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Not really, it’s job is to sit there and score points or prevent deep strike.
If you are still thinking like it’s 8th edition then not much I can say. If my opponent using a their long range or barrage to take out Gretchen? (If they even have it) then they have more than made up their points.
Most likely however they are not going to bother and they will be free to sit there in peace being “worthless” hell most likely I would spend one cp to have them get me deploy scramblerss.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Well, it's nothing new that marine players do not understand how orks work, and frankly I'm tired of explaining.
And yes, players WILL bother with your gretchin, because they can just throw random intercessor grenades, hull weapons and whatever units are in range and wipe them out with no trouble whatsoever, which leaves you with no backfield protection and no units sitting on objectives. You don't need "long range or barrage" to take them out. A single dedicated marine unit can clear 100 points of gretchin per turn. There is a reason why they appear in none of the tournament lists - they don't perform the task of "sitting there and scoring points" well enough to be worth 50 points.
Gretchin can't use stratagems, by the way.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 08:45:30
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
For T2 and a 7+ save, that's gotta be lower than 3pts. I think I'd like to take my 8ppm W4 grots please.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 12:37:18
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
You don't see the viability of sitting that model on an objective, having it act as a tarpit, blocking charge lanes, accomplishing actions or repeatedly pinning units ?
A unit that is nigh immortal would be incredibly useful... this game isn't only about dmg output.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:02:03
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Lance845 wrote: A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
You don't see the viability of sitting that model on an objective, having it act as a tarpit, blocking charge lanes, accomplishing actions or repeatedly pinning units ?
A unit that is nigh immortal would be incredibly useful... this game isn't only about dmg output.
1 Model sitting on an objective is taken off that objective when 2 models show up. It's inability to hold the objective makes it worthless.
I didn't say damage output. I said active impact. Again, buffers are valuable. Shield drones are valuable. That drone for tau that makes it so pulse weapons shoot 6" further is valuable. A Cryptek boosting RP by +1 is valuable.
The point I was making is that a wounds value is variable. Those wounds are worth more if you change it's gun to a heavy bolter. Or a pair of las cannons. Or equip it like an imperial knight.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
You don't see the viability of sitting that model on an objective, having it act as a tarpit, blocking charge lanes, accomplishing actions or repeatedly pinning units ?
A unit that is nigh immortal would be incredibly useful... this game isn't only about dmg output.
1 Model sitting on an objective is taken off that objective when 2 models show up. It's inability to hold the objective makes it worthless.
I didn't say damage output. I said active impact. Again, buffers are valuable. Shield drones are valuable. That drone for tau that makes it so pulse weapons shoot 6" further is valuable. A Cryptek boosting RP by +1 is valuable.
The point I was making is that a wounds value is variable. Those wounds are worth more if you change it's gun to a heavy bolter. Or a pair of las cannons. Or equip it like an imperial knight.
Ok,,, so before the two models get over to the objective ? what about any actions the model is doing ? what about blocking charge lanes, what about being a tarpit ? ... lol ... your defining active impact as damage output or ability to remove other units... so ya,, you don't have to say it, its what your describing XD.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Lance845 wrote: A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
You don't see the viability of sitting that model on an objective, having it act as a tarpit, blocking charge lanes, accomplishing actions or repeatedly pinning units ?
A unit that is nigh immortal would be incredibly useful... this game isn't only about dmg output.
1 Model sitting on an objective is taken off that objective when 2 models show up. It's inability to hold the objective makes it worthless.
I didn't say damage output. I said active impact. Again, buffers are valuable. Shield drones are valuable. That drone for tau that makes it so pulse weapons shoot 6" further is valuable. A Cryptek boosting RP by +1 is valuable.
The point I was making is that a wounds value is variable. Those wounds are worth more if you change it's gun to a heavy bolter. Or a pair of las cannons. Or equip it like an imperial knight.
Ok,,, so before the two models get over to the objective ? what about any actions the model is doing ? what about blocking charge lanes, what about being a tarpit ? ... lol ... your defining active impact as damage output or ability to remove other units... so ya,, you don't have to say it, its what your describing XD.
