wounds and with this many kill power at both range and CC. Sure 3/4 attacks at S4 AP0 doesn't sound impressive until you compare to quite a few other armies out there and consider these same models are vastly superior at range at well.
Thats why I said costed correctly.
Right now the marine dex is in this weird middle ground where they have to find ways to keep the old marines relevent for internal balance reasons which is both making old marines too powerful with extra wounds and making primaris too powerful by undercosting them. Once the options are stripped down to purely what the primaris can field you can get rid of all the not primaris auras and other bull gak and adjust their points up to where they should be.
I totally agree that marines are undercosted for what they do. But even when you look at the number of models in a unit it's obvious that primaris are meant to be a more elite version of SM. They start at 3 models a unit instead of 5. Their weapons are better. Gravis doesn't come with a invul save by default unlike terminators (which is a good thing). Primaris by themselves is a better concise army thats more in line with everyone elses breadth of options and WHEN COSTED CORRECTLY (important) can be a kind of middle ground between an actual average middle ground army and the truely elite armies like custodes and harelquinns.
But step 1 of getting there is to shed all the extra baggage. Old marines need to get squatted asap.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 03:33:02
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/15 03:39:31
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
Genestealers need a buff quite independantly of Marines IMHO. the fluff for GS's describes them "Tearing through even terminator armor like it was tissue paper" but... they can't do that, at least not reliably. I'd honestly buff Gene stealer rending claws (I'd proably call them something differant to avoid buffing other units with them) a straight up -4 AP instead of that silly "only on a 6" stuff that would mean basicly they're tearing apart space marine armor like it's not even there, and make terminators reliant on their invul save. that would make GS's TERRIFYING in close combat as they'd outright ignore armor.
Oh boy, funny you say that.
See, in the 3rd Ed rulebook's index army lists, Genestealers counted as having power weapons, which totally ignored armor saves. If you got into melee with Terminators, they died.
This was a little bit too much, though, so in the 3rd Ed codex they get Rending- a rule specifically for them, which said that on a 6 to hit, an attack automatically wounded with no armor save allowed. This kept them pretty spicy, but not as ridiculous.
Then someone had the brilliant idea to give Rending to the Assault Cannon, and the thing was so busted that GW responded by nerfing Rending to occur on a wound roll of 6 rather than a hit roll.
And that marked the start of a long stagnation in mediocrity, with Genestealers being one of the least popular Tyranid units from 4th until 7th. In 8th they got enough of a price cut to be worthwhile, and now the Xenomorph-esque killing machines that used to make Terminators Know Some Fear are a horde unit that loses to goddamn Intercessors, and that's one of our better units.
In other words: Marines being given overpowered rules is why we couldn't have nice things even circa 2005. Nihil novi sub solus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 03:42:20
What do you mean Necrons were getting worse and worse? Did you pay attention to Immortals and Warriors AT ALL with the new Necron codex? Wyches were also always gak vs Marines, so somehow this is shocking for you?
Also Aspect Warriors can't have gotten worse than Marines since we literally don't have a codex yet, or did you already forget how Marines got worse each time a new Eldar codex was released LOL
Basically nothing you said is true.
Do you think Necron Warriors and Immortals are tougher vs. Marines than they were 15 years ago?
Same for Aspect Warriors, Wyches, etc. in terms of a combination of resilience and striking power.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When I played against DE back in the day, I recall Wyches getting a 4++ in CC, hitting first with a high initiative, and Marines only having one attack back unless they charged, which was rare.
How does that compare to now?
They've fluctuated. Immortals are definitely in a better spot due to the new point cost for the same save and T5 they had in the 3rd edition codex AND being troops. The RP they currently have is more powerful than 3-5 + 8th, and about the same to less powerful than the 7th edition iteration. Being tougher to Marines though, absolutely compared to the disaster of the 8th iteration. The current RP + T5 is a god send, especially with the revamped weapons too.
Like. . . Just No. Like laughably No. Like pants-on-head No.
Immortals were 28 points a pop in 3rd against the Marine 15 and they were 100% worth it, being arguably the best infatry in the game.
You're really not disproving my point by just shouting "no" and hoping your echo chamber will back you up.
Read the second part then. The part with quantitative model value.
They can shoot better than an Ork Boy or a Genestealer-that's fine. But they also fight better them, while being more durable.
Who says they're living up to their fluff? If anything the individual Marine would basically be Custodes level and Custodes beyond even that.
