Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

You can have that fluff without writing a full codex and supporting miniature line for it.

Deathwatch could have been a couple entries with a couple fancy pieces of wargear with a custom Trait or two. That would have been fine.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Tau are great, because Tau aren't just another set of marines.

The people that complaint about Deathwatch also complaint about GK, about Custodes, about Tempestus, about Harlequins. I have 0 respect for that kind of people. The "If I don't like it nobody should because -language removed- that doesnt affect me in any way" kind of people.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
...Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Can I claim 9e shouldn't exist because the short tables and melee king-of-the-hill missions are incompatible with my concept of Tau instead?

What is this even supposed to mean?

mrFickle wrote:
I have never had a DW codex so how has it played out in the past? My understanding is that, especially with the codex and supplement way of working, if you play DW you’re not going to end up fielding an army much different from any other SM, just with some specific characters and units.

Or are DW design to be a special addition to a “proper chapter” to represent their kill team style back ground?

Thematically, what makes them special comes into play more in small games than large ones. Their ability to take Assault Marines, Terminators and Bikers in the same KT is awesome when you've only got a patrol detachment to work with. Special ammunition/ unique weapons are also very cool. And their strats were very specific to the enemies they would face, which is different than the way most armies work. Having said that, there are drawbacks to having strats function that way, even though it does fit the lore.

But Crusade content in the DW supplement is what I'm really looking forward to- they are an army that was made for Crusade style play. I'm a little bit of a nut when it comes to this kinda thing- I prefer having small armies from many factions than a few large ones; it's better for storytelling and campaign play. And while I don't like non-Ordo marines much, I have the Blood Angel Terminators from Spacehulk and the Spacewolves from Tooth and Claw. So my plan is to play with my SW and BA until they earn enough Battle Honours that they qualify to become Deathwatch.

Then, and only then, does the Deathwatch Crusade make planetfall, under the orders of their Ordo Xenos. Candidates from both BA and SW are accepted into the ranks. What that means is that the Deathwatch will include BA and SW Battle Honours, Battlescars and Crusade Relics, in addition to their own chapter specific content.

Pretty neat, right?

And it's something that I wish more of the "I only play 2k battles at tournaments" crowd would keep in mind when they imply or explicitly state that some thing should be cut so that a tournament can feel more streamlined. What may not make sense in a tournament often makes sense in a narrative Crusade. Because the game is designed to satisfy both player bases,more options are better.

It's easier for players to deal with something that is present- they can choose not to buy it, not to play it, or not to play against it (though in tournies, that isn't always possible). If, on the other hand, the Cult of streamlining has its way, those options disappear for the narrative players, whose stories and campaigns need them in order to provide depth. It's a lot harder to write houserules to bring back stuff that's been cut and have those houserules accepted by other players, than it is to just choose not to buy that which you do not like.

 Galas wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
...Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Can I claim 9e shouldn't exist because the short tables and melee king-of-the-hill missions are incompatible with my concept of Tau instead?

What is this even supposed to mean?

I'm attempting to be silly by saying "Warhammer shouldn't exist because it's incompatible with Tau" instead of "Tau shouldn't exist because they're incompatible with Warhammer", and now I've had to explain the joke so it's clearly fallen flat.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

You can have that fluff without writing a full codex and supporting miniature line for it.

Deathwatch could have been a couple entries with a couple fancy pieces of wargear with a custom Trait or two. That would have been fine.

Pretty much. They should have been what Legion of the Damned were in terms of a specialist unit that reflects that they attached to a larger army. Unfortunately, it seems like LoTD are going to be their own army too at some point in the future.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

You can have that fluff without writing a full codex and supporting miniature line for it.

Deathwatch could have been a couple entries with a couple fancy pieces of wargear with a custom Trait or two. That would have been fine.

Pretty much. They should have been what Legion of the Damned were in terms of a specialist unit that reflects that they attached to a larger army. Unfortunately, it seems like LoTD are going to be their own army too at some point in the future.

LOTD as primaris though? Aren’t they an old chapter that got sucked into the warp or something??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Are they just an example of GW having their cake and eating it with imperial armies.

