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Damned cooler heads prevailing. I was all excited to whip out some poorly veiled metaphors. Oh well.

For what it’s worth, my responses aren’t vindictive. I’m approaching this from a “would you rather” perspective. *If* I had to cut 5 model lines, those are the ones I’d choose. Not out of spite towards players, just the lines I’d choose because the magic of the scenario is that you have to choose.

I *really* like the GK aesthetic, and I normally hate overly detailed models. But I would cut them because they feel like an incomplete faction that never became a fully fledged force.

If I were to apply an entirely arbitrary metric, it would be...

Are there at *least* 2 unique-to-that-Faction choices in each FOC slot? For GK, they have 2 not-exactly-unique troops. They have 1 fast attack choice, and it’s just the troops with jump packs. Their elites are just Troops with more guns, or veteran (troops) terminators. I think they have 1 unique Heavy Support choice in the Dread Knight.

Harlies? Do they even have more than one infantry unit?

Knights have what, 3 chassis altogether? Small, Medium, and Heavy Knights?

I think that the only Unique mode in the Deathwatch is the Corvus Blackstar? Add that to the Vanilla dex, give them rules to take Vets as Troops (as part of their chapter tactic?) and boom.

It’s Factions like that, that just feel incomplete. Like no matter what, you will just be a “lesser” version of a more complete mode line.

 jobalisk wrote:
hmm. I'd say try to bring things back to how they were at the end of 2nd ed. GSC are part of tyranids...

GSC were not part of the Tyranids at the end of 2nd Ed. The Genestealer Cult list was separate to the main Tyranid list.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There are lots of ways to accomplish either or both of the societal infiltrators and/or Aliens Xenomorphs themes without having unfortunate messages.

You are literally the first person I've ever seen mention the idea that GSC has an "unfortunate message". I'd posit that this "unfortunate message" is something that virtually no one ever thinks about, let alone accepts as true.

Next you'll be trying to tell us that Slaanesh is "queer coded".

 greatbigtree wrote:

Harlies? Do they even have more than one infantry unit?

I'm hoping they include the Mime and Virtuoso for 9th edition. Personally I believe that the faction needs something...BIG. Most factions have something big and expensive to add to their collections as a center piece, but the most is a Voidweaver. A wraith-puppet-lord thingy would be appreciated Geedubs!

I will also fall off my chair laughing should the news come in that the first xenos codex of 2021 is for Harlequins.

SamusDrake wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:

Harlies? Do they even have more than one infantry unit?

I'm hoping they include the Mime and Virtuoso for 9th edition. Personally I believe that the faction needs something...BIG. Most factions have something big and expensive to add to their collections as a center piece, but the most is a Voidweaver. A wraith-puppet-lord thingy would be appreciated Geedubs!

I will also fall off my chair laughing should the news come in that the first xenos codex of 2021 is for Harlequins.

given they only got a WD update for PA I'd not be too suprised TBH

BrianDavion wrote:


given they only got a WD update for PA I'd not be too suprised TBH

Totally! I had a feeling the Deathwatch and Harlequins would be amongst the first codices, so hopefully that will be the case.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Are there at *least* 2 unique-to-that-Faction choices in each FOC slot?

That would eliminate -

All marine chapter books

Deathwatch

Grey Knights

Sisters of Battle

Sisters of Silence (except as part of the talons of the emperor)

Inquisition

Assassins

All kill team/blackstone models/mini-factions that don't attach to others

Knights / Chaos knights

Harlequins

Ynnari

Genestealer cults and (forgeworld) Custodes have 2+ in each slot.

SamusDrake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


given they only got a WD update for PA I'd not be too suprised TBH

Totally! I had a feeling the Deathwatch and Harlequins would be amongst the first codices, so hopefully that will be the case.

watch the rumored dark eldar mini turn out to actually be a Harli mini

BrianDavion wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


given they only got a WD update for PA I'd not be too suprised TBH

Totally! I had a feeling the Deathwatch and Harlequins would be amongst the first codices, so hopefully that will be the case.

watch the rumored dark eldar mini turn out to actually be a Harli mini

talk about teasing for DE then

Blood pressure rising...teeth grinding.....deep breaths

It's 99% gonna be Lelith Hesperax though, no...? What with the barbs in the hair and style of dagger.
So it's got to be a release for Dark El-

After battling and defeating Yvraine in the Crucibael during the Night of Revelations when Ynnead, the Aeldari god of the dead, partially awakened, Lelith has gone on to join forces with the Ynnari leader.
The Queen of Knives and her Wyches, along with allies from the craftworlds and Harlequin troupes, fight alongside the Ynnari.