Let's say the unit is basically a drop pod with no Deep Strike or Transport capacity. It's a vehicle (so no actions, as far as I'm aware), it's not a troop (so no ObSec), it can't move (so it can't go to block charges or anything-unless you deploy it in front of your own units, blocking their moves as well), it can't charge, it cannot attack in melee and has no guns.
But it's got 30 wounds at T8 2++/2+++. Is that a valuable unit?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
But sure, it is MORE valuable if it has big weapons on it... but it doesn't mean its NOT valuable or worth "jack gak for points" like you implied.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
JNAProductions wrote: Let's say the unit is basically a drop pod with no Deep Strike or Transport capacity. It's a vehicle (so no actions, as far as I'm aware), it's not a troop (so no ObSec), it can't move (so it can't go to block charges or anything-unless you deploy it in front of your own units, blocking their moves as well), it can't charge, it cannot attack in melee and has no guns.
But it's got 30 wounds at T8 2++/2+++. Is that a valuable unit?
I would not take that unit in any army of mine because it offers nothing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:32:15
Lance845 wrote: A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
You don't see the viability of sitting that model on an objective, having it act as a tarpit, blocking charge lanes, accomplishing actions or repeatedly pinning units ?
A unit that is nigh immortal would be incredibly useful... this game isn't only about dmg output.
1 Model sitting on an objective is taken off that objective when 2 models show up. It's inability to hold the objective makes it worthless.
I didn't say damage output. I said active impact. Again, buffers are valuable. Shield drones are valuable. That drone for tau that makes it so pulse weapons shoot 6" further is valuable. A Cryptek boosting RP by +1 is valuable.
The point I was making is that a wounds value is variable. Those wounds are worth more if you change it's gun to a heavy bolter. Or a pair of las cannons. Or equip it like an imperial knight.
Ok,,, so before the two models get over to the objective ? what about any actions the model is doing ? what about blocking charge lanes, what about being a tarpit ? ... lol ... your defining active impact as damage output or ability to remove other units... so ya,, you don't have to say it, its what your describing XD.
Let's say the unit is basically a drop pod with no Deep Strike or Transport capacity. It's a vehicle (so no actions, as far as I'm aware), it's not a troop (so no ObSec), it can't move (so it can't go to block charges or anything-unless you deploy it in front of your own units, blocking their moves as well), it can't charge, it cannot attack in melee and has no guns.
But it's got 30 wounds at T8 2++/2+++. Is that a valuable unit?
XD lol, yes, if you remove even basic stats like movement or its ability to do actions, then yes its useless.
But of course it is you just made the following argument :
"Well, what if it can't do anything ? is it still valuable then ?"
Well, obviously not XD lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:33:49
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
and even then, it still has the ability to capture an objective in your deployment zone until the opposing player dedicates resources to stop that... so EVEN then it has some miniscule value.
JNAProductions wrote: But it has wounds. It takes up space. That's technically something of value.
yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:36:18
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Type40 wrote: and even then, it still has the ability to capture an objective in your deployment zone until the opposing player dedicates resources to stop that... so EVEN then it has some miniscule value.
How many points would you pay for that unit?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Your talking to the guy actively makes lists with webway gates XD lol.
oohhhh and the big 30w 2+ 2++ model can be a pain for the Look Out Sir rule... just hide a sniper type character next to that...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:38:57
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Type40 wrote: I dont know. How fluffy does it seem ?
Your talking to the guy actively makes lists with webway gates XD lol.
How many points would you pay for it, based on its tabletop performance? Assume you're trying your darndest to win a game.
Unless you're saying you'd take Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians all at 50 PPM because "They're a dying race, and each life is equally valuable!"
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Type40 wrote: I dont know. How fluffy does it seem ?
Your talking to the guy actively makes lists with webway gates XD lol.
How many points would you pay for it, based on its tabletop performance? Assume you're trying your darndest to win a game.
