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Unpopular opinion?

Craftworld Eldar. They just don’t work for me, like, at all. They’ve barely evolved since Rogue Trader, and never quite play as portrayed in the background. They’re also an already dying race that’s hideously and laughably outnumbered.

 bullyboy wrote:
So the head of GW dies of a heart attack and his son with a real bad comb over comes into the board meeting and states that "you have to trim the fat. I'm yanking 5 armies from the 40K line...today, you guys figure it out". And just as he is leaving the board room, he turns and remarks "And no Bill, marine supplements count as a single choice, not one each....and I'm talking the ones from last year, not the ones coming out the next few months. get it done".

I go and talk to the board about how did this son even get that position straight out the gate, was there a committee to approve, was his obvious lack of suitability for the position taken into account, are they happy about it, and do they know he's about to screw with a sizeable chunk of the playerbase of what is far and away the company's most profitable game.
(starts singing) Bye-bye, baby, baby byeee-byeeeeeee...

But ok, say I'm forced some other way.
- roll up the supplements into the Marine Codex... allow more granular Character options to cover all the special characters' weird armaments. The book is going to be bigger from things like Deathwing/Ravenwing, Thunderwolves, Death Company etc - can't be helped.
- roll both Knights books into one
- roll Death Guard back into the Chaos Codex
- roll Thousand Sons back into the Chaos Codex
- roll Ynnari into the Craftworlds Codex, editing the Dark Eldar Codex in turn to allow some soup synergies
And presto - nobody loses their army.
Honestly, we all know what uproar it would cause by outright ditching any factions now - people still talk about the Squats, and were clamouring for a Sisters update for almost literal decades.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Consolidate instead of cutting. Knights->AdMech, GSC->Tyranids, Daemons->CSM. Scrap Ynnari, and do one "Talons of the Emperor" book for Custodes, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, and Assassins.

Agree with this one. They did some consolidation in AoS and it has made the factions stronger rather than weaker.

I'd consolidate the following:
Codex Aeldari - Contains all three Aeldari factions with sub-faction rules. Ynnari would serve as highlords like Nagash in Grand Alliance Death.
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.
Codex: Hive Fleets. GSC and Tyranids.
Codex: Armies of Chaos. DG and TSons would be elite sub-factions inside the larger book. Add Daemons and Chaos Knights and we got a stew goin'.
Codex: Cults of Mars. Ad Mech and Imperial Knights

Then we'd have individual codex left such as:
Codex Space Marines. Trim the fat /the supplements.
Codex Astra Militarum
Codex Sisters of Battle.
Codex: Necrons
Codex Tau
Codex Orks

This would leave us with a total of 11 Codexes instead of 22.

First of all I would get rid of Imperial Guard . They have no sense in the scale of the conflict we are playing in modern 40k. They are a skew army and impossible to balance. They are just too weak for the new standard of 2 wound space marines and super duper soldiers. Maybe allow Leman Russes to be taken as a Heavy Support choice for other imperial (aka space marine) factions because they are cool models but nothing more.
Maybe give Tempestus Scions alongside Bullgryns their own Codex because they are the only imperial guard models that actually look good and they are more reasonable in the power scale of modern 40k.

Second, Craftworld Eldar. Crappy design with crappy old models and rules that have never ever been balanced. Nobody in GW knows what to do with eldar model or rule wise. All of their units are the most representation of the Pendulum balance approach of GW, they exist on two states of being extremely OP or absolutely useless. Or thats what most eldar players (The 3 or 4 that exist and actually like the army and dont spam 20 year old resin models because they are OP) say so lets get put them out of their misery.

Orks and Tyranids are fun to kill so I would let them exist.

Next I would scrap Chaos Space Marines. Like, why? People would just use the normal codex space marine rules with their Chaos Models. Everyone would win from this trade. Chaos marines would stop crying about being lesser marines and would access to a ton of new rules to represent their own cool models and conversions.

I would be mercifull and gave a pardon to the last two armies.

For me, in order, it would be:

Knights
Chaos Knights
Custodes
Harlequins
No idea...probably the SM supplements

Knights just don't work for me at the scale of 40k. They're a skew list by design and are always going to be near-impossible to balance properly. Custodes are just dull and make little sense in the setting as a complete army, while also showing up the flaws in the way stats are used in the game system. Harlequins have fewer total unit entries than some armies have Special Characters. They're a strange army with such a tiny selection of units I don't know why they aren't just Elite choices for the two Eldar races like they used to be. I'd probably treat Custodes the same, BTW. Make them an Elite choice for Imperium armies, possibly limited to only 1 in their case.

