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Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Had to check the date of OP just to make sure this isn't Necromancy

Seriously though, 3rd edition had the best lore/feeling of the army, 5th had the best rules. Everything afterwards felt lacklustre (=unfun) to me.

I still got my fully painted army, but I'm going to sell it soon.

That is debatable--> just like E.g. 3.5 chaos dex, etc.

Chaos 3.5 codex was the best codex ever.

HAHAHA, no. and also yes.

See it allowed Chaos marines to be well Chaos marines in all their individualistic customizable nature, but just as much as it was customizable it was abusive...
the book would've needed a propper recalibration allbeit the conceptual work is a goldstandard of what CSM should be.
then came 4th and i don't need to bring that disaster up....

This customizability was also what drew me later to R&H compared to CSM, which felt like barebones marines with spikes for the most part added to some genuinely slowed mechanics like lash..
even the csm dex now is meh at best out of a conceptual viewpoint...

from what I ehar CSMs 3.5 was a lot like Marines 8.5 + supplements. it was a fantastic book in that each subfaction felt like a fleshed out subfaction with a solid version of it's own identity, but this meant it had some power issues. that about right?

Ehhh, that is pretty close, except it actually was even more customizable then the supplements, and had however a rather large power spread for the subfactions within it unlike the supplements which in general were with the 2.0 dex ludicrous. then again it had some stuff in there that would even today use most SM 2.0 armies even ih prenerf as sleighs comparatively.

The issue was mostly based upon prices and rules interactions so IT could've been fixed.

The sad part is what happened afterwards was even worse in a lot of ways, (lashprinces... Oblitspam and suicide termites...), ruleswise (in regards to beeing broken) but the rest of the army was so utterly gak and uncustomizable that it even held the named issues back..

That wasn't changed later on so when R&H came out well, yeah unsurprisingly alot jumped ship, myself included. That one was better balanced internally but 6th and 7th were... well. Let's just say i'd prefer index era 8th over that.

yeah, if an army's gotta be made up of over powered gak I'd much rather it function and look like the army is supposed to instead of spamming one or two weird niche broken things

BrianDavion wrote:


yeah, if an army's gotta be made up of over powered gak I'd much rather it function and look like the army is supposed to instead of spamming one or two weird niche broken things

As stated most of the stuff in 3.5 was, well , rubbish, some of the stuff was horribly broken but it still allowed the rubbish stuff to be atleast fitting rubbish to what it was supposed to be...

the 4th dex onwards was just lashprince lashprince, 3x3 obliterators, 3x3 suicide termites, 2 x 5 csm with rhino because feck csm but i must take 2 so put em in a metaw bawks ( or mobile trashcan because that is whhere 15 ppm CSM belonged in allready then, funnily they went even worse over the course of time to the new lowpoint that is right now...).

that list isn't even fun or fluffy for any legion or warband so it can't even claim beeing fitting and that was more or less what people had to play because the rest of the book was so underpowered that you crippled your own player agency just thinking about including them.


Edit:
The same though is true for later on for GK, go use baby carrier was the standard answer for a long time. X psy y unit and pray that you don't get fethed.
Or in other words GW's failure (permanent maybee added) at decent internal balance is a massive issue for many factions. GK are just another one.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


yeah, if an army's gotta be made up of over powered gak I'd much rather it function and look like the army is supposed to instead of spamming one or two weird niche broken things

As stated most of the stuff in 3.5 was, well , rubbish, some of the stuff was horribly broken but it still allowed the rubbish stuff to be atleast fitting rubbish to what it was supposed to be...

the 4th dex onwards was just lashprince lashprince, 3x3 obliterators, 3x3 suicide termites, 2 x 5 csm with rhino because feck csm but i must take 2 so put em in a metaw bawks ( or mobile trashcan because that is whhere 15 ppm CSM belonged in allready then, funnily they went even worse over the course of time to the new lowpoint that is right now...).

that list isn't even fun or fluffy for any legion or warband so it can't even claim beeing fitting and that was more or less what people had to play because the rest of the book was so underpowered that you crippled your own player agency just thinking about including them.