You want to follow lore THAT strictly that's on all y'all.
Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
You know Movie Marines was a joke list, right? Like, a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the crazy heroic feats in Marine-centric novels aren't really consistent with the lore but are fun to read anyways.
Genestealers need a buff quite independantly of Marines IMHO. the fluff for GS's describes them "Tearing through even terminator armor like it was tissue paper" but... they can't do that, at least not reliably. I'd honestly buff Gene stealer rending claws (I'd proably call them something differant to avoid buffing other units with them) a straight up -4 AP instead of that silly "only on a 6" stuff that would mean basicly they're tearing apart space marine armor like it's not even there, and make terminators reliant on their invul save. that would make GS's TERRIFYING in close combat as they'd outright ignore armor.
Oh boy, funny you say that.
See, in the 3rd Ed rulebook's index army lists, Genestealers counted as having power weapons, which totally ignored armor saves. If you got into melee with Terminators, they died.
This was a little bit too much, though, so in the 3rd Ed codex they get Rending- a rule specifically for them, which said that on a 6 to hit, an attack automatically wounded with no armor save allowed. This kept them pretty spicy, but not as ridiculous.
Then someone had the brilliant idea to give Rending to the Assault Cannon, and the thing was so busted that GW responded by nerfing Rending to occur on a wound roll of 6 rather than a hit roll.
And that marked the start of a long stagnation in mediocrity, with Genestealers being one of the least popular Tyranid units from 4th until 7th. In 8th they got enough of a price cut to be worthwhile, and now the Xenomorph-esque killing machines that used to make Terminators Know Some Fear are a horde unit that loses to goddamn Intercessors, and that's one of our better units.
In other words: Marines being given overpowered rules is why we couldn't have nice things even circa 2005. Nihil novi sub solus.
In 3rd ed they were the only non monster unit able to tear open a vehicle I always regretted building a set of each hormogaunt, termagaunt, and spine fist gaunt for my troops... should have just had genestealers.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really not disproving my point by just shouting "no" and hoping your echo chamber will back you up.
No, his points make a lot of sense and yours don't with the constant goalpost-moving.
No goal posts were moved. Insectum asked if Immortals were in a better spot compared to the basic Marine for this edition, and I went through and said yes they are. Ball is in his court now.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/10/15 05:28:28
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
A lot of people missed my point it seemed. To wit:
- The Marine army should not be able to out-CC [Melee Force] (I'm talking generically here because people don't like the ork example, but we can put Slaanesh Daemons or World Eaters in here; the specific army is irrelevant). -- Getting into melee and board control should be a win condition for these fighty armies against a Marine army. -- The Marine army's win condition is to attrit the enemy sufficiently through a combination of ranged attacks and striking first in melee where possible that the melee army cannot succeed.
- The Marine army should not be able to out-Shoot [Shooting Force] (I'm talking generically here again, but we can put Tau or Imperial Guard in here; the specific army is irrelevant). -- Attriting the Marine army sufficiently through ranged attacks and using board control should be a win condition for a shooty army. -- The Marine army's win condition is to close into melee with the shooting force to degrade its capabilities, destroy its assets, and wrest board control from it.
This most accurately reflects the Marines from the fluff on the tabletop, where they use their strategic and tactical flexibility to force the engagement to happen on their terms. Marines should be a mobile (every squad in a Rhino) force whose primary strength on the tabletop isn't raw statlines (though they should still be above average) but rather is threefold: firstly force concentration, i.e. the ability to put huge amounts of force into small spaces. This is achieved through having slightly more powerful models that are fewer in number, so more combat power (ideally represented by "points" but not in reality currently) can be concentrated into a single area of the board at the player's discretion. Secondly, mobility, to quickly shift that localized, temporary combat power superiority to meet emergent battlefield conditions, and shock - both in terms of inflicting targeted damage to important enemy assets which will shock and unbalance the opposing player, but also the ability to quickly take and secure board space before relocating to the next objective area.
Of course, GW's game doesn't get at these aspects very well currently because the game design is so shallow, meaning that marine players will either have to be very skilled (since achieving those three strengths mentioned above will be more difficult than piloting other armies, which is the situation that CWE are in now I believe) or the codex and units will simply have to be SUPER GREAT (like they are now).
