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Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/25 15:00:26
My five picks would be the Chaos and Imperial Knights which should be Lords of War for the Adeptus Mechanicus and Chaos Space Marine respectively. The Ynnari should be rolled into the Harlequin and add some Corsair stuff to make a new Errant Aeldari faction. Deathwatch Marines should vanish and just become a sub-faction of vanilla Space Marines without need of their own codex. Chaos Demon should be absorbed by the Cult Chaos Marine faction like @dan2026 suggested (great idea btw). Blood Angels and Dark Angels could be rolled back as a standard subfaction of the Space Marines since they are almost identical to the vanilla one's. All inquisition stuff, including assassins should be rolled into Kill Team and only have a barebone datasheet for use in normal games if need be.
dan2026 wrote: The Deamons book as is makes no sense, in that it is basically four small armies that don't play well together.
The original premise of chaos was that the faction represented disorganised warbands and allies of convienence pull together under the command of a suitably intimidating warmaster, or in the case of just daemons the chaotic and dispirate forces of the warp that had poured through some crack in reality.
Hence 'chaos', rather than the colour-matched rigid and ordered forces of the loyalists.
dan2026 wrote: The Deamons book as is makes no sense, in that it is basically four small armies that don't play well together.
The original premise of chaos was that the faction represented disorganised warbands and allies of convienence pull together under the command of a suitably intimidating warmaster, or in the case of just daemons the chaotic and dispirate forces of the warp that had poured through some crack in reality.
Hence 'chaos', rather than the colour-matched rigid and ordered forces of the loyalists.
Uh... no. The first chaos lists were legion/chapter specific (black legion, world eaters and emperor's children), with god-specific demons for the WE and EC. Black legion could opt for any demons regardless of allegiance, but that was a specific rule just for them, because their original fluff was they jumped from god to god after things went badly.
The daemonic legions lists were even more constrained.
Chaos has been very rigid and color coded from the start.
The only exception was pure random (d100 and d1000 rolls) warbands that you could bring in some cases, that varied from really ridiculous to complete garbage, but those were dropped really fast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/25 22:46:40
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
Oh gosh, this discussion again. The only person who had the legitimacy to copyright to the term "Space Marine" was the late U.S. astronaut, John Glenn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/26 05:44:57
Voss wrote: Uh... no. The first chaos lists were legion/chapter specific (black legion, world eaters and emperor's children), with god-specific demons for the WE and EC
I generally start with 2nd edition and epic when considering the structure of 40k armies - otherwise space marines are those guys with jetbikes and shuriken catapults being hunted down by the sisters of battle, their daemon-weapon wielding half-eldar inquisitor lord, and a squad of grey knight techmarines with jump packs.
As for 5 armies.
1) Fold marine factions into supplements - done
2) Fold sisters of silence into talons - being done
3) Fold inquisition into witch hunters - because emperor knows they aren't getting any help as it is
4) Fold chaos factions into supplements - only fair
5) A toss up between the minor xenos. Ynnari into harlequins perhaps since they are both eldar/DE connecting factions
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/26 10:04:19
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Space Marines just had everything of those consolidated into one book, leaving anything separate from the main Marine units to supplements.
And yet we still have people saying that they haven't gone far enough, and want the various Chapters reduced to simple paint jobs, let alone armies.
Y'all would have loved the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex, that removed any and all Legion abilities from our Chaos armies.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
....They did trademark those names. During the suit, the names "eldar", "Space marines", "Imperial Guard", and "Stormtroopers" came under dispute, and the court ruled that GW could not base a claim of IP theft on the third party seller using any of those terms.
So all of them got changed, and then trademarked in their new form.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Space Marines just had everything of those consolidated into one book, leaving anything separate from the main Marine units to supplements.
And yet we still have people saying that they haven't gone far enough, and want the various Chapters reduced to simple paint jobs, let alone armies.
Y'all would have loved the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex, that removed any and all Legion abilities from our Chaos armies.
Bear in mind that this thread is basically placing the people in the fictional dilemma to have to squat 5 armies of 40k. That in this case I would begin by squatting the space marines chapters with less flavor this doesn't mean that I would like this to happen.