Edit:
The same though is true for later on for GK, go use baby carrier was the standard answer for a long time. X psy y unit and pray that you don't get fethed.
Or in other words GW's failure (permanent maybee added) at decent internal balance is a massive issue for many factions. GK are just another one.

ohh Agreed. I've often commented that the best codex I've ever seen from GW was the sisters of battle codex it had great internal balance in that everything was useful, and the army seemed strong without being over whelmingly so.

BrianDavion wrote:


ohh Agreed. I've often commented that the best codex I've ever seen from GW was the sisters of battle codex it had great internal balance in that everything was useful, and the army seemed strong without being over whelmingly so.

The current Adepta Sororitas codex is amazing, probably my favorite one so far.

Truth is, GW can balance one faction with 30ish datasheets and tons of units that have basically the same stateline (T3 1W 3+ or tanks with T7-T8 3+) but don't compete with each other for the same job because it's way easier than balancing factions with 2x or 3x datasheets plus much more variety in terms of statelines.

It's also one of the reasons why I'm against condensing standalone factions into the same codex. I think it would be way easier to have a well balanced SM army if it "only" had 40-50 datasheets. Otherwise there would always be dozens of units that never see the table because there are two or three other units that could do the same job but better. Great external balance can certainly still be achieved for a faction with 150ish datasheets, but some decent internal balance is flat out impossible to design.

I preferred when grey knights were pawns of the inquisition, honestly. A pet chapter that yes, is all psykers and given disproportionate gear, but at the same time are put through significantly more intense brainwashing and warding tattoos and such so that they don’t have the individuality to fall or to question any but the most blatantly radical inquisitor.

Muscle lackeys with shiny toys, not an independent force.

yeah, if an army's gotta be made up of over powered gak I'd much rather it function and look like the army is supposed to instead of spamming one or two weird niche broken things

One has to remember the time period were talking here. 40K just moved out of the RPG setting of 2nd edition and all the lore became solidified to what we know today. much of 3rd and 3.5 had rules and army restrictions directly locked into the lore. it made every faction unique in it's own way. but also useful while staying loyal to the lore. something you just cannot do with a resource mechanic like stratagems.

GKs for all intents and purposes were ONLY supposed to come out to fight chaos and demons just like in the books, which is why the 3rd ed codex for them was such a fine counter to the chaos dex of the same edition. as according to the lore they worked more as a strike force that could come to the aid of an imperial faction so making a full army out of them was an option but they worked better in the allied role. especially when a grand master and his 9 man terminator retinue was pushing over 650 points when the game was still standard at 1,750

I still have and use many of these old codexes when we play our hybrid 5th edition games.
for 3rd ed my favorites are
.white scars(index astartes)
.dark angels mini dex
.demon hunters
.witch hunters
.chaos (3.5)
.imperial fists-when it was still all about being siege masters (index astartes)

4th and 5th better represented many of the other factions while still maintaining quite a bit of the lore based rules.

changemod wrote:
I preferred when grey knights were pawns of the inquisition, honestly. A pet chapter that yes, is all psykers and given disproportionate gear, but at the same time are put through significantly more intense brainwashing and warding tattoos and such so that they don’t have the individuality to fall or to question any but the most blatantly radical inquisitor.

Muscle lackeys with shiny toys, not an independent force.

I like that interpretation too, but the post-5e GK fans probably don't.

 aphyon wrote:

yeah, if an army's gotta be made up of over powered gak I'd much rather it function and look like the army is supposed to instead of spamming one or two weird niche broken things

GKs for all intents and purposes were ONLY supposed to come out to fight chaos and demons just like in the books, which is why the 3rd ed codex for them was such a fine counter to the chaos dex of the same edition.

