Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King

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**vict0988**

Necrons just got a top 3 (pretty sure it was Adepticon) and they've had tonnes of top 4s in 9th. I don't know what was in the list. Even if Necrons are the worst army in the game proposed rules should go in the relevant forum, rather than the tactics thread, because we cannot shape our tactics around homebrew, wishlisting or rumours.

**wuestenfux**

How good we are with 3x20 Flayed Ones?
Looks like an invasion from the enemy's point of view.
But its a lot of bucks.

**p5freak**

wuestenfux wrote:
How good we are with 3x20 Flayed Ones?
Looks like an invasion from the enemy's point of view.
But its a lot of bucks.

I think 18 wraith moving 20" first turn sounds better. 6" pregame move, +12" move, +1" protocol, +1" from overlord.

**wuestenfux**

p5freak wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
How good we are with 3x20 Flayed Ones?
Looks like an invasion from the enemy's point of view.
But its a lot of bucks.

I think 18 wraith moving 20" first turn sounds better. 6" pregame move, +12" move, +1" protocol, +1" from overlord.

Indeed, I guess so.
Moreover, behind 3x6 Wraiths you can field three units of Lychguard so that one Wraith unit can be deployed in front of a Lychguard unit.
Simple tactics is that a Wraith unit takes on an enemy unit asap. After one round of combat, the Wraiths withdraw and move forward and the Lychguard unit behind charges the unit left behind.

**EightFoldPath**

I'm not sure you take Flayed Ones for melee damage. They are just 10 point objective swampers (with the obsec chapter tactic). T4 4+ with RP and a good reactive strategem (-1 to be hit) that can be used to alter the maths of your opponent.

That is kind of the issue for Skorpekhs vs Wraiths. I love the 5 points cheaper part, but the first turn pre charge threat is 4" less at 16" not 20". But again, they've got my favourite kind of strategem, the reactive kind, with -1 to wound. I think both are a good option and they are close. I like being INFANTRY for actions on turn 1 (if not just running up the board) and light cover.

**Manchild 1984**

EightFoldPath wrote:
You don't own The Silent King, 60 Flayed Ones and 18 Skorpekhs already? Well, for the low low GW price of £680 RRP you too can have 1,560 points of well balanced goodness.

I see Silent King as affordable (because 420 points)

**Manchild 1984**

has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

**iGuy91**

Manchild 1984 wrote:
has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

I dont think it would really fit most lists. Too many points in models that aren't gonna punch above their weight.

**vict0988**

Manchild 1984 wrote:
has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

I think that's the only unit I never tried to spam. But the Orbs aren't really worth it on a 190 pt unit, so you're paying a 90 pt tax to do it. I think it might be easier to make it work without the Orbs and just limiting yourself to 160 pt units.

I am almost certain you'd be better off with a Technomancer to back up the single CCB and finding different secondaries to run, you could run 3x6 Flayed Ones to do actions and stuff like that and if you were planning to run the 3x6 Flayed Ones anyway then your list is going to be really light on damage output I imagine.

If you don't want to test it yourself I can do it, but I don't play against competitive lists so I can only compare internally and give you a better idea of whether further testing is worth doing on your own.

Catacomb of Terror (Relentless Conquerors CCB spam board control list)

Spoiler:

Terror of Libella (same list without the CCB spam)

Spoiler:

Catacomb of Doom (Szarekhan CCB spam list without Res Orbs)

Spoiler:

**wuestenfux**

Manchild 1984 wrote:
has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).

**Slipspace**

wuestenfux wrote:
Manchild 1984 wrote:
has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).

Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.

**vict0988**

Slipspace wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Manchild 1984 wrote:
has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).

Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.

What is there besides opportunity cost?

**p5freak**

vict0988 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Manchild 1984 wrote:
has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).

Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.

What is there besides opportunity cost?

How about 15 VP, when all three survive ?

**v0iddrgn**

Does anyone here know what Custodes' weaknesses are that we can exploit?

**CKO**

v0iddrgn wrote:
Does anyone here know what Custodes' weaknesses are that we can exploit?