The problem of the SM supplements is well-known. I'm not convinced the game would be so much better if they were scrapped but in the absence of a better contender for the 5th slot in the list I'd go with them. I do think this constant dividing of factions into more and more sub-factions is stifling player creativity when it comes to representing their chosen army on the battlefield and the SM supplements are probably the most egregious example, especially when it comes to things like Iron Hands or Imperial Fists. Those are armies it's more than possible to represent as just regular SM with a slant towards a certain playstyle, rather than needing a bunch of special rules to try to exploit.

Ynnari

Harlequins

Chaos Knights

Imperial Knights

Insert random SM supplement here

I mean ynnari if that's allowed. Sorry Ynnari fans, but it is just one box of miniatures.

But honestly, my desired consolidation has already happened. My five factions would be Deahtwatch Grey Knights Blood Angels Space Wolves and Dark Angels. Factions like Harlequins may be less popular but at least they bring a little bit of variety to the 47 flavors of vanilla that is the usual 40k faction breakdown.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.

Arguably the inquisitors/assassins would fit better into an expanded sisters of battle/witch hunter style codex, more even spread of units and theme.

Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...

I'm not against the idea some have put, of consolidating Knights into AdMech. That makes a fair amount of sense.
However, it does leave Chaos Knights out all on their lonesome - so in that vein I'd roll that into the Chaos Marine Codex, instead of throwing Daemons in there.

First I'd try to organize a strike. If that didn't work, I'd quit. Integrity is everything; there are other jobs.

Losing five factions would take this game back at least a decade. As a player, I would probably quit buying new products and "Freeze" the game at its current state. Most of the people I play with would probably be on board with that.

Imperial Guard (go play Bolt Action)

Thousand Sons (functioning traitor legions is for 30K and Ahriman doesn't even play with them anymore).

Death Guard (see above)

Custodes (Marines do fine ticking the "elite warriors" box)

Grey Knights (see above)

BrianDavion wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.

Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!

no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.

Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.

Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!

no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.

Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.

No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.

Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".

Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...

A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.

You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.

Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.

A.T. wrote:
Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.

Honestly, I'd take advantage of the 'supplements count as one' to take a hard look at SM data sheets.

Quite a few of the more 'unique' units could be moved to supplements for the chapters in them.

Group like chapters together, so instead of having a book for Iron Hands, and a book for Salamanders, you could have a 'Book of the Forge Marines" (Working title) that has those chapters, their specific relics/traits, and the units that fit them, such as say (to be hypothetical) thunderfire cannons, iron clad dreads, and centurians. Just toss in a line that a SM army could take 0-1 units from another supplemental in their army (one total, not one per supplemental) to keep legacy armies somewhat intact.

Other groupings could be "Most Tactical of Marines" (UM, IF, CF), "Special Marines" (WS, RG), and so on.

This doesn't cut anything out, but it makes the company more money on a product line that already is popular, while also making it easier (read cheaper) for the staff to do balance work (or possible for them to do it at all).

After that, just start turning smaller armies into similar supplemental, combined in books, such as Harliquins/Yinnari.

 Super Ready wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
So the head of GW dies of a heart attack and his son with a real bad comb over comes into the board meeting and states that "you have to trim the fat. I'm yanking 5 armies from the 40K line...today, you guys figure it out". And just as he is leaving the board room, he turns and remarks "And no Bill, marine supplements count as a single choice, not one each....and I'm talking the ones from last year, not the ones coming out the next few months. get it done".

I go and talk to the board about how did this son even get that position straight out the gate, was there a committee to approve, was his obvious lack of suitability for the position taken into account, are they happy about it, and do they know he's about to screw with a sizeable chunk of the playerbase of what is far and away the company's most profitable game.
(starts singing) Bye-bye, baby, baby byeee-byeeeeeee...

This is really the only sensible answer. GW isn't a family owned company.

Deathwatch
Grey Knights
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Custodes

Death to the snowflakes.

From a business perspective, GW painted themselves into a corner.

Like most factions-driven wargames, GW initially tried to keep release schedules even, but they quickly realized that the sales figures showed an unmistakeable preference for 1 faction out of many.

GW's attempt to square that circle was to split that one faction out into several different factions to split that massive demand, so that once again they could have an equivalency.

but that made 1/2 of the armies in the game variations on the exact same theme. What GW appears to be doing right now - reconsolidating the marines to create a concentrated class of consumer whales who will guzzle down any release no matter how derivative or low-effort so long as it's new, is the right decision from a business standpoint and a creative standpoint.

Releasing primaris stuff that every marine subfaction uses is much smarter from a business standpoint than releasing new, say, Dark Angels stuff.

I just wish they'd go the next logical step and ACTUALLY consolidate the books, rather than continuing to allow power armor to squat on the army release schedule indefinitely.

the_scotsman wrote:
From a business perspective, GW painted themselves into a corner.

