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I don't think so Listen, what protects Szeras is look out sir. Just keep him in the middle of your units and he be fine. He doesn't need a particular unit to look out for him.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah I think when I do Flayed Ones I’ll be running them in a nice big blob of 20 to rip and tear until it is done.

Also, do spyders need the Technomancer to give them the 3+ to-hit for them to be good? Or could a unit of 3 do okay on their own?

3 on their own will do fine actually. In fact I think it will be pretty difficult to get the buff off on them on the charge anyways.

The idea I have in my head is 3 doom stalkers with techno in the middle with 2 units of shooty spiders on the front line. That way you are getting lots of plus 1 to hit. The issue with that is stalkers want to stay still and spiders want to move up. So it's difficult in practice. Just saying screw it and running 3 spiders on their own and not taking a crptec at all is still pretty good.

Yeah this is what I was thinking myself. I want to keep a Cryptek with the Canoptek buffing gear near so many different Canoptek units, I’m thinking I might just leave him by the Doomstalkers and let the spyders go do their thing by themselves. What a time to be a Necron player, when Spyders are actually COOL!

i wouldnt charge with the warriors that veil'd over.
Issue being is if you actually succeed in that, warriors arent really that great in melee anyway and you are now leaving the Warden in the dust since there is no way he's also succeeding to charge. He'll be in the wide open and get shot down immediately.

Doomstalkers have inv. saves which makes them quite appealing.
Chronomancer can also hand out 5++ saves.
I like an army with inv. saves and I'm looking at you, Wraiths.

What did just occur to me though is 5 Wraiths compared to 3 Spyders seems better. Faster, invuln saves, more attacks (though worse strength and AP). So I’m not sure which I want to use, but I really like the look of Spyders so I’ll most likely use them anyway.

IMO the 20 warriors with reapers veil bomb thing is an interesting option to keep in your back pocket, but not something to actually plan around using every game. A smart opponent will just screen you out and with only a 12" range and having to come in 9" away, you can only shoot what your opponent lets you. So a lot of the time you probably won't actually want to pull the trigger on T1. Which is fine; by having that option, you're forcing your opponent to play in a certain way, and the 20 warriors are useful anyway, as is the veil, so you're not really losing much by taking the option.

I'm kinda worried that Wraiths are going to be let down by the 4+ WS.
Technomancers can also keep up with Spyders where as they can't with Wraiths.
And Spyders can lay down 12 S5 shots on the way in.

I think I have to come down on team Spyder.

 dan2026 wrote:
I'm kinda worried that Wraiths are going to be let down by the 4+ WS.
Technomancers can also keep up with Spyders where as they can't with Wraiths.
And Spyders can lay down 12 S5 shots on the way in.

I think I have to come down on team Spyder.

They got an extra attack, so on average they should be hitting the same. They'll hurt if they get bit by -1 to hit though.

Wraiths don't kill much of anything, you're paying points for the 4++ and the mobility. Which is a good trade if what you want is mobility, but a very bad trade if what you want is damage. They serve totally different roles IMO. Wraiths are competing with scarabs in my mind much more than with spyders.

40kenthusiast hot takes part 5 of lots

Alright, since last time I took on HQ choices, it feels only right to take on troop choices this time. The last of the 'chore' choices, the ones you have to take. Warriors and Immortals aren't really competing against the worker units, the shot caller units, the destroyers, spyders, wraiths, etc. They are only competing with one another. You need either 2 or 3, depending on if you are going with a pair of patrols or a battalion.

Warriors:

What's to say about these guys? Not a lot new here. Both guns are better at short range, so your choice is the extra power of the reapers vs the extra work the flayers can put it at long range. I expect if you are planning to sit them on an objective in cover and wait out the game you want to go with flayers, just on the 'no nearby enemy at least they do SOMETHING' vibe, whereas if they are getting dumped out of a ghost arc or night scythe you probably want the reapers. It's not an enormous difference either way, in both cases you are doing 1 damage per successful wound.

I expect min warriors will be pretty uncommon, just because if you are looking for that kind of thing a unit of min immortals is cheaper and shoot about equally well at long range. Immortals nowadays seem likely to show up in blobs of 20, which is costly, but lets you maximize all the new support options.

Don't overvalue the 'reroll 1's on protocols rule'. Imagine a unit that takes 18 wounds from shooting. Split that into 3 rolls of each number, 1 through 6. So 6 warriors, the fives and sixes, hop back up. The twos, threes and fours stay dead, and the ones reroll. One of those rerolls is a 5 or 6, the other two are not. So the warriors get back 7 warriors. Next to them, a unit of 20 Flayed Ones, who lack this rule, take an identical volley. They get back 6 Flayed Ones. That's about the weight of the rule, one model coming back per entire unit getting wiped out.

There is a lot of rapid fire love in this codex, and a lot of Core unit love, so a warrior unit can get kind of fierce when properly blessed. It's still not going to deal out the kind of damage a destroyer unit or wraith unit will put out, but it's not quite the bolter equivalent of days gone by. You have +1 to hit from MWBD, maybe reroll 1's if you have a Stalker or Lord nearby, core boosting strats, a dynasty boost if you are mephrit or sautekh, protocols if its the right turn, Royal Warden letting you back out, etc. A 20 man unit rapid firing can mess up less durable enemy's day.