I withdraw my statement, it's totes Harlequins.

 harlokin wrote:
Blood pressure rising...teeth grinding.....deep breaths

grab a gardening tool, reforge it into a poleweapon of your wish, form a Saubannerzug and threathen to burn down someth erm .... wait, sorry missed a page, that was for if you need money from geneva...

No i have no recommendation to avoid this rage if it would happen...

A.T. wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Are there at *least* 2 unique-to-that-Faction choices in each FOC slot?

That would eliminate -

All marine chapter books

Deathwatch

Grey Knights

Sisters of Battle

Sisters of Silence (except as part of the talons of the emperor)

Inquisition

Assassins

All kill team/blackstone models/mini-factions that don't attach to others

Knights / Chaos knights

Harlequins

Ynnari

Genestealer cults and (forgeworld) Custodes have 2+ in each slot.

Other than Sisters of Battle... I’d be comfortable with that list.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Unpopular opinion?

Craftworld Eldar. They just don’t work for me, like, at all. They’ve barely evolved since Rogue Trader, and never quite play as portrayed in the background. They’re also an already dying race that’s hideously and laughably outnumbered.

I've played them since 4th and love them to bits, but I have to say I agree. The lore/rules discrepancy has been a constant source of disappointment. The one or two viable janky tournament-tier builds combined with the rest of the codex being utter garbage each edition really takes the fun out of playing the army.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Unpopular opinion?

Craftworld Eldar. They just don’t work for me, like, at all. They’ve barely evolved since Rogue Trader, and never quite play as portrayed in the background. They’re also an already dying race that’s hideously and laughably outnumbered.

I've played them since 4th and love them to bits, but I have to say I agree. The lore/rules discrepancy has been a constant source of disappointment. The one or two viable janky tournament-tier builds combined with the rest of the codex being utter garbage each edition really takes the fun out of playing the army.

That's more of an argument for an update than a drop. It's not like are not a popular army to build, just not a popular army to play. All this wonderful history and tech, and Necrons out range them in almost every category. It's shameful.

5 armies that I would drop?

FANTASTIC!

#1 Astra Militarum - adding these in the first place basically demystified the Space Marines. They basically fit the role of expendable NPCs that helped advance a storyline, rather than an actual potent force.

#2 Genestealer Cults - didn't really feel like a complete standalone army, incorporating parts into Codex: Tyranids, so they could be used as a certain force utilizing specific traits.

#3 Minor Imperium Factions - Adeptus Custodes, Inquisition, Knights, Assassins etc... These are great for background narrative, not so much for the game...

#4 Renegades and Heretics - a complete mess at the moment, so incorporating them into Codex: Chaos Space Marines, should work just fine.

#5 Not so much an army as a condensation: Remove all Supplements and place them into their original armies' Codex.

There are actually people who would remove the Imperial Guard.

Bah! if anything, GW needs to ADD an additional and unique (Read: Non-anthropomorphic) army to vie against (besides Tyranids, and, Lord help us, Zoats). And then focus on giving them asymmetric rules to make them interesting. A truly alien life form.

 Slayer6 wrote:
#1 Astra Militarum - adding these in the first place basically demystified the Space Marines. They basically fit the role of expendable NPCs that helped advance a storyline, rather than an actual potent force.

I honestly don't see how, considering the Guard have been a part of the game for as long as the Marines have - first edition Rogue Trader. The same can also be said for Genestealer Cults - they were properly fleshed out in first edition, whereas Tyranids were a random "encounters" race that only got more detail in second edition.
Meanwhile Renegades and Heretics isn't even really a current army - they don't have a Codex - so dropping them feels like a cop-out...?