At least for me, I think that the variety of factions is something great and I would like to happen to other factions, like craft world supplements, tau sept's, Tyranid fleets, etc...
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
....They did trademark those names. During the suit, the names "eldar", "Space marines", "Imperial Guard", and "Stormtroopers" came under dispute, and the court ruled that GW could not base a claim of IP theft on the third party seller using any of those terms.
So all of them got changed, and then trademarked in their new form.
I guess that makes sense. But it still doesn't extend to the underlying concepts, which is pretty hollow, imo.
I’d squat imperium armies and put them all in a codex imperium.
Space marines would still have a codex and then a supplement only for the 8 loyalist chapters, any successors are then in the realm of home brew or counts as.
This probably covers more than 5 current individual armies. I wouldn’t squat and non imperial armies.
The Deamons book as is makes no sense, in that it is basically four small armies that don't play well together.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Chaos should be done like in AoS, a book for each GOD (Demons+Legion) and then a generic book for the rest of the legions (Word Bearers, Alpha, Black, Night Lords, etc...) and Renegades. The amount of people that play multi god armies is extremely small and if you want to do that you can take multiple detachments or having rules in the Chaos Marines book for using auxiliary or summoning demons and mixing marks and whatever.
The Chaos Gods have extremely different aesthetics and extremely different play stiles, so is extrange for somebody to like more than a couple of them. GW abandoned in AoS to try and shoehorn Demon players in using mixed god armies that look and play like ass, and instead gave each God a complete force of demons+mortals, without taking away the possibility of making mixed god armies, they even have a specific allegiance for that with Bel'akor.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/26 13:01:45
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Night Lords and Alpha Legion are very much aligned to Chaos. They just aren't aligned to a particular Ruinous Power.
The Night Lords have been portrayed as godless nihilists since 2nd edition. They don't worship any of the chaos gods, at most they'll use chaos as a weapon. And even then they look upon those that worship them as fools and weaklings. This has been stated in multiple codexes and other sources.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Night Lords and Alpha Legion are very much aligned to Chaos. They just aren't aligned to a particular Ruinous Power.
The Night Lords have been portrayed as godless nihilists since 2nd edition. They don't worship any of the chaos gods, at most they'll use chaos as a weapon. And even then they look upon those that worship them as fools and weaklings. This has been stated in multiple codexes and other sources.
Which is the point of my statement.
They're not, as some people like to pretend they are, just Imperial Marines with spikes. They've thrown their lot in with Chaos, they're committed to tearing down the Imperium as an act of petty vengeance and spite.
Doesn't mean they go on the weekend retreats or join the company softball team though.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Night Lords and Alpha Legion are very much aligned to Chaos. They just aren't aligned to a particular Ruinous Power.
The Night Lords have been portrayed as godless nihilists since 2nd edition. They don't worship any of the chaos gods, at most they'll use chaos as a weapon. And even then they look upon those that worship them as fools and weaklings. This has been stated in multiple codexes and other sources.
Which is the point of my statement.
They're not, as some people like to pretend they are, just Imperial Marines with spikes. They've thrown their lot in with Chaos, they're committed to tearing down the Imperium as an act of petty vengeance and spite.
Doesn't mean they go on the weekend retreats or join the company softball team though.
- Chaos Knights (no need for it's own codex)
- Custodes (move to legends/scenario/index only)
- Deathwatch (move to legends/scenario/index only)
- Ynnari
- Harlequins
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Space Marines just had everything of those consolidated into one book, leaving anything separate from the main Marine units to supplements.
And yet we still have people saying that they haven't gone far enough, and want the various Chapters reduced to simple paint jobs, let alone armies.
Y'all would have loved the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex, that removed any and all Legion abilities from our Chaos armies.
The real problem with the 4th Edition Codex was it was written pretty underpowered. Leave the rose tinted glasses at home when trying to refer to 3.5 please. The codex was awful for crunch no matter how much you scream "fluff".
The only person who had the legitimacy to copyright to the term "Space Marine" was the late U.S. astronaut, John Glenn.
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