Like most factions-driven wargames, GW initially tried to keep release schedules even, but they quickly realized that the sales figures showed an unmistakeable preference for 1 faction out of many.

GW's attempt to square that circle was to split that one faction out into several different factions to split that massive demand, so that once again they could have an equivalency.

but that made 1/2 of the armies in the game variations on the exact same theme. What GW appears to be doing right now - reconsolidating the marines to create a concentrated class of consumer whales who will guzzle down any release no matter how derivative or low-effort so long as it's new, is the right decision from a business standpoint and a creative standpoint.

Releasing primaris stuff that every marine subfaction uses is much smarter from a business standpoint than releasing new, say, Dark Angels stuff.

I just wish they'd go the next logical step and ACTUALLY consolidate the books, rather than continuing to allow power armor to squat on the army release schedule indefinitely.

Hence my squat list.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Honestly, I'd take advantage of the 'supplements count as one' to take a hard look at SM data sheets.

Quite a few of the more 'unique' units could be moved to supplements for the chapters in them.

Group like chapters together, so instead of having a book for Iron Hands, and a book for Salamanders, you could have a 'Book of the Forge Marines" (Working title) that has those chapters, their specific relics/traits, and the units that fit them, such as say (to be hypothetical) thunderfire cannons, iron clad dreads, and centurians. Just toss in a line that a SM army could take 0-1 units from another supplemental in their army (one total, not one per supplemental) to keep legacy armies somewhat intact.

Other groupings could be "Most Tactical of Marines" (UM, IF, CF), "Special Marines" (WS, RG), and so on.

This doesn't cut anything out, but it makes the company more money on a product line that already is popular, while also making it easier (read cheaper) for the staff to do balance work (or possible for them to do it at all).

It probably would lead to less money, thanks to not needing to buy multiple supplements. The whole point of these books is to make it so that players who like specific subfactions can get them without extraneous crap in there.

I'd make more supplements. Any army where I feasibly could swing it.
Drukhari can get a Coven, a Cult, and Kabal supplement--each one adding named characters, signature units and expanded rules for the subfactions.
Tau can get a Kroot and a Farsight Enclaves supplement. These ones would be kinda hefty I think.
Guard can get crazy here. Regimental Supplements with signature units, expanded rules, and named characters.
AdMech can get a Xenarites supplement book and an Explorator Fleets supplement book, each with named characters and some special rules.
Chaos Marines could stand to get a Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers, and then a Renegades supplement. Nameds, unit, special rules, the works. Renegades would be a good spot to add some 0-1 'modern age' Marine units into the mix.
Genestealer Cult and Tyranids could probably stand some goodness. I don't know how I would do it though.

I too would, instead of getting rid of whole armies, advocate to "trim the fat" be removing the load of unnecessary "doubles" or "multiples" in weapon and unit profiles. I think this might in the end come down to a similar trimming result.

For example: roll the imperial weaponry together. Currently entries for Bolters, Autocannons, (Heavy)flamers, Lascannons, Melters, Powerswords etc. appear in Codex Imperial Guard, Admech, SoB, Imperial Knights, all Marine Chapters etc. without any real gain in information. And a lot of those appear in very similar form in Chaos and other codices.
Also take a hard look at the dozends of SM Bolters and think which of those really have to be separate entries. If you are desperate enough to even think about killing of 5 armies you might as well think about rolling together for example IG Battlecannons and Vanquishers as one weapon with two different ammunitions, the same for the Eradicator and Demolisher.
Also take a look into those weapons that only appear on one single datasheet and think if that could not be replaced statswise by some other more popular option. The model can stay optically the same, but for example the Vulture Punisher and Leman Russ Punisher or Stormlord and Macharius Vulcan Megabolter don't have to be separate weapons.

And with datasheets: it would not be too hard to roll for example all Chimera based chassis into one , slightly bigger datasheet (Chimera, Basilisk, Manticore, Deathstrike, Hydra, Trojan, Salamander, Salamander Command...). The same might be possible for Landraider variants.

I think when you are finished with all that (which is a load of work of course) you might have shrinked the paperwork a similar ammount compared to removing five armies.

None of that is a good idea. You "shrinking the paperwork" does nothing other than make a convoluted mess.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I would combine anything in wearing power armor into Codex: Imperial Power Armor and Codex: Traitor Power Armor.

and would you provide a free forklift to transport that sizable tome?

Given that 85% of the content is identical or nearly so across most of these armies or are simple weapon/wargear/special rule/FoC swaps that could be managed by keyword, most of the extraneous pagespace would basically mostly be characters, so it wouldn't really need to be all that big, and even if 200-300 pages, that's basically the size of the 4E or 5E rulebook or a D&D players handbook, hardly trucklift worthy and well within the accepted size range for tabletop games.

