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Again, Supreme Commanders aren't there for you to get to throw someone else into another army.

It's for a non-standard HQ choice.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

So by that vein, there's literally no point to them existing at all since Primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion can't really do anything with non-TS/DG forces.

The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

Magnus and Mortarion don't get the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because that is not their purpose. They have the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword for exactly the purpose you just mentioned. You can add them without messing up your main FOC. SUPREME COMMANDER is different in function even though it fits in the same detachment that units with the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword go into. It is for units like Shadowsun who belong to a specific Sept but who are high enough up in a leadership role that they would lead all units in the their faction even if those units come from other Septs.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

So by that vein, there's literally no point to them existing at all since Primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion can't really do anything with non-TS/DG forces.

The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

Magnus and Mortarion don't get the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because that is not their purpose. They have the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword for exactly the purpose you just mentioned. You can add them without messing up your main FOC. SUPREME COMMANDER is different in function even though it fits in the same detachment that units with the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword go into. It is for units like Shadowsun who belong to a specific Sept but who are high enough up in a leadership role that they would lead all units in the their faction even if those units come from other Septs.

You might want to reread what your post is that I replied to then, because your argument in there presents exactly the opposite of what you're arguing here.

Dante might not lead a force of Iron Hands...but he might lead a force of Flesh Tearers or Lamenters. How's he gonna do that without SC?
Azrael definitely is a good choice for Supreme Commander, if one reads the fluff, since he can call up the other Unforgiven Chapters. Same question.
Shrike is a fantastic choice for Supreme Commander, given that he and his Wing(which it's downright frigging criminal that they didn't actually give us) are basically traveling from warzone to warzone and intervening where they so choose.


Supreme Command Detachment is intended to allow for you to take what is effectively 'a hero of note'. Hence the Daemon Primarch, Primarch, and Supreme Commander caveats.
If you cannot see where several of the characters mentioned would qualify? That's on you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

So by that vein, there's literally no point to them existing at all since Primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion can't really do anything with non-TS/DG forces.

The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

Magnus and Mortarion don't get the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because that is not their purpose. They have the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword for exactly the purpose you just mentioned. You can add them without messing up your main FOC. SUPREME COMMANDER is different in function even though it fits in the same detachment that units with the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword go into. It is for units like Shadowsun who belong to a specific Sept but who are high enough up in a leadership role that they would lead all units in the their faction even if those units come from other Septs.

You might want to reread what your post is that I replied to then, because your argument in there presents exactly the opposite of what you're arguing here.

Dante might not lead a force of Iron Hands...but he might lead a force of Flesh Tearers or Lamenters. How's he gonna do that without SC?

The same way he did in Blood Of Baal. He told Seth where to go and what to do, and Seth was the battlefield commander of the Fleshtearers. Now you have a point that successor chapters (especially the inheritors carbon copies) should be able to take some nameds from their primogenitor, but that's usually "fixed" by Counts As.

Azrael definitely is a good choice for Supreme Commander, if one reads the fluff, since he can call up the other Unforgiven Chapters. Same question.

Same answer.

Shrike is a fantastic choice for Supreme Commander, given that he and his Wing(which it's downright frigging criminal that they didn't actually give us) are basically traveling from warzone to warzone and intervening where they so choose.

And he and his wing generally do it without the assistance, participation or sometimes even knowledge of the Guard etc.

Supreme Command Detachment is intended to allow for you to take what is effectively 'a hero of note'. Hence the Daemon Primarch, Primarch, and Supreme Commander caveats.
If you cannot see where several of the characters mentioned would qualify? That's on you.

Those characters are going to be leading a force of their own in a small area, they rarely mingle with other forces in a battle vs the campaign.

You're right that Dante might be in charge of the defense of an entire planet, but the games are representative of a small battle or skirmish part of that defense.

Now I believe EVENTUALLY Dante, maybe Azrael (assuming Johnson isn't back and awake by then) and some other Marine Chapter Masters (Shrike?) will get the keyword. but not for a while, and not until after those players complain (somewhat rightly so) they don't get the extra character this Det would give them.