They dislike ap 2, making their saves 4+ is huge. Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.

**vict0988**

CKO wrote:
Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.

That's broscience advice, mathematically you can hardly find a faction that cares less than Custodes, if you tried taking Doomscythes against them you'd be in for a really bad time and they will cut Skorpekhs up for breakfast with S6 in melee. Chronomancer buffed Warriors with gauss reapers are pretty hard to remove for Custodes and have a really good profile against them. The 6+++ makes MW slightly worse than they used to be, still pretty good.

**Slipspace**

vict0988 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Manchild 1984 wrote:
has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)

What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).

Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.

What is there besides opportunity cost?

Actual cost, for one. General effectiveness. 1 is almost always useful. 2+? Not so sure. Like, what do the second and third one actually do?

**CKO**

vict0988 wrote:
CKO wrote:
Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.

That's broscience advice, mathematically you can hardly find a faction that cares less than Custodes, if you tried taking Doomscythes against them you'd be in for a really bad time and they will cut Skorpekhs up for breakfast with S6 in melee. Chronomancer buffed Warriors with gauss reapers are pretty hard to remove for Custodes and have a really good profile against them. The 6+++ makes MW slightly worse than they used to be, still pretty good.

Broscience advice followed by chronomancer buffed warriors with guass reapers are pretty hard to remove is funny!

**Manchild 1984**

Custodes are the least affected of minus 1 to hit or wound. Orcs suffer more from -1 to hit

**CKO**

Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.

To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?

**Manchild 1984**

CKO wrote:
Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.

To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?

going from 5+ to 6+ is a big difference.

A unit of 20 Flayed Ones + Overlord is weaker then 30 Flayed Ones.

**CKO**

Manchild 1984 wrote:
CKO wrote:
Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.

To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?

going from 5+ to 6+ is a big difference.

A unit of 20 Flayed Ones + Overlord is weaker then 30 Flayed Ones.

So if you understand the power of MWBD, you should understand how taking it away is strong, right? That is what happens when you use the -1 to hit stratagem.

**Manchild 1984**

CKO wrote:
Manchild 1984 wrote:
CKO wrote:
Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.

To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?

going from 5+ to 6+ is a big difference.

A unit of 20 Flayed Ones + Overlord is weaker then 30 Flayed Ones.

So if you understand the power of MWBD, you should understand how taking it away is strong, right? That is what happens when you use the -1 to hit stratagem.

I do not understand "the power of MWBD". I think it's a waste of points. It would be different if you go from 6+ to 5+ (aka double the hits)

**Da-Rock**

I do love the, "Yeah, any negative is bad and affects an army, but in my opinion saying anything other than what I think is just stupid....or Broscience."

going from 2 to 3's sucks and affects any freakin army....to say anything else is narrative building.

**Manchild 1984**

Da-Rock wrote:
I do love the, "Yeah, any negative is bad and affects an army, but in my opinion saying anything other than what I think is just stupid....or Broscience."

going from 2 to 3's sucks and affects any freakin army....to say anything else is narrative building.

not at all, always look at it as fractions. from 2 to 3 is -20% or *0.8

**vict0988**

CKO wrote:
Broscience advice followed by chronomancer buffed warriors with guass reapers are pretty hard to remove is funny!

Yes, it's random that it's been a tournament staple before the Core change. I'm sure you're going to tell me all about how Custodes are excellent at taking out Warriors and terrible at taking out every other unit choice in the codex and how there are tonnes of units that are better suited to killing Custodes than reaper Warriors or maybe you'll explain how a Chronomancer isn't worth it against Custodes. /sarcasm

Da-Rock wrote:
...going from 2 to 3's sucks and affects any freakin army....to say anything else is narrative building.

That's a mighty fine strawman you got yourself there. /sarcasm

**CKO**

@vict0988 I am lost at this point. Are we both in agreement that we stated things that are obvious to us but not to the person who asked the question? When someone ask a question, you give them an answer regardless of the difficulty setting and that is what I did. You followed my response with a broscience statement about my answer. Is the question to simple in your eyes and don't deserve an answer? Was my answer not good enough, I don't know at this point. Feel free to explain you usually give out good advice. Funny thing about this situation I don't think we disagree on anything tactically but perhaps on how it was presented.