I don’t know in what edition the became a full chapter. The idea of a combined special opps TEAM makes sense but a chapter made of the the best of the best is like an army made of special forces.

Now I think about it I just feel like it’s another lenses to look through at space marines and call the the universes finest warriors.

Or is it there are so many chapters I want to pay them all. It I can’t so I’ll make a special chapter with all of them in it?

Same problem I have with inquisitors having xenos tech and helpers, but that was a different thread

All marines are spec ops, Deathwatch are just a standing force at the discretion of the ordo xenos.

They’re not even specifically more elite, they’d lack many of the tools or resources a normal chapter has in favour of deploying even smaller strike forces for niche missions. I doubt they’d function anything like as well deployed on mass as a coherent force.

Admittedly primaris diluted this somewhat by allowing what amounts to basic tacs but a few inches taller in instead of specialists with specific gear.

Exactly, how does it really work when the idea is that each member chooses their own gear to make them specialised and more elite when primaris all have to take the same gear

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

This.
As with a few other so called armies.

A game played above Kill Team level is always depicting a small area of a much larger, ongoing battle in the background or offscreen.

I see no problem with having a "2000 points Kill Team".

GW should flesh out more sub-factions with a few unique models and upgrade sprues. Really adds some character to them.

 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Tau are great, because Tau aren't just another set of marines.

The people that complaint about Deathwatch also complaint about GK, about Custodes, about Tempestus, about Harlequins. I have 0 respect for that kind of people. The "If I don't like it nobody should because I'm an insecure prick that cannot accept that other people enjoys stuff I don't that doesnt affect me in any way" kind of people.

With regards to all these factions, I think the way GW handled Stormtroopers/Scions within the IG codex is pretty solid and offers a great roadmap for other microfactions, offering the subfactiona way it can operate on its own in a limited capacity but that otherwise operates as a semi-independent part of a more cohesive army.

Well, by that logic, Rubrics and Plague Marines should've remained elite-choices in CSM, harlequins elite-choices in Craftworlds.

But spin-off Codexes are popular (even if the stuff get's kinda rolled back into a supplement format 10 years later).

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:

Exactly, how does it really work when the idea is that each member chooses their own gear to make them specialised and more elite when primaris all have to take the same gear

Maybe you can actually, oh I dont know, read their Codex or source material and find out? Instead of bitching on the internet that you dont understand them and therefore they have no right to exist.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.

I did put an "if" in there. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think their focus on power armor has to have some affect on the other factions, right?

 jeff white wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

This.
As with a few other so called armies.

Well I'll shorten it up this time, but I'll say what I've said before:

3rd edition defined Chambers Militant as armies. I think that was 2003. So no, neither Deathwatch nor Grey Knights have always been small kill teams. In 3rd, they were chamber militant armies- and while it's true that DW didn't get a dex in that edition, this has more to do with the thing that I dislike most about GW, which is their tendency to do edition updates instead of actually expanding the game into new territory.

SecondTime wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

Each new factions is somebody future favourite faction. Admech was a small faction when released, the same for genestealer cult. Look at them now.

No. Having more factions doesnt detracts from any faction receiving content. The amount of factions in warhammer is an extremely small component in relation with the production time that all the other GW games need and receive.

Do we really want to go back to the dark age of specialists games closed and only fantasy and 40k receiving support in a extremely sparse way? In the past 3 years we have had big releases for:
Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Genestealer Cult, Adeptus Mechanicus, Orks, Necrons. GW is pumping out content, armies, boxed and specialists games at a rate no one could have imagined 4 years ago. So people should probably, relax a little bit.
And stop wanting for the toys of other kids to be taken away so daddy GW can give them the attention they feel they deserve. Is pathetic. Tau haven't received a new kit barring Shadowsun (Great model I love her) in what, 4-5 years? You don't see me crying a river for it.

SecondTime wrote:

I did put an "if" in there. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think their focus on power armor has to have some affect on the other factions, right?