Celestine would cross sisterhoods, assuming she even has an Order of her Own (probably doesn't.

Guard are probably getting a new character to replace Creed as the highest ranking Special they can take.

Custodes are probably going to be forgotten like Grey Knights and chapters with/without a CM for a while.

Cawl has a forgeworld preselected, but will probably get a cross faction rule similar to Shadowsun.

Knights aren't getting anything except maybe a special rule to make one of their Knights eligible - but they don't really need it either as they're more points limited than slot limited.

Inquisitor nameds may all get it.

Chaos Daemons probably lose out. Daemon animosity is too much of a thing for Kairos to be a Warlord of a Khorne army.

Abbadon maybe gets it, probably doesn't because they're already trying to do this with CSM. But maybe.

Eldar has way too many different ways to go to guess. Phoenix Lords, Eldrad, Yvraine,

GSC will either share one with Nids, or get a named Patriarch.

Ghaz turning into the Primeork has been guessed by others the last time this thread came up, and makes quite a bit of sense.

Am not sure about how it looks for other countries, but on the Polish version of the GW store site. The officials name for Azrael, is
Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.
So I guess to make him the rule they would have to re name him to Suprem commander, Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.

Maybe it is better that he isn't one, because it sound really stupid to me.

Karol wrote:
Am not sure about how it looks for other countries, but on the Polish version of the GW store site. The officials name for Azrael, is
Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.
So I guess to make him the rule they would have to re name him to Suprem commander, Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.

Maybe it is better that he isn't one, because it sound really stupid to me.

not quite, as Supreme Commander is a keyword attached to a unit, like Imperium, or Dark Angel, etc. it wouldn't become part of the title of Supreme Grand Master Azrael. its just their for rules purposes to let GW hang certian rules or restrictions off of a unit or character (like letting you take a Supreme Commander into that special commander detachment), not an additional title given to the unit.

Yes, but they won't all receive a new model I don't think. For most armies they'll just take a pre-existing unit and make it their LoW character. Gazzy is an obvious one.

They don’t have to be a LOW. They have to be EITHER

a Lord Of War

OR

an HQ with the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword

THANK you for THE clarification

Celestine seems likely as she is inspiration to Imperial troops - both Church and Guard and so makes sense to allow her to be easily taken for either.

Am not sure of it, but if the imperial church works like any church in earth history, then I have my doubts how happy it would be with anyone from outside of the church structure having any influance on anything. I understand why SoBs may be okey with her, but saints flying around is not something a cardinal or governor would want to see.

Karol wrote:
Am not sure of it, but if the imperial church works like any church in earth history, then I have my doubts how happy it would be with anyone from outside of the church structure having any influance on anything. I understand why SoBs may be okey with her, but saints flying around is not something a cardinal or governor would want to see.

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

I'm looking forward to the second coming of our lord and savior, VALDOR.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dante might not lead a force of Iron Hands...but he might lead a force of Flesh Tearers or Lamenters. How's he gonna do that without SC?
Azrael definitely is a good choice for Supreme Commander, if one reads the fluff, since he can call up the other Unforgiven Chapters. Same question.
Shrike is a fantastic choice for Supreme Commander, given that he and his Wing(which it's downright frigging criminal that they didn't actually give us) are basically traveling from warzone to warzone and intervening where they so choose.


Supreme Command Detachment is intended to allow for you to take what is effectively 'a hero of note'. Hence the Daemon Primarch, Primarch, and Supreme Commander caveats.
If you cannot see where several of the characters mentioned would qualify? That's on you.

That's just your interpretation though.
The way I see it the supreme command detachment is made to support two things: Enable named characters with locked sub-faction to be taken by any sub-faction and to enable primarchs to be played by their own faction without a 3 CP tax. There really is no need for every named chapter master to become a supreme commander because for one you can already play those armies as they are right now with zero drawbacks, and secondly there is no need to open up the possibility to randomly add a slot-free chapter master to any random Imperium army.
The keyword very much symbolizes a character leading that army into battle, not just technically being their superior.