The problem of an army that specially tailored to counter another faction is that it becomes not fun to pay. Or you either play against this faction and have a game-winning advantage or you either not and you pay for a premium price for a skill that you won't use at all in this match.

The concept is nice but it only works if all the armies follow the same idea and therefore the whole game has a rock paper scissor balance. Just making an army like this when all the other factions are tailored to fight against anything is not really a good concept imao.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The inquisition is getting a codex right after this first batch.

What's the source on this, Xeno?

@Umbros - As far as I recall, last time anyone had the chance to ask the question, the answer on GK Primaris was still a hard "no".

There is no source for this. If a book which functioned like an Inquisition dex existed, it would be an Imperial Agents dex that included Inquisition. It would not be an Inquisition dex. Personally, I do believe we will get an IA dex, but there has been nothing to suggest it, other than the fact that a) IA rules are currently spread all over the place, and COULD be consolidated and b) the was an IA pdf for Apocalypse (it was a) free and b) awesome).

Chambers Militant (GK, DW and Sisters) need not be in such a book, and likely would not be. There may be a resurrection of the Chamber Militant concept (ie. Inquisitors confer the quarry rule to any of Chamber Militant unit in their army), and there may be a new character or unit for each Chamber that can only be included in Chamber armies if other Inquisition units are also present. These are the only ways in which an IA dex could incorporate Chambers, and there is no guarantee that such a book would incorporate chambers at all.

Some have suggested "fixing" the Inquisition by recombining them with their original chambers all in one book. The types of folks who make this suggestion tend to be the types that prefer balance to flavour; these same people often suggest the removal of subfaction traits and mechanics from all dexes, and the absorption of all snowflake marines into a single Ubermarine dex. I recognize the validity of the concept from the point of view of balance, though I personally prefer Flavour to Balance, so all of these things are ideas that I personally HATE.

Now back to OP: I have the GK dex, and I bought their PA too. I don't have a lot of GK models, and I haven't played them- I bought those books because I love the Inquisition, and I still respect the Chamber Militant concept, even if GW has chosen to minimize it. But as I recall, all GK still are Psykers, and so are still different from all other marines; I further remember that upon release in 8th, being all psykers was awesome enough on the battlefield that GW felt the need to nerf them, and that after the nerf, they were among the weakest factions of the game. Then PA dropped, and they got some of their awesomeness back, and that while not OP, they were at least competitive once more.

I don't know what's changed since then to alter that. Did the new SM codex make any other marine army all psychic? Did it prevent GK from being all psychic? What are the specific changes in 9th that have made GK less unique?

 aphyon wrote:
GKs for all intents and purposes were ONLY supposed to come out to fight chaos and demons just like in the books, which is why the 3rd ed codex for them was such a fine counter to the chaos dex of the same edition. as according to the lore they worked more as a strike force that could come to the aid of an imperial faction so making a full army out of them was an option but they worked better in the allied role. especially when a grand master and his 9 man terminator retinue was pushing over 650 points when the game was still standard at 1,750.

Oddly enough, both the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters books both gave reasons why they would be fighting Xenos as much as their usual suspects. The Avatar of Khaine and the Nightbringer sure look like Greater Daemons, and Eldar Farseers are definitely Wiches. That sort of thing.

Some of it, I feel, is the dulling-down of psychic powers. A bunch of different ways to say an enemy unit takes 2-4 MW just isn't inspiring, and losing the ability to cast the same power more than once further dilutes the impact.

psipso wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

yeah, if an army's gotta be made up of over powered gak I'd much rather it function and look like the army is supposed to instead of spamming one or two weird niche broken things

GKs for all intents and purposes were ONLY supposed to come out to fight chaos and demons just like in the books, which is why the 3rd ed codex for them was such a fine counter to the chaos dex of the same edition.

The problem of an army that specially tailored to counter another faction is that it becomes not fun to pay. Or you either play against this faction and have a game-winning advantage or you either not and you pay for a premium price for a skill that you won't use at all in this match.

