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This thread is not what I thought it would be about too!

 catbarf wrote:

 Type40 wrote:


Again,,,

These are fething werewolves who fight before they die on the table.... are the BG Vangaurd Vets fething werewolves that fight before they die ?

He keeps asking what makes them different in role or purpose and you keep replying by pointing out mechanical differences, without providing any argument as to how these mechanical differences lend them a different role on the tabletop.

In other words, if you were forced to take melee VanVets instead of Wulfen, what would change about your army? Not 'they wouldn't get to fight before they die', but what would actually change in terms of strategy or the composition of the rest of your army to compensate?

I mean, I'll hop in here I guess...

They're...very different units? I guess that they're both melee-oriented units with mixed wargear who can take storm shields, but your battle strategy would change significantly if you took wulfen vs taking vanguard veterans.

Vanvets are most likely to be taken with jump packs, as a deep strike assault unit, probably accompanied by a jump pack chaplain who'll pop oratory to give them +2" charge. Wulfen have an 8" move, making them not suitable for a turn 1 charge, and they've got worse durability per wound than anything else in the marine codex vs anti-chaff weaponry, so you want to make sure to field them alongside a chaff type unit to draw that fire - probably Fenrisian Wolves, another unique SW unit that is entirely unlike anything else other marines field. As such you probably want to support them with a defensive buff, rather than a + to charge buff as they're probably going to be in turn 2 with an 8" move+advance.

They have a similar offensive profile to vanvets, but that's it. Assault Terminators are less meaningfully distinct from Vanvets than Wulfen. T5 4+ W2 with access to only TH/SS is not T4 3+ W2 with access to Chainsword/SS, theyr'e a whole different ballgame defensively, and 8" no fly is not 12" fly deep strike. Vanvets also have full transport access, don't have an aura, dont have perma-assault doctrine...

Like, there's a certain point where, sure, a melee unit is a melee unit, but you wouldn't argue that Skorpekh Destroyers and Vanvets were "basically the same" would you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How I'd field Wulfen:

Frost Claws/Maybe axes depending on meta, maybe 2 TH/SS, a couple cheapos. Field on foot alongside Fenrisian Wolves, bring in some Skyclaw squads to benefit from the aura for the turn 2 tempo. A psyker with the defensive 5++ spell (or most likely, the inevitable -1 to hit spell the SW are all but guaranteed to have) and a bike to keep up with them.

Basically, distraction carnifex unit.

How I'd field Vanvets: Chainsword/SS on some models, Chainfist/Chainsword on others (or Thunder Hammer, I can't remember if they can do chainfists) or Lightning Claw/Chainsword meta depending, with a jump pack chaplain only.

Basically, anti-elite point removal. Support with turn 1 antichaff screen clearing firepower.

Yeah, thats what I tried to say, as the_scotsman with much more meta knowledge said.

If theres a unit to arguee that shouldnt exist because he's just the same as other space marine option, Wulfen are the last one one should pick. Before mini marines became 2 wounds they had literally the same Statline as a Ork Nobz and a ton of different rules compared with anything space marines had.

hey mods, can you I duinno try to keep this topic on topic? I didn't create it so that the useal jelous children could hijack it with bitching that "someone else's army got something"

Karol wrote:

Tyel 793315 10966435 wrote:

*Don't make sarcastic comments about Dark Eldar and GSC in PA*

Weren't scyths of the emperor GSC space marines in power armour, until they got killed off by primaris .

They were Advanced Space Crusade!

BrianDavion wrote:
hey mods, can you I duinno try to keep this topic on topic? I didn't create it so that the useal jelous children could hijack it with bitching that "someone else's army got something"

I can't help but read this post in the tone of a snooty aristocrat telling the servants to clear the filthy, non-Marine-playing riff-raff off the lawn.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I hope their rule sucks so no-one misses them when they get dropped in the next codex/supplement, so we can stop the chapter specific units.

Prediction: You'll stop playing 40k long before GW will stop making chapter specific units.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
hey mods, can you I duinno try to keep this topic on topic? I didn't create it so that the useal jelous children could hijack it with bitching that "someone else's army got something"

I can't help but read this post in the tone of a snooty aristocrat telling the servants to clear the filthy, non-Marine-playing riff-raff off the lawn.

I think asking people to keep a thread on topic isn't too much to ask.