The current state of marines, I would argue, is a direct consequence of the game being far too shallowly designed to permit the "fluff" strengths of Marines to shine. - Concentrating combat power is trivial on such a tiny board - without any space to spread out, every army's combat power is by default concentrated. It takes a VERY skilled player to use the terrain to spot potential fissures where an army can be engaged piecemeal. - Mobility matters little, again on such a small board but also due to oversimplified deep-strike rules (always 9" whether you're a Marine or a Daemon; the old system of risk-reward and then allowing marines to mitigate risk with a drop pod was much better), oversimplified combat mechanics in which there is no ability to maneuver in response to e.g. enemy charges, shots, or other actions (due to the IGOUGO system), meaning that marines are quite easy to pin down unless, again, piloted by a very skilled player. - Shock against a skilled opponent is very difficult to achieve, and the incredibly high lethality of all of 40k in general means that few armies have "critical assets" that can be struck; such a unit would just be a weakness, unless it has a special rule ensuring its survivability (which in turn makes it difficult for the marines to take out as well). Furthermore, board space is so small that it is almost impossible to secure ground and move on; Marine units become tethered to objectives which robs the force of its ability to concentrate.
Anyways, some thoughts.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/10/15 05:34:36
2020/10/15 05:30:34
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really not disproving my point by just shouting "no" and hoping your echo chamber will back you up.
No, his points make a lot of sense and yours don't with the constant goalpost-moving.
No goal posts were moved. Insectum asked if Immortals were in a better spot compared to the basic Marine for this edition, and I went through and said yes they are. Ball is in his court now.
Don't try and pull that gak with me. He was talking about power levels of individual models vs. each other, and you avoided answering that question because it would show him to be right. It was a classic goal post move and I'm not having it.
2020/10/15 06:31:11
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
catbarf wrote: Man, I forgot how in Space Hulk the Marines don't bother bringing Terminator armor or even ammo because they can just punch through the hordes of Genestealers in their basic power armor. That was some real great lore.
To be fair, in Space Hulk it really doesn't make much sense for the marines to wear Terminator armor as it slows them down and reduces their ability to reposition in the tight areas while providing practically no protection against Rending Claws. Sometimes when I am playing as the Blood Angels, I think maybe it would have been better to just go in with loin cloths and combi-flamers.
Being Terminators still gives them more protection than Power Armor, as well as providing them a higher rate of fire and the ability to punch through hardened doors. (Power Armored Space Marines had a -2 to their combat score because they lacked protection and didn't have power fists)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really not disproving my point by just shouting "no" and hoping your echo chamber will back you up.
No, his points make a lot of sense and yours don't with the constant goalpost-moving.
No goal posts were moved. Insectum asked if Immortals were in a better spot compared to the basic Marine for this edition, and I went through and said yes they are. Ball is in his court now.
Don't try and pull that gak with me. He was talking about power levels of individual models vs. each other, and you avoided answering that question because it would show him to be right. It was a classic goal post move and I'm not having it.
Myes. Slayer: "if it takes ten Genestealers to kill a marine because mArInNeS aRe aWeSoMe, that's fine as long as the points work out. F the selling points of other factions."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 06:34:14
Lance845 wrote: I actually think primaris is the solution. Scrap all old marines. Primaris is a clean slate with less units and and smaller cleaner slate of weapons. They can be costed correctly and act with a unified theme. SM work well as a primaris army. It's the rest of the old line on top of them thats muddying the water right now.
I agree about you when you say lethality is too high and the game would be better designed if it goes down. But not about this; SM firstborn armies are currently amazing: tons of viable options but nothing overpowered and I'm really looking forward to my SW supplement. Meanwhile playing SW with no primaris (as I have none) is a lot of fun.
No classic marines lists were an issue in 8th as soon as all the other factions got their codex and no classic marines lists were an issue when SM 2.0 was released. If anything I'd remove primaris unit, not classic marines ones.
2020/10/15 07:06:37
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Insectum7 wrote: Myes. Slayer: "if it takes ten Genestealers to kill a marine because mArInNeS aRe aWeSoMe, that's fine as long as the points work out. F the selling points of other factions."
In a vacuum, that'd be ok, but it's clear it causes cascading problems throughout the game system if that's true. The other issue is that GW wants to have its cake and eat it too, with Astartes being powerful, elite troops that are worth multiple troops of other factions, but they don't want them to be a truly elite faction so they can sell more models. The solution, then, seems to be to undercost them so they're overpowered.
Eldar- 4436 pts