The concept is nice but it only works if all the armies follow the same idea and therefore the whole game has a rock paper scissor balance. Just making an army like this when all the other factions are tailored to fight against anything is not really a good concept imao.

As noted by the other post that's not completely true for the 3rd ed setting. any psyker heavy force like eldar would also let the GKs shine as they passively ignore all effects of psychic abilities not directed specifically at them (the latter they can counter with their psychic hood), and having hammerhand give them strength 10 power weapons that still strike at initiative isn't a small thing either. it makes them good against vehicles including up to the max AV 14, monsterous creatures and massed infantry equally. they just really shine the most against forces aligned with chaos. considering all the toys that chaos codex took it was good to have a counter option since they could be allied with any imperial army like guard, sisters and various space marine chapters.

 aphyon wrote:

psipso wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

yeah, if an army's gotta be made up of over powered gak I'd much rather it function and look like the army is supposed to instead of spamming one or two weird niche broken things

GKs for all intents and purposes were ONLY supposed to come out to fight chaos and demons just like in the books, which is why the 3rd ed codex for them was such a fine counter to the chaos dex of the same edition.

The problem of an army that specially tailored to counter another faction is that it becomes not fun to pay. Or you either play against this faction and have a game-winning advantage or you either not and you pay for a premium price for a skill that you won't use at all in this match.

The concept is nice but it only works if all the armies follow the same idea and therefore the whole game has a rock paper scissor balance. Just making an army like this when all the other factions are tailored to fight against anything is not really a good concept imao.

As noted by the other post that's not completely true for the 3rd ed setting. any psyker heavy force like eldar would also let the GKs shine as they passively ignore all effects of psychic abilities not directed specifically at them (the latter they can counter with their psychic hood), and having hammerhand give them strength 10 power weapons that still strike at initiative isn't a small thing either. it makes them good against vehicles including up to the max AV 14, monsterous creatures and massed infantry equally. they just really shine the most against forces aligned with chaos. considering all the toys that chaos codex took it was good to have a counter option since they could be allied with any imperial army like guard, sisters and various space marine chapters.

I kind of forget, but wasn't there also some rules that when you fielded Grey Knights in your Daemonhunters army, your opponent could just take a bunch of daemons? Its been awhile since I broke out the old book to read through but I vaguely remember something about that to balance out a little bit at how good they were at killing specifically Daemons/Chaos.

Your probably thinking of daemonic infestation.

When GKs are on the table, a player that has lesser demons gain the sustained assault rule.

Yeah. The old rule for GKs were glorious - plus, Daemonhunters was a much more well-rounded book. Breaking GK out into their own faction was bleh, and I believe the same as deathwatch. Unlike Sisters, they were never conceived as independent factions originally.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. The old rule for GKs were glorious - plus, Daemonhunters was a much more well-rounded book. Breaking GK out into their own faction was bleh, and I believe the same as deathwatch. Unlike Sisters, they were never conceived as independent factions originally.

Yeah. At this point with a full-on sisters codex and Deathwatch becoming much closer/aligned to Codex: Space Marines, I'd say Grey Knights would really benefit from being Daemonhunters again. Plus you could do some fluff stuff citing their Inquisition allegiance as their reason for no primaris, etc.

The thing is, most people that likes and plays grey knights like the giant silver paladins on space killing demons, not for their army to be the lackeys of some bald guy with a cigar that has come straight out of a comic from the 78, and not one of the good ones. Inquisition has a much more niche appealing , even if on the internet and in forums specialized about this, they are the most vocal.

The same goes for Deathwatch, and the same goes for Sisters of Battle (Most People want to play sisters of battle, not some fat priests commanding woman with human rabble), no matter how many times Inquisitor lovers try to arguee otherwise.

Right but like, surely those people would find a way to play if GW /hadn't/ broken them out?

That's like saying Imperial Guard Infantry Squads should be their own army, because some players can't envision them as lackeys to an uncaring bureaucracy, lol.