Unless you're saying you'd take Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians all at 50 PPM because "They're a dying race, and each life is equally valuable!"
If I knew I would have a bunch of shooty characters and I knew I would have an ojbective in my deployment zone. then I would pay more then I pay for a webway gate... those can't even be deployed on an objective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: but honestly, I am no designer. I am not going to attempt to pick an exact point cost... my only point in this argument is, wounds themselves do bring some inherent value on their own. Trying to figure out how many points and blah blah blah, doesn't really change that does it ?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:43:26
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Type40 wrote: but honestly, I am no designer. I am not going to attempt to pick an exact point cost... my only point in this argument is, wounds themselves do bring some inherent value on their own. Trying to figure out how many points and blah blah blah, doesn't really change that does it ?
his point is to provide a unit with nearly infinite wounds and ask you how much it is worth if all it has is wounds. And don't worry about putting it on an objective - a single enemy model takes that objective away without having to touch this abomination.
Type40 wrote: I dont know. How fluffy does it seem ?
Your talking to the guy actively makes lists with webway gates XD lol.
How many points would you pay for it, based on its tabletop performance? Assume you're trying your darndest to win a game.
Unless you're saying you'd take Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians all at 50 PPM because "They're a dying race, and each life is equally valuable!"
If I knew I would have a bunch of shooty characters and I knew I would have an ojbective in my deployment zone. then I would pay more then I pay for a webway gate... those can't even be deployed on an objective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: but honestly, I am no designer. I am not going to attempt to pick an exact point cost... my only point in this argument is, wounds themselves do bring some inherent value on their own. Trying to figure out how many points and blah blah blah, doesn't really change that does it ?
Then give me an approximate. Is it worth around what a Dire Avenger is worth?
A Dark Reaper?
A Wave Serpent?
A Wraithknight?
And what if it was T1 7+ instead of T8 2++/2+++?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Type40 wrote: but honestly, I am no designer. I am not going to attempt to pick an exact point cost... my only point in this argument is, wounds themselves do bring some inherent value on their own. Trying to figure out how many points and blah blah blah, doesn't really change that does it ?
his point is to provide a unit with nearly infinite wounds and ask you how much it is worth if all it has is wounds. And don't worry about putting it on an objective - a single enemy model takes that objective away without having to touch this abomination.
Yes,, so it forces an opponent to dedicate "a single enemy unit" to it "without having to touch this abomination."
and it provides a unshiftable Look Out Sir rock... there is inherent value in that no ?
Its not worth 0 points,
Wounds on their own have some inherent value, I am not going to try and work out what that is... all I am saying is that it IS something. Are we really going to try and argue that it is absolutely nothing ?
Type40 wrote: I dont know. How fluffy does it seem ?
Your talking to the guy actively makes lists with webway gates XD lol.
How many points would you pay for it, based on its tabletop performance? Assume you're trying your darndest to win a game.
Unless you're saying you'd take Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians all at 50 PPM because "They're a dying race, and each life is equally valuable!"
If I knew I would have a bunch of shooty characters and I knew I would have an ojbective in my deployment zone. then I would pay more then I pay for a webway gate... those can't even be deployed on an objective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: but honestly, I am no designer. I am not going to attempt to pick an exact point cost... my only point in this argument is, wounds themselves do bring some inherent value on their own. Trying to figure out how many points and blah blah blah, doesn't really change that does it ?
Then give me an approximate. Is it worth around what a Dire Avenger is worth?
A Dark Reaper?
A Wave Serpent?
A Wraithknight?
And what if it was T1 7+ instead of T8 2++/2+++?
lol ya, the less stats you give the thing the less value it has... I don't understand what your point is XD.
What if we it was T1 7+ 1w ,,, sure even less value ... but again, there is some inherent value there. XD ... lol what is your point XD ? You still have something that you can use to force your opponent to dedicate resources too.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:50:46
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Lance845 wrote: A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
You don't see the viability of sitting that model on an objective, having it act as a tarpit, blocking charge lanes, accomplishing actions or repeatedly pinning units ?