**vict0988**

CKO wrote:
...Was my answer not good enough...

In my opinion, your answer was wrong, it is not supported by math.

If Orks get -1 to hit on their 18 autocannon shots then they miss 3 extra hits, if Custodes get -1 to hit on their 6 autocannon shots then they miss 1 extra hit. Custodes will make 4/6 hits instead of 5/6 (20% loss), Orks will make 3/18 hits instead of 6/18 hits (50% loss).

I am sorry about calling it broscience, it's obviously way out of context for a tabletop wargaming forum, I don't even work out anymore. Broscience is something that sounds like it works or makes sense but really isn't the best solution according to science. I do not mean to be disparaging towards you, I am only referring to the specific advice of loading up on -1 to hit/wound against Custodes being bad.

If you wanted to prove me wrong one way would be to do 6 games against the same Custodes list using 2 different lists, one list with lots of Chronomancered Warriors and one list with TBs and Flyers.

**Manchild 1984**

I lost a match to custodes yesterday, not ashamed.

I did impress a bit with C'Tan Power "Time's Arrow"

**CKO**

vict0988 wrote:
CKO wrote:
...Was my answer not good enough...

In my opinion, your answer was wrong, it is not supported by math.

We play with a six-sided die, each minus is 16.6666667%. Going from a 2 to 3 is literally 16.666667% worse for them.

vict0988 wrote:
If Orks get -1 to hit on their 18 autocannon shots then they miss 3 extra hits, if Custodes get -1 to hit on their 6 autocannon shots then they miss 1 extra hit. Custodes will make 4/6 hits instead of 5/6 (20% loss), Orks will make 3/18 hits instead of 6/18 hits (50% loss).

I hate doing numbers but if we must, I will do it for the Newt Dynasty!

I have no clue why Orks is in this conversation, I am going to use Custodes as that is on topic. The most popular unit is their bikes, which have a hurricane bolter or salvo launcher. Hurricane bolter has 12 shots, at bs 2 that's 10 hits on average. If you use the stratagem there is a 33% chance that each shot will miss compared to just 16%. Instead of 10 hits, you get 8 hits on average then they go on to wounding which becomes a 50% chance of forcing a save on our units. Salvo Launchers are anti-tank so three shots at large infantry shots should not happen.

36 shots
bs 2=30 hits 15 saves
bs 3=24 hits 12 saves

vict0988 wrote:
I am sorry about calling it broscience, it's obviously way out of context for a tabletop wargaming forum, I don't even work out anymore. Broscience is something that sounds like it works or makes sense but really isn't the best solution according to science. I do not mean to be disparaging towards you, I am only referring to the specific advice of loading up on -1 to hit/wound against Custodes being bad.

If the praetors charge Skorpekhs they can eliminate the +1 to wound lance ability with the stratagem, instead of wounding on 2+ they wound on 3+ which is huge! Skorpekh Destroyers can easily survive the charge because of that stratagem. With flayed ones, the minus one to hit makes 33% miss and this time they only have 12 attacks so that once more helps out a lot. I did not understand the broscience comment at first, I gotcha now bro!

vict0988 wrote:
If you wanted to prove me wrong one way would be to do 6 games against the same Custodes list using 2 different lists, one list with lots of Chronomancered Warriors and one list with TBs and Flyers.

I never said minus 1 to hit and wound wins you the game.

CKO wrote:
They dislike ap 2, making their saves 4+ is huge. Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.

I said -1 to hit or wound hurts them a lot because they are an elite army. Using stratagems and abilities to interfere with their typically hitting on 2's wounding on 2's is a strategy you can use when facing them which will make your army more durable. I said ap 2 is big and who has ap 2 our warriors so why would I not include warriors? Flayed ones can use the stratagem, have a 5++, and have ap 2 with Novokh. Never underestimate the power of 16.666667% in a dice game. That's more broscience are we back where we started?