(SOB were never fat priests commanding women with human rabble since their inception).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right but like, surely those people would find a way to play if GW /hadn't/ broken them out?

That's like saying Imperial Guard Infantry Squads should be their own army, because some players can't envision them as lackeys to an uncaring bureaucracy, lol.

(SOB were never fat priests commanding women with human rabble since their inception).

They are a chapter of space marines, that follow pre cognition seers direction where and when to attack. They don't just fight demons, they also purge populations that could feed or start a demon incrusion, and unlike bombing it from orbit they are more precise, don't destroy as much of the infrastructure or cause the opening of a small warp gate if too many people get killed too fast in one specific location.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right but like, surely those people would find a way to play if GW /hadn't/ broken them out?

That's like saying Imperial Guard Infantry Squads should be their own army, because some players can't envision them as lackeys to an uncaring bureaucracy, lol.

(SOB were never fat priests commanding women with human rabble since their inception).

Thats nothing like that because the difference between both (gk and inquisiton) is much bigger than infantry squads. I mean, for example, we could arguee dark eldar would benefit from being splitted in three factions (wytches, wracks and covens) with proper rules and support to represent them as their own forces and then being able to be allied. Of course it could all be done in the same book, with excelent rules and sinergyes but normally it is not proposed like that, when people want unification in a book they always want for something to be taken of other armies.

I'm fairly ignorant on imperial factions, but couldn't the GK mechanically be custodes+psykers? Both seem to have a few parallels between them.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I'm fairly ignorant on imperial factions, but couldn't the GK mechanically be custodes+psykers? Both seem to have a few parallels between them.

They should be Loyalist thousand sons. Leave anti demon stuff for narrative and their fluff, and just make them elite psyker space marines.

Karol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right but like, surely those people would find a way to play if GW /hadn't/ broken them out?

That's like saying Imperial Guard Infantry Squads should be their own army, because some players can't envision them as lackeys to an uncaring bureaucracy, lol.

(SOB were never fat priests commanding women with human rabble since their inception).

They are a chapter of space marines, that follow pre cognition seers direction where and when to attack. They don't just fight demons, they also purge populations that could feed or start a demon incrusion, and unlike bombing it from orbit they are more precise, don't destroy as much of the infrastructure or cause the opening of a small warp gate if too many people get killed too fast in one specific location.

Hrm, generally by the time the Grey Knights arrive somewhere, any concerns about saving infrastructure or whatnot are long gone, the GK's are the one's that show up when stuff has already hit the fan. I don't recall any fluff of them pre-emptively striking a world and purging its population or something themselves without something already being present, at least that I can recall or find from a casual reading of a couple codexes, there's always a powerful daemon that is manifesting or other shennanigans in progress, and inevitably ends with exterminatus or something (e.g. Raxos). The overwhelmingly vast majority of their fluff otherwise is the GK's reacting to events unfolding or being dispatched by the Inquisition. The Grey Knights also don't ever appear to concern themselves with destruction to infrastructure, readily sanctioning the annihilation of anything remotely touched by the Warp.

 Galas wrote:
The thing is, most people that likes and plays grey knights like the giant silver paladins on space killing demons, not for their army to be the lackeys of some bald guy with a cigar that has come straight out of a comic from the 78, and not one of the good ones. Inquisition has a much more niche appealing , even if on the internet and in forums specialized about this, they are the most vocal.

The same goes for Deathwatch, and the same goes for Sisters of Battle (Most People want to play sisters of battle, not some fat priests commanding woman with human rabble), no matter how many times Inquisitor lovers try to arguee otherwise.

Being lackeys was part of what made them potentially interesting though, without that they’re just Bettermarines with a drab paint job.

Upsides without downsides makes a chapter less interesting, not more.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't recall any fluff of them pre-emptively striking a world and purging its population or something themselves without something already being present, at least that I can recall or find from a casual reading of a couple codexes, there's always a powerful daemon that is manifesting or other shennanigans in progress, and inevitably ends with exterminatus or something (e.g. Raxos).