I would posit that expressing irritation that Space Marines are getting yet another new unit in a thread about a new Space Marine unit is entirely an on-topic response.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
I would posit that expressing irritation that Space Marines are getting yet another new unit in a thread about a new Space Marine unit is entirely an on-topic response.

I tarted this thread so people could specualte about what the unit was dude, not so the whiny entitled xenos players could be whiney and entitled that someone else's army got something and they didn't.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
I would posit that expressing irritation that Space Marines are getting yet another new unit in a thread about a new Space Marine unit is entirely an on-topic response.

Na man, OP was specifically asking about speculated rules and hopes for the new unit. On the first page there were a total of 3 posts - including the starting post - which were talking about it. The rest was already off-topic.
If people don't like the look or that Marines get yet another unit (which to be fair, is simply a paint job and an existing upgrade sprue thrown together), how hard is it to NOT hijack yet another thread and derail it for several pages?

Nearly every thread that goes for several pages is ending in the same few people argueing back and forth about the same frickin topic for a year now. At least that is how it feels, anyway.

I became less interested in starting topics myself because of it and definitely more often than not think to myself "I'd like to reply to a post, but it is just not worth it".

I have updated the thread title to reflect that this topic is about the rules, whining about SM in general is off topic and from this point on will earn its poster a warning.
Stay on topic.
Be Polite.
Don't spam.
These three little rules are not hard to follow.

[Mod posted while message was under construction; deleted by poster]

Alrigh, so, riever stats, an SOS style aura maybe? Psych out grenades and a deep strike? This is my guess. Perhaps some extra dmg against psykers type bullets? I dunno. This is my speculation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Type40 wrote:
Alrigh, so, riever stats, an SOS style aura maybe? Psych out grenades and a deep strike? This is my guess. Perhaps some extra dmg against psykers type bullets? I dunno. This is my speculation.

psyker type bullets seems unlikely, grey knights would be, rightly, ticked off if they got psybolt ammo.

BrianDavion wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Type40 wrote:
Alrigh, so, riever stats, an SOS style aura maybe? Psych out grenades and a deep strike? This is my guess. Perhaps some extra dmg against psykers type bullets? I dunno. This is my speculation.

psyker type bullets seems unlikely, grey knights would be, rightly, ticked off if they got psybolt ammo.

fair, but maybe with a strat. SOS also have psyker bullets that get to snipe psykers...
I could definitly see a deny the witch strat for them ...

i am kinda hoping they have some rune priest fluff to them or maybe even make them blanks ,,, but i think i am speculating to hard on this one lol
XD... I just hope that for the first unique non-vanilla primaris (sans characters) there is some cool heavy fluff style stuff atatched to its rules. But that's just me XD .

 catbarf wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, I'll hop in here I guess...

They're...very different units? I guess that they're both melee-oriented units with mixed wargear who can take storm shields, but your battle strategy would change significantly if you took wulfen vs taking vanguard veterans.

Vanvets are most likely to be taken with jump packs, as a deep strike assault unit, probably accompanied by a jump pack chaplain who'll pop oratory to give them +2" charge. Wulfen have an 8" move, making them not suitable for a turn 1 charge, and they've got worse durability per wound than anything else in the marine codex vs anti-chaff weaponry, so you want to make sure to field them alongside a chaff type unit to draw that fire - probably Fenrisian Wolves, another unique SW unit that is entirely unlike anything else other marines field. As such you probably want to support them with a defensive buff, rather than a + to charge buff as they're probably going to be in turn 2 with an 8" move+advance.

They have a similar offensive profile to vanvets, but that's it. Assault Terminators are less meaningfully distinct from Vanvets than Wulfen. T5 4+ W2 with access to only TH/SS is not T4 3+ W2 with access to Chainsword/SS, theyr'e a whole different ballgame defensively, and 8" no fly is not 12" fly deep strike. Vanvets also have full transport access, don't have an aura, dont have perma-assault doctrine...

Like, there's a certain point where, sure, a melee unit is a melee unit, but you wouldn't argue that Skorpekh Destroyers and Vanvets were "basically the same" would you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How I'd field Wulfen:

Frost Claws/Maybe axes depending on meta, maybe 2 TH/SS, a couple cheapos. Field on foot alongside Fenrisian Wolves, bring in some Skyclaw squads to benefit from the aura for the turn 2 tempo. A psyker with the defensive 5++ spell (or most likely, the inevitable -1 to hit spell the SW are all but guaranteed to have) and a bike to keep up with them.

Basically, distraction carnifex unit.