Ah the old "just asking the question" bs. Nice try. Too bad you already tipped your hand at being interested only in gatekeeping what other people can play.

I thibk the issue isn't should or shouldn't they, they do and it sucks to be the unfavoured child when it comes to having your armie loose rules.

However I do think how GW handled Not only Marines 2.0 but the transition to 9th edition and the horrific joke that is CA2020, and the lackluster Imperial Armour book.

Is rightly starting to upset people, they are happy to pump out more and more versions of loyalist marines supliment after supliment with totally unnecessary units, while factions are being left in a bordeline unplayable state.

Either this is wilful negligence or they truely are that clueless about their game changes that they don't realise that the game is an unbalanced broken mess.

 Galas wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

Each new factions is somebody future favourite faction. Admech was a small faction when released, the same for genestealer cult. Look at them now.


No. Having more factions doesnt detracts from any faction receiving content.

By the same token however, it took literally almost a quarter century between the release of Sisters of Battle and their first major product line update. There are a large number of Eldar units that haven't been touched since 2E. The newest basic Guardsmen sculpts available from GW are 6 editions and almost 20 years old, with most of the vehicles being only minor tweaks of mid 90's kits with basically nothing new for three editions now (and in fact have lost several units from the codex), while Dark Eldar have been gutted in many respects from their 5E reboot after waiting 11 years for an update. There's only so much marketing bandwidth in a year, you can only release so many SKU's a month and have there be shelf space for it all. GW's website lists 36 factions, and 16 of them are Space Marines of *some* sort. With 36 armies, given the lifespan of 40k's last 3 editions, that's not enough time for each faction to get its own book, much less additional releases, within the span of an edition unless GW decides to start putting out faction books at a pace greater than once a month. It appears they may be starting to do that, but there's a limit to how fast they can go (EDIT: with their current retail model and reliance on physical books, etc).

From that perspective, having gobs of minorly differentiated Space Marine factions taking up half your release pipeline, that absolutely does limit resources available for other projects and releases.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, by that logic, Rubrics and Plague Marines should've remained elite-choices in CSM, harlequins elite-choices in Craftworlds.

But spin-off Codexes are popular (even if the stuff get's kinda rolled back into a supplement format 10 years later).

I don’t see how it’s the same, thousand sons and death guard were lesion armies since 30k and were intended to be.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galas wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

Each new factions is somebody future favourite faction. Admech was a small faction when released, the same for genestealer cult. Look at them now.


No. Having more factions doesnt detracts from any faction receiving content.

By the same token however, it took literally almost a quarter century between the release of Sisters of Battle and their first major product line update. There are a large number of Eldar units that haven't been touched since 2E. The newest basic Guardsmen sculpts available from GW are 6 editions and almost 20 years old, with most of the vehicles being only minor tweaks of mid 90's kits with basically nothing new for three editions now (and in fact have lost several units from the codex), while Dark Eldar have been gutted in many respects from their 5E reboot after waiting 11 years for an update. There's only so much marketing bandwidth in a year, you can only release so many SKU's a month and have there be shelf space for it all. GW's website lists 36 factions, and 16 of them are Space Marines of *some* sort. With 36 armies, given the lifespan of 40k's last 3 editions, that's not enough time for each faction to get its own book, much less additional releases, within the span of an edition unless GW decides to start putting out faction books at a pace greater than once a month. It appears they may be starting to do that, but there's a limit to how fast they can go (EDIT: with their current retail model and reliance on physical books, etc).

From that perspective, having gobs of minorly differentiated Space Marine factions taking up half your release pipeline, that absolutely does limit resources available for other projects and releases.

So you are saying that in a hypothetical world were GW released much less marines all of those things would have been done?

I'm gonna disagree. If GW wants to do something, THEY DO IT. Is not like they are limited, they are in a constant state of expansion FFS, and they produce many more stuff not only 40K ones.

If Dark Eldars haven't received new models in 11 years is not because Space Marines.
If Sisters of Battle didn't received anything for 20 years was not because Space Marines.
If Imperial Guard is sitting with old models just like Eldar, is not because Space Marines.