It's worth noting that there is previous fluff (I think 5th ed Codex?) that points to them using scrying and other methods to determine where stuff is soon going to hit the fan, and that's what allows them to actually be in the right place at the right time (as opposed to potentially being waaaay too late to respond by the time they get the no-doubt-interrupted Astropath call for help).
So I'm sure there are instances where they've turned up and purged somewhere to stop that threat from even appearing, Minority Report style - it's just that those instances don't make for as exciting fluff as daemon battles.

changemod wrote:
Being lackeys was part of what made them potentially interesting though, without that they’re just Bettermarines with a drab paint job.
Upsides without downsides makes a chapter less interesting, not more.

For me I always saw them as an extension of the Inquisition, rather than being lackeys to it. Like, if the Grey Knights suddenly turned up on a particular Inquisitor's doorstep with the 41st millennium's equivalent of a warrant, other Inquisitors would take their accusations seriously.
But for me what really makes the Chapter interesting - and this isn't something that they've lost over time - is their use of mystical magic in applied, measured ways that you would usually associate with scientific methods.
Far from magic and psychic power being this strange, hocus-pocus, foolishly-wielded dangerous weapon, that threatens to consume the Knights almost as much as their enemies... which is often the case with pretty much all other Imperial psykers, including many Inquisitors... it's used pragmatically, and specifically because it works. They're not beholden to using it just because they think they should, like the Mechanicus with all their sacred unguents and whatnot.

changemod wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The thing is, most people that likes and plays grey knights like the giant silver paladins on space killing demons, not for their army to be the lackeys of some bald guy with a cigar that has come straight out of a comic from the 78, and not one of the good ones. Inquisition has a much more niche appealing , even if on the internet and in forums specialized about this, they are the most vocal.

The same goes for Deathwatch, and the same goes for Sisters of Battle (Most People want to play sisters of battle, not some fat priests commanding woman with human rabble), no matter how many times Inquisitor lovers try to arguee otherwise.

Being lackeys was part of what made them potentially interesting though, without that they’re just Bettermarines with a drab paint job.

Upsides without downsides makes a chapter less interesting, not more.

Maybe for some people more invested in the narrative. Personally I prefer the more mundane and flawed design for anything I enjoy, thats why I prefer the flawed Dark Angels that are following a fault tradition without even knowing if they are in the right than the new HH version of "they are totally correct the fallen are 100% caos worshipers". So I actually agree with you about my personal tastes.

But for most players, I will make something that is severly punished on the internet. A generalization!

Most players that want and like to play Sisters of Battle, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights... want and like to play Sisters of Battle, Deathwatch and Grey Knights. Not inquisition. Not the eclesiarchy.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't recall any fluff of them pre-emptively striking a world and purging its population or something themselves without something already being present, at least that I can recall or find from a casual reading of a couple codexes, there's always a powerful daemon that is manifesting or other shennanigans in progress, and inevitably ends with exterminatus or something (e.g. Raxos).

It's worth noting that there is previous fluff (I think 5th ed Codex?) that points to them using scrying and other methods to determine where stuff is soon going to hit the fan, and that's what allows them to actually be in the right place at the right time (as opposed to potentially being waaaay too late to respond by the time they get the no-doubt-interrupted Astropath call for help).
So I'm sure there are instances where they've turned up and purged somewhere to stop that threat from even appearing, Minority Report style - it's just that those instances don't make for as exciting fluff as daemon battles.

changemod wrote:
Being lackeys was part of what made them potentially interesting though, without that they’re just Bettermarines with a drab paint job.
Upsides without downsides makes a chapter less interesting, not more.