"adding these in the first place basically demystified the Space Marines. "

No, making marines super common "demystified" them. They started off as the space fuzz, so they were never "mystical". Just judge dredd ripoffs.

it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...

Not Online!!! wrote:
it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...

Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.

remove as armies, recreate as allied options only:

Grey Knights
Assassins
Imperial Knights
Renegade Knights
Daemons
Sisters of Silence

Delete:
Custodes

Create:
New Xenos army - actual fething good guys. (perhaps the Pan Fo revile themselves...)

SecondTime wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...

Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.

It's hypocrysie and behaviour that alot of the Big market weights pull.

Not Online!!! wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...

Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.

It's hypocrysie and behaviour that alot of the Big market weights pull.

Sadly, hypocrisy is a not legal cause of action. Jokes on GW, though, in some ways. Merely renaming factions is likely not good enough from a copyright perspective. But again, who really cares even now?

6 page and only one person wanted to remove Sisters of Battle.
I take this as a win, and thanks the new plastic models for that!!!

Banville wrote:
This topic may as well be re-titled, 'Armies that I don't like and why I think you shouldn't like them, too.'

I've never seen a thread collapse into irrelevance so quickly, before.

I like some of the armies I’d cancel. I don’t dislike any of them. I just chose the ones that aren’t finished, full, or otherwise lacking some depth.

Custodes, knights, etc.

Custodes have what, 1 HS, 1 FA? Knights have less than 10 data sheets total?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
6 page and only one person wanted to remove Sisters of Battle.
I take this as a win, and thanks the new plastic models for that!!!

T3 power armor is at least a little different from T4 power armor.

SecondTime wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...

Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.

It's hypocrysie and behaviour that alot of the Big market weights pull.

Sadly, hypocrisy is a not legal cause of action. Jokes on GW, though, in some ways. Merely renaming factions is likely not good enough from a copyright perspective. But again, who really cares even now?

Apparently not even gw. They seem to have gone back to "Space Marines" more, with less "Adeptus Astartes". Be interesting to see if the new Guard codex is actually called Imperial Guard instead of Astra Militarum. I'd insert that Clint Eastwood meme, but I can't seem to find it right now....

Maybe their legal team informed that, at least in the US, a simple name change does not erase copyright liability.

All SM chapters should be placed under the same codex. When you see the difference between the major chapters you realize that is just a paint schema, fluff, some doctrines over common vanilla rules, a few stratagems, as most of them are copy and paste from the vanilla SM codex, and 0-3 unique units. The proof that there is actually really a small difference between chapters is that when it comes that iron hands where the most cheese faction in the game, many SM players suddenly begin to proxy their ultramarines / Blood angels, etc... as iron hand and they were able to build the most competitive army just by proxying the paint scheme. Adding this point with the fact that there are many space marines chapters, it makes me feel the game to be "Space Marines against the world" instead of "Warhammer 40 K".

I think this is the first thing that I will try to squat and this will surpass the 5 armies required here. As I Need to pick 5 of them I will pick the ones that I believe has less special units:

Salamander

Iron Hands

White Scars

Raven Guard

Imperial Fists

But if I were not limited to 5 I would also add in the list all the rest (e.g. Ultramarines, Space wolfs, Blood angles, Dark Angels, etc...)

However, I think we can do more.

GK, DW, assassin, and Inquisitors should be placed in the same codex. Codex inquisition. Add here the option to add troops from Astra Militarum, sisters of battle, and Adeptus mechanicus. Then when building the army you should choose which Ordo is based on the army and depending on what excludes options. E.g. Ordo Malleus (won't include DW and SoB), Ordo Xeno (won't include GK and SoB), Ordo Hereticus (won't include GK and DW)

These 2 last ones will be a fairly thick book.

Custodes and sisters of silence shall we roll in another codex.

Imperial Knights and Adeptus Mechanicus in the same codex.

A codex called "heretics" which will contain heretics, Dark Mechanicum and Chaos knights.

GSC in my opinion needs its own codex and not be able to ally with Tyranids. In theory, when Tyranids comes they eat everybody including the GSC renegades so to put GSC and Tyranids in the same codex seems about wrong to me.

Inari and Harlequins, as mention in this thread, I would also put them all together in the same codex.