I also don't see a reason to enable Dante to lead an army of flesh tearers or lamenters - he is their supreme commander in large scale conflicts, so their commanders take orders from him, but I am not aware of any incident where Dante took direct control of a successor chapter's army. In all sources I could find, it was always a group of blood angels lead by Dante cooperating with their successors who were lead by their respective commander.
I know it's the same for High Marshall Helbrecht whose title (if I remember the novel correctly) automatically makes him the supreme commander of any naval battle going on in the area, yet he would rarely, if ever, lead an army of anything but Black Templars into battle.
I didn't do as much research on the other chapter masters, but I don't remember ever reading any fluff or novel that described a space marine leading an army from another chapter, not even their successors. There are some stories where some survivors were forced to join another chapter or legion in the heat of battle, but they would usually put themselves under that armies commander, even if they outranked them.
The only real "supreme commanders" leading an army of space marines I can see are primarchs or inquisitors.

I could see Celestine and/or the Funeral Procession being a Supreme Commander specifically for Sisters' sub-factions - but only Celestine for the Guard.
In fact, thinking of the Guard... I very much doubt he'll make a return now, but the one Guard character I can think of that'd fit is Lord Solar Macharius.

Daemons could maybe buff Belakor on the table and make him a supreme commander? Perhaps not. The named greater daemons came to mind, but they'd need buffs in a future codex because currently a regular GD with one or two exalted traits and a relic is better.

Several factions don't have any need or use for a Supreme Commander. The concept simply doesn't fit.

Daemons, non-dark eldar, individual chapters/legions (barring an unnecessary avalanche of primarchs), Guard (someone is at the top of the chain in every warzone, but that really doesn't fit the way the game uses the concept), Custards, Genestealer Cults (really, their point is planetary suicide).

Honestly even orks and tyranids are a hard sell. I get that GW wants to sell its stupid big centerpiece models, but Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

 Mr Morden wrote:

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

Yes, and if a girl would suddenly pop up and have the support of king and country, the church would not like it. It doesn't matter who she is and who she claims sent her or who outside of the hierachy likes or supports here. Only two things matter how power structures are split between different ranks in the church and that you never ever ever let someone outside of the church make decisions that encroach in to the area that is of church interests. That is why bishops started civil wars in countries by puting curses on kings, khans,rahjas etc. This is why all churchs always see the wondering preacher as one of their main enemies, why it is so hard to establish a convent in any relgion or why any church member hierarch gets an aleregic reaction when some people decide that now they are going to pick their own priests and representatives. You get wars of faith that way.

Voss wrote:
Several factions don't have any need or use for a Supreme Commander. The concept simply doesn't fit.

Daemons, non-dark eldar, individual chapters/legions (barring an unnecessary avalanche of primarchs), Guard (someone is at the top of the chain in every warzone, but that really doesn't fit the way the game uses the concept), Custards, Genestealer Cults (really, their point is planetary suicide).

Honestly even orks and tyranids are a hard sell. I get that GW wants to sell its stupid big centerpiece models, but Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

Ghazgkull fluffwize started as a Goff but his waaagh then included groups from all other clans, I'd say he qualifies. Similar to Abaddon, even the Daemon Primarchs followed him more or less, he's definitely more of a Chaos Supreme Commander than Morty and Magnus who only care for their own Legion and probably their close allies in the form of Traitor Guardsmen.

I would like to see a new Swarm Lord and a Norn Queen.

Karol wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

Yes, and if a girl would suddenly pop up and have the support of king and country, the church would not like it. It doesn't matter who she is and who she claims sent her or who outside of the hierachy likes or supports here. Only two things matter how power structures are split between different ranks in the church and that you never ever ever let someone outside of the church make decisions that encroach in to the area that is of church interests. That is why bishops started civil wars in countries by puting curses on kings, khans,rahjas etc. This is why all churchs always see the wondering preacher as one of their main enemies, why it is so hard to establish a convent in any relgion or why any church member hierarch gets an aleregic reaction when some people decide that now they are going to pick their own priests and representatives. You get wars of faith that way.