For me I always saw them as an extension of the Inquisition, rather than being lackeys to it. Like, if the Grey Knights suddenly turned up on a particular Inquisitor's doorstep with the 41st millennium's equivalent of a warrant, other Inquisitors would take their accusations seriously.
But for me what really makes the Chapter interesting - and this isn't something that they've lost over time - is their use of mystical magic in applied, measured ways that you would usually associate with scientific methods.
Far from magic and psychic power being this strange, hocus-pocus, foolishly-wielded dangerous weapon, that threatens to consume the Knights almost as much as their enemies... which is often the case with pretty much all other Imperial psykers, including many Inquisitors... it's used pragmatically, and specifically because it works. They're not beholden to using it just because they think they should, like the Mechanicus with all their sacred unguents and whatnot.

That's a take I hadn't heard before. I always understood the GK to be religious nutters, whose prayers to the Emperor happen to work, so more or less exactly like Ad Mech.
But then, my understanding of the GK is based on RT, not the various Retcons from later editions... and that they were a terribly minor faction that shouldn't have ever gotten the amount of book space they've received.
Amusing background, but terrible to have on the battlefield, much like the various (bad) attempts at Inquisition armies.

 Galas wrote:
...Most players that want and like to play Sisters of Battle, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights... want and like to play Sisters of Battle, Deathwatch and Grey Knights. Not inquisition. Not the eclesiarchy.

Great. Yay. Woo.

Point of order: You could play pure GK in the 3e Codex. You didn't have as many options as you have now, but there was nothing stopping you. If you want to play an Inquisition army now you need four army books (Inquisition, Guard, Assassins, plus whichever Order Militant) and so much detachment tax that there's really no point. "But I don't want to play the Inquisition!" is a great argument for you playing pure GK instead of the Inquisition, it isn't a great argument for not letting anyone else play the Inquisition.

aphyon wrote:Your probably thinking of daemonic infestation.

When GKs are on the table, a player that has lesser demons gain the sustained assault rule.

That is exactly what I was thinking of. Also after a quick glance in the book opponents of Daemonhunters could take generic lesser and greater daemons in their army with a stat block and point cost provided in the book.

AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
...Most players that want and like to play Sisters of Battle, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights... want and like to play Sisters of Battle, Deathwatch and Grey Knights. Not inquisition. Not the eclesiarchy.

Great. Yay. Woo.

Point of order: You could play pure GK in the 3e Codex. You didn't have as many options as you have now, but there was nothing stopping you. If you want to play an Inquisition army now you need four army books (Inquisition, Guard, Assassins, plus whichever Order Militant) and so much detachment tax that there's really no point. "But I don't want to play the Inquisition!" is a great argument for you playing pure GK instead of the Inquisition, it isn't a great argument for not letting anyone else play the Inquisition.

Funny story, first time I got into 40k (group kind of died off shortly so I only had a few models and a couple of games in using borrowed models), I specifically picked Daemonhunters because I loved how much variety it had. I remember having big plans for an Inquisitor, like 1 or 2 squads of Grey Knights, and then a bunch of inducted Imperial Guard. When I got back into the game back in 7th at the behest of my girlfriend, on glancing around I ended up just going straight Guard because I wasn't interested in a codex of only Grey Knights and did not want to buy several codices to take advantage of allies.

I have since obtained some Inquisition level models, but still have not grabbed any Grey Knights simply because of how starved for detachments they are. Fitting an Inquisitor alone is fairly easy, but say Acolytes or a Daemonhost, suddenly you need a full detachment. And inducted Guard? That is a detachment right there. Oh you wanted Stormtroopers with actual doctrines to go with your inducted Guard? Another detachment. Finally Grey Knights? Yup! Another detachment!

I still sometimes think of picking up a box of Grey Knights to throw onto the pile of shame for "later", but really at this point it would be for if I do some Oldhammer type game using 3rd or 4th.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Had to check the date of OP just to make sure this isn't Necromancy

Seriously though, 3rd edition had the best lore/feeling of the army, 5th had the best rules. Everything afterwards felt lacklustre (=unfun) to me.

I still got my fully painted army, but I'm going to sell it soon.

I mean it wouldn't be GK necromancy unless I was in the thread...