 Dysartes wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.

Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!

no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.

Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.

No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.

Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".

Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...

A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.

You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.

Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.

A.T. wrote:
Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.

Sounds more like your own axe to grind. Someone stating that knights don't fit the theme isn't necessarily because they hate knights, they just think that they probably shouldn't be on a table 44"x60", and it's hard to disagree with that.

As for sensible answers, Dakka is the last place place I would come to for anything that is deemed sensible.

 Eldarsif wrote:


Agree with this one. They did some consolidation in AoS and it has made the factions stronger rather than weaker.

I'd consolidate the following:
Codex Aeldari - Contains all three Aeldari factions with sub-faction rules. Ynnari would serve as highlords like Nagash in Grand Alliance Death.
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.
Codex: Hive Fleets. GSC and Tyranids.
Codex: Armies of Chaos. DG and TSons would be elite sub-factions inside the larger book. Add Daemons and Chaos Knights and we got a stew goin'.
Codex: Cults of Mars. Ad Mech and Imperial Knights

Then we'd have individual codex left such as:
Codex Space Marines. Trim the fat /the supplements.
Codex Astra Militarum
Codex Sisters of Battle.
Codex: Necrons
Codex Tau
Codex Orks

This would leave us with a total of 11 Codexes instead of 22.

I see no foult in this list, it is good if it was true.

Karol wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:


Agree with this one. They did some consolidation in AoS and it has made the factions stronger rather than weaker.

I'd consolidate the following:
Codex Aeldari - Contains all three Aeldari factions with sub-faction rules. Ynnari would serve as highlords like Nagash in Grand Alliance Death.
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.
Codex: Hive Fleets. GSC and Tyranids.
Codex: Armies of Chaos. DG and TSons would be elite sub-factions inside the larger book. Add Daemons and Chaos Knights and we got a stew goin'.
Codex: Cults of Mars. Ad Mech and Imperial Knights

Then we'd have individual codex left such as:
Codex Space Marines. Trim the fat /the supplements.
Codex Astra Militarum
Codex Sisters of Battle.
Codex: Necrons
Codex Tau
Codex Orks

This would leave us with a total of 11 Codexes instead of 22.

I see no foult in this list, it is good if it was true.

I second this. It's similar to what I was saying, but with less words and less books. Each codex would be a damn tome, but I wouldn't mind so much.

Dysartes wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.

Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!

no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.

Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.

No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.

Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".

Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...

A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.

You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.

Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.

A.T. wrote:
Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.

Exalted! Well said Dysartes! As well as Brian, PenitentJake, and Super Ready. This entire thread is just another example of people telling other people they shouldn't be able to play with their favorite toys. If that's your problem, just don't play with people who play with those toys. Problem solved.

PenitentJake wrote:First I'd try to organize a strike. If that didn't work, I'd quit. Integrity is everything; there are other jobs.

Losing five factions would take this game back at least a decade. As a player, I would probably quit buying new products and "Freeze" the game at its current state. Most of the people I play with would probably be on board with that.

Right. If this hypothetical spoiled brat fires you, just get another job. Who wants to work for some punk who never did anything to earn his wealth and power in the first place? Companies who follow such leadership die soon enough, which would have you finding another job in the long run anyway.

Anyone who says "they wouldn't mind" is lying or never had to play with a physical copy of an Imperial Armour book.

Considering most suggestions go along with Consolidation with the parameter of needed customizability to represent lists propperly it would be the least painfull way.

this thread is clearly a mindexperiment and to be taken as such, frankly i probably should've further explained f.e. my own bid as to why and what.
i'd like to preface this with the fact, that as someone that just basically lost his faction ruleswise it hurts regardless out of such if i were indeed in this scenario and forced into this at gunpoint atleast i could do it in a way that preserves the possibilities intact for the players at hand and in a way that i think personally would be good for the game healthwise, for if i have to sacrifice atleast it should not be without gains.

Knights of any couleur / Superheavies.


GK, DW, Supplement marines and other special marines.


Ynnari, DG, TS, Harlequins.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right. If this hypothetical spoiled brat fires you, just get another job. Who wants to work for some punk who never did anything to earn his wealth and power in the first place? Companies who follow such leadership die soon enough, which would have you finding another job in the long run anyway.

If only this were actually true lol. I guess like, just try to never google what percentage of CEOs come from households that made more than a million dollars a year?

It's not usually direct nepotism, though there are some pretty obviously high profile examples of cartoonish nepotism in the world today with people whose qualification is "my daddy is the boss" but it's almost always "five members of the board are my daddy's country club buddies and they personally vouched for me having done such a good job chatting them up at our gala luncheons so I got the job."

The Onion video of "CEO's son tells his tale about how he became the new CEO after his father retired" will never get old.