But she is not "a girl" - she is the power of the Emperor manifest and if you see her - you see that. Its not a matter of her claiming stuff - its an in universe fact.

Thats the different between our world and hers - yes a girl can claim to be a messenger form god and no proof. Celestine arrives in a shower of light, smiting Greater Daemons as she does so - to look at her is to know the Emperor is with her.

She is also not a mortal seeking temporal power. When she appears if you know anything about her you will know that things are desperate (if its not obvious already)

You really need to look at the actual lore about her

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Voss wrote:
Several factions don't have any need or use for a Supreme Commander. The concept simply doesn't fit.

Daemons, non-dark eldar, individual chapters/legions (barring an unnecessary avalanche of primarchs), Guard (someone is at the top of the chain in every warzone, but that really doesn't fit the way the game uses the concept), Custards, Genestealer Cults (really, their point is planetary suicide).

Honestly even orks and tyranids are a hard sell. I get that GW wants to sell its stupid big centerpiece models, but Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

Ghazgkull fluffwize started as a Goff but his waaagh then included groups from all other clans, I'd say he qualifies. Similar to Abaddon, even the Daemon Primarchs followed him more or less, he's definitely more of a Chaos Supreme Commander than Morty and Magnus who only care for their own Legion and probably their close allies in the form of Traitor Guardsmen.

Orks always fall in behind the toughest ork and that one will lead the waaaaaagh, so I expect Ghaz could command and empire of Orks. Like wise primarchs inspire loyalty and devotion in humans in the same way gravity inspires things to fall to the floor, it’s like an unescapable force. If Celestine is manifesting the emperors power then I expect it’s the same. Really that’s the level of being we’re talking about. There will be a Nid that fits the bill.

Aren’t the eldar resurrecting a god of war?

Voss wrote:
Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

Actually, the current fluff states the very opposite. Ever since his departure from Armageddon and the start of the Great Waaagh! he has become a beacon of warp energy that is drawing in ork from a huge part of the galaxy (quote:"from hundreds of light years away"). In fact, when Ragnar decapitated him, it was immediately felt by every ork in the sector and spawned infighting over his succession everywhere - which was one of the reasons why the primaris wolves managed to successfully rescue Ragnar.
On top of that, he seems to be tellyporting around the galaxy - the map in Saga of the Beasts has sightings of him on both sides of the great rift, along the entire length of it. While not explicitly stated, he seems to have learned how to repeat the trick that allowed him to escape from Helbrecht and Yarrik to the other side of the galaxy.

Thrakka is no longer just a warboss with exceptional intellect like he was on Armageddon, he has become much more than that.

Karol wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

Yes, and if a girl would suddenly pop up and have the support of king and country, the church would not like it. It doesn't matter who she is and who she claims sent her or who outside of the hierachy likes or supports here. Only two things matter how power structures are split between different ranks in the church and that you never ever ever let someone outside of the church make decisions that encroach in to the area that is of church interests. That is why bishops started civil wars in countries by puting curses on kings, khans,rahjas etc. This is why all churchs always see the wondering preacher as one of their main enemies, why it is so hard to establish a convent in any relgion or why any church member hierarch gets an aleregic reaction when some people decide that now they are going to pick their own priests and representatives. You get wars of faith that way.

Karol, are you really saying that in the history of Europe a girl's never shown up and claimed a divine mandate of leadership and been supported by a king?

I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol, are you really saying that in the history of Europe a girl's never shown up and claimed a divine mandate of leadership and been supported by a king?

It happened. Then she got burned as a witch, from my understanding of the most well-known example.

 Lance845 wrote:
Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

Maybe they'll let him re-roll 1's to wound if he charges?

That'd make him good, right?

Nah we not all getting a hero..

Some will get mor heroes than others

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

Maybe they'll let him re-roll 1's to wound if he charges?

That'd make him good, right?

Is that a joke? I honestly don't know your position on this and cannot tell.