A unit that is nigh immortal would be incredibly useful... this game isn't only about dmg output.
1 Model sitting on an objective is taken off that objective when 2 models show up. It's inability to hold the objective makes it worthless.
I didn't say damage output. I said active impact. Again, buffers are valuable. Shield drones are valuable. That drone for tau that makes it so pulse weapons shoot 6" further is valuable. A Cryptek boosting RP by +1 is valuable.
The point I was making is that a wounds value is variable. Those wounds are worth more if you change it's gun to a heavy bolter. Or a pair of las cannons. Or equip it like an imperial knight.
Ok,,, so before the two models get over to the objective ? what about any actions the model is doing ? what about blocking charge lanes, what about being a tarpit ? ... lol ... your defining active impact as damage output or ability to remove other units... so ya,, you don't have to say it, its what your describing XD.
You are right, but what he is trying to say minus the hyperbole is correct as well. Wounds are more or less valuable depending on what a unit can do, how fast it can move and even how much space it can take up.
In essence, points per wounds are by no means a thing you can just calculate from a formula. Even if you compare extremely similar units - let's say an Assault Terminator, a Deathshroud Terminator, a Mega Nob and a Deathwing Knight - the value of an extra wound on each of them varies wildly for multiple reasons, many of which cannot be easily converted into numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:50:49
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Type40 wrote: Yes,, so it forces an opponent to dedicate "a single enemy unit" to it "without having to touch this abomination."
A single model - so like, a stray daemonette while the other 29 in the unit are in combat with something. Or like, one Fury unit, who now owns the objective and cannot be shot because they're locked in combat with this thing. So its existence is actively harming the army that owns it.
Type40 wrote: and it provides a unshiftable Look Out Sir rock... there is inherent value in that no ?
Only if it has the vehicle or monster keyword, which is an assumption not in the original text.
Type40 wrote: Its not worth 0 points,
Wounds on their own have some inherent value, I am not going to try and work out what that is... all I am saying is that it IS something. Are we really going to try and argue that it is absolutely nothing ?
Type40 wrote: but honestly, I am no designer. I am not going to attempt to pick an exact point cost... my only point in this argument is, wounds themselves do bring some inherent value on their own. Trying to figure out how many points and blah blah blah, doesn't really change that does it ?
his point is to provide a unit with nearly infinite wounds and ask you how much it is worth if all it has is wounds. And don't worry about putting it on an objective - a single enemy model takes that objective away without having to touch this abomination.
Yes,, so it forces an opponent to dedicate "a single enemy unit" to it "without having to touch this abomination." and it provides a unshiftable Look Out Sir rock... there is inherent value in that no ? Its not worth 0 points, Wounds on their own have some inherent value, I am not going to try and work out what that is... all I am saying is that it IS something. Are we really going to try and argue that it is absolutely nothing ?
No. But what's being said is that a Wound's value varies IMMENSELY based on the other stats and gear that the model has.
This hypothetical immortal unit is useful for two things: Holding a DZ objective until one enemy model contests it, or two take it. And providing LOS Protection for nearby Characters. It has no other use.
If you give it a BS of 2+ and your choice of any of the Leman Russ turrets, suddenly it's a lot more valuable, since it can do significant damage while being unkillable. Give it a move of 12", advance or fall back and charge, and ObSec, and suddenly it's great for stealing objectives. Give it the above and 10 attacks at WS 2+, S10, AP-5, D5 and it can blenderize most anything it touches while being basically impossible to kill.
But, if you drop it down to T1 7+, even at 30 Wounds, then a ten-man AutoBolt Intercessor squad can wipe it in one turn by shooting and charging it. Or you can winnow it down with incidental fire that has no better target, and kill it quite easily with that.
Type40 wrote: Yes,, so it forces an opponent to dedicate "a single enemy unit" to it "without having to touch this abomination."
A single model - so like, a stray daemonette while the other 29 in the unit are in combat with something. Or like, one Fury unit, who now owns the objective and cannot be shot because they're locked in combat with this thing. So its existence is actively harming the army that owns it.