I expect there will even be a bit of appetite for the next level beyond just a 20 man blob, where you have the blob but also there's a ghost arc they can't hop in next to them, and a technomancer nearby, and maybe a second blob. The world has a lot of melta rifles in it nowadays, and a skew list that basically just spams 1 wound models that stand back up has some legs. I don't think its dominant, or even all that competitive, but if I ran into a 4 warrior blob 2 flayed one blob + big HQ list I wouldn't exactly be stunned.


Immortals:

These are, generally, the troop choice for the player who doesn't like troop choices. You take them because they are mandatory, then they spend the game wandering around doing actions and standing on objectives. 3x5 immortals will probably be a popular choice, with gauss dominating over tesla because they are cheaper.

Immortals haven't really lost all that much as actual fighting troops though. Like, their points per wound is dreadful, but the volume of fire they put out at 24 with tesla is still positively withering. A max unit of tesla immortals does very much the same job of a max unit of warriors that stands on an objective and supports at 24", but arguably they shoot harder and are cheaper, at the cost of being easier for the enemy to remove.

I don't think we'll see a lot of Immortals in Night Scythes. Immortals work just fine at a distance, and in almost any reasonable Necron list they will NOT be priority targets. No reason not to walk them up, firing all the while.

With this, we reach the end of the mandatory choices for Necron Battle Forged Units

The most common list, at this point, looks something like:

2 patrols (mephrit or custom dynasty)
CCB - Guass cannon, Voltaic Staff, Enduring Will (warlord)
-5 Immortals w/ gauss

Royal Warden/Technomancer w/node /Chronomancer/Destroyer lord - Veil of Darkness, + fighty warlord trait from strat if you are a destroyer Lord, or good piece of arkana if you are a techno/chronomancer
-5 immortals w/gauss\

A worthy backbone to build a list on, though obviously there are other choices.

Not sure why you would ever pay 2CP to avoid taking the third unit of Immortals.

Regarding Tesla, pretty dead after the changes, imho.

5 Immortals without any buffs/bonuses @max range vs MEQ:

Tesla: 1.97 damage
Gauss: 1.48 damage

Gauss obviously doubles the output at 15", so that would be enough for the tie, and being cheaper puts them quite firmly ahead, imho. Unless you are tailoring against Harlequins or whatever.

Only real reason I can see taking tesla is in a novokh list that wants the ability to advance and still hit stuff 24" away. Though in those lists I'm not sure you're taking immortals in the first place.

Not sure I get the take only min squad immortals approach. They are T5, 3+ save, CORE, 2 attacks, with a great gun and 1wound to maximize RP.

For a game that now relies on durability and objectives they are rock solid good choices. Even with all the other goodies I want to take I can't see not bringing 3 units of 10 gauss immortals in every list.

 buddha wrote:
Not sure I get the take only min squad immortals approach. They are T5, 3+ save, CORE, 2 attacks, with a great gun and 1wound to maximize RP.

For a game that now relies on durability and objectives they are rock solid good choices. Even with all the other goodies I want to take I can't see not bringing 3 units of 10 gauss immortals in every list.

I agree I think people are really underestimating toughness 5 and 3+ save. If you use Eternal Guardian you will have Immortals who are toughness 5 with a 2+ save that is very durable.

4 points for +1S and AP on the gun, +1T, +1 attack and +1 save is quite a steal. Normal bolter fire does quite a number on warriors, but barely touches immortals.

In my battalion-based list, I'm planning on one 20-man warrior blob with reapers and two immortal squads for my troop choices. Haven't decided whether to keep them 5 man or go to 10.

10 Immortals with gauss seem to be the best troop standard troop choice.

But if you have the points I like 20man warrior blocks, they can also do a lot of work.

Personally I see our standard for troops being 2x 10 Guass Immortals and 20 Warriors or 2x 20 Warriors and 10 Gauss immortals

A look at the Void Dragon.

Silent King has very good auras. Considering 6 inch auras are now rare, he gives multiple 6 inch auras. The problem is he can be targeted. Even with a 4++, he can be brought down if enough firepower is directed at him.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I reckon I'll be putting Deathmarks on my backfield objectives and marching up the board with the other troops

Because, y'know, decent snipers suddenly.

EDIT: Indcidentally, whats the accepted split between Immortals and Warriors now? Im thinking a unit of 20 with Reapers and 2x 10 w/ Tesla still.

Never use Tesla on Immortals, it's way worse right now even if they costed 17 ppm and not 19 ppm

Why is this? I don't see why they are now viewed as Dead.

I can't see how Tesla Immortals are not still going to be extremely good sitting mid-to-back field, in cover, pumping out shots.

Sure, an extra 2 pm is something, and adding 40 points in guns across 20 dudes is a little steep, but thats just what our codex is, and always has been.


EDIT: If the reason they should be cast aside is because you can no longer get 10 dudes spitting 20 shots hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s popping for 2 extra hits on a 4 plus, then I'm not surprised because that was broke to feth even if it was one of our only good tricks.