Is just because GW didn't wanted to do it. In that time, they made literally ALL of AoS armies, for example, revived nearly ALL specialist games with plastic miniature lines with resin add-ons, and made more than half a dozen army releases for 40k.

I'm not defending the amount of space marine stuff GW is pumping out. But theres no future were GW stops doing it, because without space marines GW as it is now wouldnt even exist.

Ice_can wrote:
I thibk the issue isn't should or shouldn't they, they do and it sucks to be the unfavoured child when it comes to having your armie loose rules.

However I do think how GW handled Not only Marines 2.0 but the transition to 9th edition and the horrific joke that is CA2020, and the lackluster Imperial Armour book.

Is rightly starting to upset people, they are happy to pump out more and more versions of loyalist marines supliment after supliment with totally unnecessary units, while factions are being left in a bordeline unplayable state.

Either this is wilful negligence or they truely are that clueless about their game changes that they don't realise that the game is an unbalanced broken mess.

Here's hoping 2021 is the year of the Xeno. All of 9th so far, with the exception of Necrons, has been pure marine spam. I'll be okay with that, as long as 2021 sees good news for the underdogs. New editions are always marine spam for the first six months- it's one of the reasons why, even when a new edition is better than the old, I hate new editions. But the fact that they are even spammier than usual this time around might mean that they are trying to clear some space in the release schedule for the multiple waves it would take to get all flavours of Eldar up to speed. Personally, I'd like to see an Eldar minigame akin to Speed Freaks used as a vehicle for a CWE/DE release.

None of that changes the fact that I'm glad Deathwatch are an army and do have a supplement. They are the perfect foil for all the Xenos I hope to see in 2021.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:

Exactly, how does it really work when the idea is that each member chooses their own gear to make them specialised and more elite when primaris all have to take the same gear

Maybe you can actually, oh I dont know, read their Codex or source material and find out? Instead of bitching on the internet that you dont understand them and therefore they have no right to exist.

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

mrFickle wrote:

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

Dont start a thread about deleting an army if you're not prepared to have people challenge you on it. If you have questions about Deathwatch as a mechanical faction in 9th edition, there is a thread for that. If you have questions about Deathwatch lore, there is an entire subforum for that. Instead you trundled into the General discussion and tossed out "Why does this faction exist hurrr durrr".

Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

As others have said, DW and GK should have stayed small. Something like the old inquisition forces, a mix of specialists, stormtrooper goons, and elite chamber militant guys would have been really nice. I don't especially care how DW play, but as a faction they're rather boring now. Their whole killteam schtick was that they didn't run in whole armies so they brought a handpicked team that's perfect for the job, wasn't it?

 Argive wrote:
Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

What, are we looking forward to a whole range of "super-Primaris" on 40mm bases in 10th edition that invalidates all the Primaris?

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

Dont start a thread about deleting an army if you're not prepared to have people challenge you on it. If you have questions about Deathwatch as a mechanical faction in 9th edition, there is a thread for that. If you have questions about Deathwatch lore, there is an entire subforum for that. Instead you trundled into the General discussion and tossed out "Why does this faction exist hurrr durrr".

Never mentioned deleting the army

mrFickle wrote:

Never mentioned deleting the army

That's precisely what you teed up. The following are all your own words from this thread:

"Is this army a bad idea?"

"This army doesnt make sense"

"I dont like the idea of this army"

The endgame is abundantly clear.

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

Dont start a thread about deleting an army if you're not prepared to have people challenge you on it. If you have questions about Deathwatch as a mechanical faction in 9th edition, there is a thread for that. If you have questions about Deathwatch lore, there is an entire subforum for that. Instead you trundled into the General discussion and tossed out "Why does this faction efxist hurrr durrr".

You're projecting, my dude.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

What, are we looking forward to a whole range of "super-Primaris" on 40mm bases in 10th edition that invalidates all the Primaris?

Right now the amount of utter nonsense GW keep finding a way to shoe horn into the game if your not correct, I'll be shocked.


Wait a minuit, arn't Gravis all the marines exactly what you just described