Type40 wrote: and it provides a unshiftable Look Out Sir rock... there is inherent value in that no ?
Only if it has the vehicle or monster keyword, which is an assumption not in the original text.
Type40 wrote: Its not worth 0 points, Wounds on their own have some inherent value, I am not going to try and work out what that is... all I am saying is that it IS something. Are we really going to try and argue that it is absolutely nothing ?
I think we're just exploring the problem.
In the example I gave, I did say it's a vehicle (to stop it from doing Actions).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:54:19
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Lance845 wrote: A wounds value is variable based on it's active impact on the battlefield.
A nigh immortal unit with 30w 2+ 2++ save and a single heavy 1 6" str 1 D1 weapon isn't worth jack gak for points.
Providing valuable auras or secondary effects and having good offensive output makes wounds valuable. You cannot calculate the value of a wound on it's own. You can only calculate it in relation to the rest of the unit.
You don't see the viability of sitting that model on an objective, having it act as a tarpit, blocking charge lanes, accomplishing actions or repeatedly pinning units ?
A unit that is nigh immortal would be incredibly useful... this game isn't only about dmg output.
1 Model sitting on an objective is taken off that objective when 2 models show up. It's inability to hold the objective makes it worthless.
I didn't say damage output. I said active impact. Again, buffers are valuable. Shield drones are valuable. That drone for tau that makes it so pulse weapons shoot 6" further is valuable. A Cryptek boosting RP by +1 is valuable.
The point I was making is that a wounds value is variable. Those wounds are worth more if you change it's gun to a heavy bolter. Or a pair of las cannons. Or equip it like an imperial knight.
Ok,,, so before the two models get over to the objective ? what about any actions the model is doing ? what about blocking charge lanes, what about being a tarpit ? ... lol ... your defining active impact as damage output or ability to remove other units... so ya,, you don't have to say it, its what your describing XD.
You are right, but what he is trying to say minus the hyperbole is correct as well. Wounds are more or less valuable depending on what a unit can do, how fast it can move and even how much space it can take up.
In essence, points per wounds are by no means a thing you can just calculate from a formula. Even if you compare extremely similar units - let's say an Assault Terminator, a Deathshroud Terminator, a Mega Nob and a Deathwing Knight - the value of an extra wound on each of them varies wildly for multiple reasons, many of which cannot be easily converted into numbers.
Sure, I can agree with that. All I am doing is disagreeing that a wound has 0 inherent value. But 100% there is no formula for figuring it out. I would argue every stat and rule in the game can not objectively be looked at in a formulaic manner to figure out points... even the synergy of another unit adds to the value of the first one.
So ya, I agree, the value of a "wound" is uncalculatable because of how that stat synergizes with the rest of the unit/other synergies... but you can say the same thing about any stat, ability, rule, table, mission and etc in the game.
I just don't think its fair to say that wounds don't have ANY inherent value.
Even a 1 w t1 sv7+ unit on an objective forces your opponent to spend their action economy dealing with it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 13:57:34
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
JNAProductions wrote: This hypothetical immortal unit is useful for two things: Holding a DZ objective until one enemy model contests it, or two take it. And providing LOS Protection for nearby Characters. It has no other use.
Actually, this doesn't have to be this hypothetical. Makari actually plays extremely similar to what you are describing and he is definitely not worth 65 points, and that wouldn't change even if you trippled his wounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 14:01:13
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
lol see... I am just really terrible at making this assessment ... honestly, I am not always a good list maker, if the unit felt fluffy or interesting to me I probably would totally over pay for it XD.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
@type40. So to be clear. You by admission have no sense of value in terms of design, no interest in learning, and are happy to play unbalanced nonsense because it looks neat and then decided to participate in a discusion about the mechanical value of one of the attributes in the game and derail almost a full page of that discusion because you choose to not understand the spirit of what is being said and instead argue what amounts to semantics. Again, semantics on a subject for which you have no meaningful input?
Is that about right?
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