How I'd field Vanvets: Chainsword/SS on some models, Chainfist/Chainsword on others (or Thunder Hammer, I can't remember if they can do chainfists) or Lightning Claw/Chainsword meta depending, with a jump pack chaplain only.

Basically, anti-elite point removal. Support with turn 1 antichaff screen clearing firepower.

Thanks for the breakdown! Seriously, thanks- I don't really know what Wulfen do, since my local Space Wolves player doesn't use them. I was just getting very frustrated by seeing a simple question asked over and over again with constant dodging as a reply.

I think I said earlier in the thread that Space Wolves using Codex: SM but having Wulfen and Thunderwolves as their unique units seemed fine to me, since those are conceptually and aesthetically very distinct and don't have any apparent direct codex counterparts. If the rules for this new unit end up basically just being slightly different Reivers, well, seems kind of pointless.

well according to GW they're "psykic hunters" in which case, taking GW at their word and assuming that's what they'll be it is a niche we don't really have for Marines. right now if we wanna shut down a psyker about all we can do is deny the witch with libbies. It's not going to be a game winner (at least in the meta right now) but it could def be useful.

the_scotsman wrote:
I predict the longevity and commitment to rules support that has been the hallmark of modern GW's space marine range of model game token products.

Players can purchase, convert, painstakingly paint and prepare these models with the level of confidence that they'll have rules support for years to come that we've come to expect from good old games workshop.

They'll be able to ride right up to that rules support in a Land Raider Ultima.

The Hounds of Morkai are relentless hunters of psykers, protected against the magicks of their prey with runic wards. This new Reivers variant, which includes a Space Wolves Primaris Upgrade Frame, is available to pre-order this weekend.

Sounds like a 5+ against mortal wounds to me OR being able to make a deny the witch test. Maybe both. At the current rules for Reivers they could add both abilities at no additional cost and they would still be a "maaaaaaybe" pick for me, sadly.

a_typical_hero wrote:
The Hounds of Morkai are relentless hunters of psykers, protected against the magicks of their prey with runic wards. This new Reivers variant, which includes a Space Wolves Primaris Upgrade Frame, is available to pre-order this weekend.

Sounds like a 5+ against mortal wounds to me OR being able to make a deny the witch test. Maybe both. At the current rules for Reivers they could add both abilities at no additional cost and they would still be a "maaaaaaybe" pick for me, sadly.

Honestly, I think the deny will be a strat even

My guess is no new actual special rules on the data sheet just a keyword and a strat that only works for that keyword.

The Salt Mine wrote:
My guess is no new actual special rules on the data sheet just a keyword and a strat that only works for that keyword.

Hope not, but I could see that happening.

Clad in the midnight armour of the Cult of Morkai, the Hounds are relentless hunters of enemy psykers, warded against the wyrd with runic totems. Once they’ve caught the scent of their quarry, the hapless witch is as good as dead.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

Clad in the midnight armour of the Cult of Morkai, the Hounds are relentless hunters of enemy psykers, warded against the wyrd with runic totems. Once they’ve caught the scent of their quarry, the hapless witch is as good as dead.

Really cool !

Thanks for this post !

That's pretty brutal, if they can get within 12" to snipe a Psyker. S4 is only okay, but AP-2 and D2 is pretty damn good.

Getting in range, though... That's the issue.

ccs wrote:
Prediction: You'll stop playing 40k long before GW will stop making chapter specific units.

I've just got plastic SoB so that may take a LONG time bro .

I hope they get the anti-psyker part of Shield of Faith. They can Deny the Witch, but with just one die instead of two because they aren't psykers. Keep things coherent and all that .

[edit]Of course they got way stronger rules than Sisters, because Space Marine...[/edit]

 Kanluwen wrote:

Clad in the midnight armour of the Cult of Morkai, the Hounds are relentless hunters of enemy psykers, warded against the wyrd with runic totems. Once they’ve caught the scent of their quarry, the hapless witch is as good as dead.

Cool, so they are, in fact, better at hunting psykers than Sisters of Silence.

Yeah, that tracks for a fluff-compliant space wolf unit

Super neat unit. One more reason to just not even bother with my 1ksons though :(.

I really like them. Gives me an excuse to buy another box of Rievers, not that I need an excuse to buy models.

I am excited for there lore entry in the supplement and excited to see mechanics that are relevant to that fluff on the table ... but I am not going further into my thoughts or ideas on this because i don't want to start an argument