Tesla is dead for multiple reasons. Main one is this: tesla is feth-awful vs primaris. Even when we could on average gak out 30+ hits on 20 shots, it was damned inefficient. Without that advantage, it is worse, and our infantry has to be able to drop primaris blocks to earn a place other than backfield objective campers in min squads.

I say this as someone who regularly played 40 to 50 immortals in ITC. All tesla.

Just look at the math I posted above. Exploding 5s were the saving grace of Tesla, now they lost that, got more expensive, and you are seeing more units with good armor on the table. That's a triple beatdown.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Silent King has very good auras. Considering 6 inch auras are now rare, he gives multiple 6 inch auras. The problem is he can be targeted. Even with a 4++, he can be brought down if enough firepower is directed at him.

It will take a while as they have to shoot through both of his floating shields.
That's 10 T7 3+/4++ wounds to get though before you can even target the king directly.

 CKO wrote:
A look at the Void Dragon.

So the big takeaway from the new information about the Void Dragon and, from it, the other shards, is this:

The bodies you see are in essence an illusion, nothing more than a projection of what they want to look like. The actual C'tan Shard is a crystal at the core of it.

A crystal gem.

…

…

…



CANON

I really love how GW removed our only option to deploy outside of our deployment zone. All we have left is a custom trait which lets us move 6" before the first turn, which is not enough to get to markers in the middle of the map. Other armies, like daemons, or SM, can deploy outside their deployment zone almost for free. We are not only forced to fire on those units, they also act as area denial to our deepstrikers.

Wakshaani wrote:

 CKO wrote:
A look at the Void Dragon.

So the big takeaway from the new information about the Void Dragon and, from it, the other shards, is this:

The bodies you see are in essence an illusion, nothing more than a projection of what they want to look like. The actual C'tan Shard is a crystal at the core of it.

A crystal gem.

…

…

…



CANON

Oh god no.
I preferred it when C'tan were pokemon.

 p5freak wrote:
I really love how GW removed our only option to deploy outside of our deployment zone. All we have left is a custom trait which lets us move 6" before the first turn, which is not enough to get to markers in the middle of the map. Other armies, like daemons, or SM, can deploy outside their deployment zone almost for free. We are not only forced to fire on those units, they also act as area denial to our deepstrikers.

Frankly, I don't want to play SM, which amounts more and more to being a stupid faction.
They are more beefed up than any other faction in the 40k universe.

DogHeadGod wrote:Tesla is dead for multiple reasons. Main one is this: tesla is feth-awful vs primaris. Even when we could on average gak out 30+ hits on 20 shots, it was damned inefficient. Without that advantage, it is worse, and our infantry has to be able to drop primaris blocks to earn a place other than backfield objective campers in min squads.

I say this as someone who regularly played 40 to 50 immortals in ITC. All tesla.

That is fair enough, but Tesla has always been awful against Primaris? But, they were extremely good against everything else. S5 is still good, wounding the new Grav Troopers on 4s is gonna be an ok factor at least. I'll agree they aren't the greatest by default anymore, but still taking a couple units to round out lists isnt bad.

We have better sources of Guass now, at least thats my logic.

Acehilator wrote:Just look at the math I posted above. Exploding 5s were the saving grace of Tesla, now they lost that, got more expensive, and you are seeing more units with good armor on the table. That's a triple beatdown.

I didn't see any math, but then again I did skip about 3 pages because I just couldnt keep up with the backlog. Could you repost it for me please?

Well, I mean it's called a C'tan shard for a reason. They are trapped in a tesseract labyrinth inside that shard. Then wrapped in a necrodermis body which is what you see, not an illusion. More like a mech suit than.....whatever that is.

 IHateNids wrote:
I didn't see any math, but then again I did skip about 3 pages because I just couldnt keep up with the backlog. Could you repost it for me please?

5 Immortals without any buffs/bonuses vs MEQ:

Tesla: 1.97 damage @24"
Gauss: 1.48 damage @30", obviously 2.96 @15"

Tesla is 11% more expensive and deals 25% more damage in the 15-24" range band, but no damage at 24"+, and 33% less at 1.1-15".

Acehilator wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I didn't see any math, but then again I did skip about 3 pages because I just couldnt keep up with the backlog. Could you repost it for me please?

5 Immortals without any buffs/bonuses vs MEQ:

Tesla: 1.97 damage @24"
Gauss: 1.48 damage @30", obviously 2.96 @15"

Tesla is 11% more expensive and deals 25% more damage in the 15-24" range band, but no damage at 24"+, and 33% less at 1.1-15".

Unless I'm mistaken, arent those numbers basically exactly the same as provious editions, minorly adjusted to fit the fact Blasters are now 30" range?

Thank you for the duplication though, I do see what you are saying. I am not claiming Tesla will hold our troops up like it used to, but I still think Tesla is the go-to if you plan on that unit not getting near anything else.I will have to see once I start writing up lists of course, but being from the north east of england, gaming is illegal at the minute unless it's in your house, and im the only one, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